Can you prove that CCM, NCJ and AU get larger ratings than WSW and BR?

And yes, I did think less than 30k was a joke. The opportunity was to build a 40k or 50k seater stadium so we had a world class rectangular venue for our biggest games. Instead we have to use Marvel (which is now AFL owned) or the MCG because people were too concerned with how our smaller games might look on TV. And most fans still prefer Marvel due to the excellent transport system for regional fans

I dont have a problem with teams using smaller venues to avoid large rental fees. But to build a stadium and then cap it at 15k is stupid. They will be the only professional team playing there and only 11 games a year. Fans can expect to pick up the bill

I don’t understand your logic.

If their modeling has this as the right sized Stadium, why would anyone think that making it 10-15k bigger makes any sense?

The larger the stadium, the more costs to maintain and more empty seats they will likely have. Simple.

It's a club owned stadium, why should they pay more to suit anyone else's needs?

MV, WSW and AU all out grew their stadium. Adelaide seem to be stuck with theirs. WSW have been homeless which many argue has been damaging to their momentum

Do we learn our lesson? No, of course not. Pull a smallish figure out of our ass based on diminishing interest and decide thats what's required 10 or 20 years from now

If WU are going to be any larger than CCM or NCJ then they will experience every single issue that the other clubs have experienced by playing out of too small venues. This will be obvious during the very first derby game which will be 12k home fans, 1k away fans, and 2k untouched corporate / A grade / disability seats

You guys might get erect at the thought of a Sunday afternoon game in front of 8k fans that represents 53% capacity instead of 20% capacity - but our game has had nothing but trouble with venues from when it launched. Here we have a region willing to throw money behind a venue and rather than going to extra step and building (say) a 30k venue and closing off unused tiers, they would much rather build a small venue because thats all they would need if they were to play next week

Its foolish and lacks foresight. But time will tell

:laugh::laugh::laugh: What you smoking?

Average ratings each season in descending order is normally SFC, Victory, Wanderers, Brisbane-City equal, Adelaide, Perth-CCM equal, Jets, Phoenix.  I would expect WU and Macarthur both to come in about equal with Brisbane-City.

Stadiums are normally sized based on available funds which is why AAMI was eventually capped at 30k by the Government.  In this case WU's investors have capped the funding at $180m and that should deliver a 15k stadium.  With profits from the development of the large parcel of land funding the stadium and other community projects as well as returns for the developers the stadium owners will only have to cover O & M costs from stadium returns.  They intend to use the stadium for their W-League and NYL teams in future as well as NPL and academy teams so the development will be well used by the club.

Not really.
Depending on the design and configuration of the stadium, the running costs on a 50k stadium versus a 25k stadium aren't much different at all.
Essential services checks and maintenances would eb a small extra cost per annum.

The only significant cost differences would relate to corporate facilities, members dining rooms and function spaces.

If you had roughly the same amount of those but just 25k extra seats 'in the outer', then the extra running cost would be a drop in the ocean.

That's not a really valid comparison given that those clubs have different levels of support bases to draw from. The only way to gauge the effect of stadium fullness on crowd numbers and TV ratings is by moving having the same team play in different stadiums, and we only have to look at how WSW crowds have plummeted. They went from 18k average in 16/17 to 12k in 17/18 to 9k in 18/19. Of course, there are confounding factors (like the general malaise of the league, although I would argue that WSWs crowd troubles are a direct cause of this) and how shit WSW have been lately, but its pretty damning that your crowd average halves in the space of 2 seasons when you go from an appropriately sized stadium to playing infront of 70k empty seats. 

While I am a little skeptical of it going ahead I’ll weight.
If it goes ahead...

Were talking about $180m which is largest private investment this sport has seen on our shores in terms of footballing infrastructure.
Yes 15000k stadium might seem err a little limited in terms of capacity in gives a low risk option for the investors to get ROI as quickly as possible to make the exercise worthwhile.

Expecting a privately funded 30k capacity stadium in Tarneit which costs in excess of $300m isn’t realistic to demand. From what I can gather these phantom investors don’t have endless bags of money to develop a stadium which far exceeds demand for 30k

Lol. They moved to venues because they outgrew their current stadium and the capacity has to be increased. The damage you are talking about is a result of being homeless because extra tiers cant be added over night

If WU manage to outgrow their 15k seater stadium they will have to go through the exact same thing

There is only one way to avoid what WSW went through - and that is to future proof by choosing a capacity that allows for growth

Dinner parties at Bluebird’s must be a delight 

Plus if the stadium was at 30k it will probably cause more problems . Ie more car parking. More traffic on the  roads which are severely lacking down in wyndham

So you want them to dump 10s of millions (on top of the already ~200 million they're already investing) on the slim chance that they routinely pull over 15k a year? Sheesh, talk about entitlement. 

At least there would be plenty of seating

Must say that view doesn’t align with my previous experience in stadium operations. 

Looking at this new WU stadium though, I would say the $180 million would also include some of the surrounding infrastructure, including the Academy/training complex and planned 2nd mini stadium next door that they had mentioned in the past. In the world of construction in this country, $180 million doesn’t go anywhere near as far as one would hope.

Venues arent built for their average capacity, they are built based on their maximum capacity

It doesnt cost much to maintain empty stands, but it can cost $300m to turn a 20k seater boutique stadium into a 30k seater fit for purpose stadium

15k seats means no Socceroos, touring internationals, derbies (?), finals, and it would likely exclude any other professional tenants. Its easy to see why the cost is being offset by a commercial area because they will only have up to a dozen paid games a year

The cost of rebuilding a venue is almost the same as building from scratch

After seeing MV and WSW become homeless for a period of time, and AU lose big games from their traditional home, you guys still think that 15k for an A League team is a smart decision

Last season was one of the worst in the league's history and 7 teams managed to get a higher attendance than 15k

What would happen if they got relegated or went belly up ?

Then there's a $180m venue in the Western suburbs of Melbourne with no primary tenant

There isnt much difference between being fucked and being totally fucked

Many would argue.

The following is obviously written by someone who doesn't understand stadiums.  ;)

"Conversely, the atmosphere will be at its best when the stadium is full to capacity and buzzing. It is therefore very important that projected average attendances are correctly gauged when determining the capacity."

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/EuroExperience/competitions/General/01/74/38/69/1743869_DOWNLOAD.pdf

10/10

And that was obviously written by somebody who doesnt understand averages

A 14k average doesnt mean 14k at every game. It might mean a range from 8k to 25k. All you have to do is look at the lowest and highest each team managed to get last season, and the final average

You wont see a game against CCM or WP full to capacity and buzzing. Only the biggest games will be

Also attendances vary from season to season based on a variety of factors. And venues are usually multi purpose.

We get it, you want them to spend many extra millions on the chances that they will far exceed what their own business model projections. 

I have an idea, maybe you could put up the cash then if you are so confident they will need the seats and that it won’t increase operational costs. It’s easy to have grabs ideas when it’s not your own money. 

There's a simple way to settle this

This season WU will be playing at a 36k capacity Oval with zero atmosphere
Next season or the season after they'll be playing at a precious little 15k boutique stadium which is going to be the savior of our code

We'll see which ground gets the better attendances...

Yep, we'll see.

Yeah, nah. If this ever comes to be, I can't see how anyone can class this a bad thing, or not being good enough.

Pfft, I wish and would be over the moon if Brisbane had a nice 25k-ish "boutique" stadium to call home. Privately owned (away from the hands/control of Qld stadium or whatever it is called). We don't need anything more. Plus, if the club can somehow mange to own their own stadium - PERFECT!!

That won't settle anything.  Attendance isn't the critical factor that is driving the project.  What is driving the project is the balance between cost and revenue.  Attendance is one of the many compromises that is made to obtain the owner's desired outcome from the available funds which is ownership of the stadium.

You also have to weigh up the alternatives such as the cost of renting a 15k boutique stadium for 13 games a year instead of paying $180m to build one

When the AFL were shopping around for expansion teams they told West Sydney that 10k was too small for their stadium. Even though in the early days many would argue that is too big, the AFL still ended up with a 25k seater stadium which they can grow into. They can give out free tickets or stack the crowd on one side or even outright fudge figures. But more importantly later on down the track they dont have to relocate during an upgrade or even pay for it out of their own pockets if the council is unwilling

The FFA did similar in shopping around for a team by forcing a venue to be part of the deal. Yet they demanded a boutique venue so their smaller crowds can look better on TV. The WU bid is no different to Canberra, Tasmania or South Melbourne but the club is willing to invest in a venue and this makes all the difference apparently - and something that is no doubt going to make them a permanent part of our game

Our game goes through fads and the boutique venue fad just happens to be the latest one

You realise a 30k stadium cost almost $800 million, right?