I'm starting this thread  so the Ashes threads aren't derailed.

Now Ricky Ponting has shared his views about Steve Smith acting like captain on the pitch saying he would have no trouble reinstating him after his 12 month ban and all his advice does not undermine Paine's authority, I strongly disagree with him. 

I'll also share a few anecdotes from reputable people from within TCA insights about players.

Many have a great problem with some professional sportspeople being feted and cocooned all their lives, without much understanding g of the real  world ouside their elite cricket  ( or other sports) bubble.

There is a view that too many current sportspeople can easily become egocentric sports star brats.

Ponting was sought out by a nurse working in Pakistan. Her job was made easier  mentioning she came from Tasmania, Ricky Ponting's home state. When she met him, she was appalled at his total lack of interest and empathy in a humanitarian cause. 

Ponting cannot understand morally, how ordinary people are so angry about Smith and Warmer cheating as leaders of Australia's cricket team.

Even cricketers of Alan Border's vintage loved having Colin Miller, who lived in a pub, and had to work in unskilled jobs in times in his cricket career playing Test cricket.

Pat Cummins, who has been a uni student for quite along time with a back injury, knows what life is outside the cricket bubble of the national team and states what a privilege it is to play for Australia. This is the value system needed for leadership. Fast bowlers' injury issues probably preclude captaincy, but Cummins has the right value system.

Tim Paine was a grade cricketer a few seasons ago, who had to work in day jobs to supplement his income. He has a very good understanding of life outside the bubble of the national team.

Senior figures in the Tas cricket team were appalled at Sandpapergate, and have quietly stated that Paine knew nothing about it and was equally appalled. Media reports ( one never knows their accuracy) claimed the Aus bowlers never wanted to play with Warner again. There must have been a lot of reconciliation  work done over the last year.

Matthew Wade works two days a week as an apprentice carpenter in Hobart, preparing for life when he retires from cricket.

Nathan Lyon was a groundsperson, not involved in youth elite programs. Ditto his understanding of life outside the Test team bubble. Unfortunately, he appears to have no leadership qualities.

Ben Hilfenhaus was a bricklayer's labourer/bricklayer.

On the other hand, the likes of Ponting, Smith, Warner (although he worked at Woolies), Michael Clarke, Shane Warne, Shane Watson, et al, have known little of life outside the cricket bubble. I surmise they are  far too forgiving of cheating, when appraising captaincy qualities.

They have been close to being professional cricketers from a very early age. Those who have retired have made lot of money from cricket and will never have to work again. They have little understanding of day to day mundane work, with no status.

Pointing isn't as popular in Tas as the likes of George Bailey, Paine, Ben Hifenhaus and now Wade. He left the state at an early age and lived elsewhere.  He still does.

Wade returned, after only leaving because he  knew Paine was the superior keeper and could not get a game.

Watson was perceived as another spoilt brat when living in Tas.

The Tassie team has been built on camaraderie and unity of purpose. National selectors knew that Bailey and VC Paine had a team working more effectively because of the sum of their parts, being greater than the individuals in it. This was reinforced by Ed Cowan and Mark Cosgrove when they moved to the Tas - the lack of ego and unity of purpose in the dressing room.

 Too many pundits are blown away by Smith's current batting ability and don't appraise him critically enough as a whole person.

This scenario  extrapolates to other sports. Look at the attitude of spoilt brats Krygios and Tomic in tennis, compared to Ash Barty. 

I'm going to appraise current players and their claims for captaincy.

Bancroft - he is tarnished with cheating, but was inexperienced and followed his leaders. ATM is struggling to hold his place. If he established himself, but  currently has head leaning too far over his bat inducing LBWs, may be an option. Seems intelligent when interviewed. Posibility? 

Warner- worst choice in the whole of Aus FC cricket. 

Usman- seems too quiet and still hasn't  quite established his place.

Smith - my views in ball tampering are well documented. Even when Smith was captain he exuded poor body language to teammates if they under performed. Obviously has good tactical nous.

Head - I thought he was the best prospect if he can establish himself  as a batter. Just viewed some footage outside the dressing groom, where a player tried to push a teammate over as he walked past. It looked like Head. If this is the case, Head is far too immature.

Wade- has a skippered Victoria and Tasmania, is a known combative cricketer. Hasn't established himself as a batter, and is a bit old. Works as an apprentice carpenter  2 days per week, also expienceing life outside the elite cricket bubble.

Paine - only issue is age and keeper isn't ideal to captain. Easily the  best leader of men. Apparently he seeks tactical advice from all players. Smart move. Has experienced life outside the elite cricket bubble.


*No bowler is ideal apart form  a spinner, who tend to have far less injuries:

Lyon - too immature, although has great experience. Often when  interviewed other players claim Lyon is behind camera operator doing silly things to distract them. Too much of a fun loving clown. hs experienced life outside elite cricket bubble though, working as a groundsperson.



*Fast bowlers have too many injury issues:

Cummins - definite leadership potential  as a leader of men. Has experienced life outside elite cricket bubble. He understood moral issue about ball tampering and possesses social intelligence and maturity. Interviews very well.

Starc - I think he interviews well. Could be  also be a clown like Lyon though.

Siddle- definitely a mature influence, but at the  end of his career.

Pattinson- fiery fast bowler, who hasn't re-estabkished himself yet.

Hazlewood - already a leadership group member. Could be a future leader, but has been outperformed by other bowlers in recent times. Interviews well.



*Others: 


Finch - I think he has all the attributes as WC captain, but just isn't god enough as a Test player yet. Would  be ideal if good enough at red ball cricket. 

Handscomb - definite leadership potential, if he can establish himself.


Thoughts?

I don't get a few of your intended points.

Pat Cummins was a superstar at just 18 years of age and was Central Contracts for years while injured dating from 2011/12 from just 18 years of age. He would have been on far far far more money than any of the faculty including even the Chancellor while studying. Not to mention he was still playing BBL.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/katich-axed-from-ca-contract-list/2749842 2011/12...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/22011584 2013/14...

There you go - in black and white. Pat Cummins has been in an elite pro sports financial bubble from just 18 years of age and was becoming a millionaire over and over while studying. Perhaps he's just a nice kid who was raised well and is grateful for his lot? 

Warner was famously a blocklayer to boot. He left school rather early iirc. Smith left school early to persue sport believing he would achieve professionalism. His parents supported him on this journey. 

I further don't get the class divide being so important. The class divide, or even perceptions of one, can be toxic to a team. It shouldn't matter if someone is a blocklayer or an accountant outside of the team. You now have me wondering if this helped cause Stuart Clarke's downfall, cos he was too booksmart outside of cricket? The wine vs beer culture was very bad in Martin Crowe's era, I thought cricket had moved past it now - especially an Australian team of millionaires. 

And finally - you should really take a gander at the FC salaries of your men's team, which are frankly more than the NZC, SA, et al teams. Even your domestic players are very very well paid with very very handsome 6 figure salaries.

But it is very difficult for Australia to find a captain, when two certain to be selected batsmen are forbidden from the role. And its not going to get any easier. Carey isn't trying to be the best keeper bat in Australia now, he also needs someone else to be a legitimate captain or become one himself. I don't envy the selectors on this one. Its difficult.

Gday Dc,
jaszyjim - thought you would expect a reply from me.
All the above is interesting, however I obviously disagree re Smith & co.
I come from a business background & view cricket as such.
I hired & fired, including those who had done the crime & served the time.
They were no different to anyone else, some good & some not, however
they were all given an equal chance & judged on current day performance.
With the attitude you seem to have regarding the trio, no one who had done crime & served
their time would get a 2nd chance.
Yes what they did was totally wrong, deserved what they were given, how they are perceived after doing their
time is how they should now be judged.
This is how I now judge all three & think all of them have handled themselves well post the event.
The main standout is obviously Smith & I believe he will captain again and ironically due to what has happened
will be a far better captain for it. As you noted re living life outside the arena Smith has now done this.
It may have been briefly but under intense scrutiny.
One thing you can be sure of, is that under his captaincy the Aussie side will be squeaky clean.
I like a captain who is emotional, gets involved and works hard all the time to manufacture a win.
The best at this is Kholi, who I consider the best captain in world  cricket & the only one
who showed the true character of himself & the game in telling his fans not to boo Smith.
This to me this is what cricket is about, there will be those who make mistakes, however the game
does not ride on one person & how it rises above the controversy and continues as the great
game cricket is, is what matters.
England to me deserves far more criticism than the trio, for the abhorrent way they encouraged the
spectators to react, which is totally against all that test cricket should be perceived to be.

Thanks for the opportunity to add my bit, as without this thread I would not have commented
& will not do so for the rest of this ashes series, even in this thread.
regards
jj

Kohli's a poor captain imo. Dhoni is clearly the on field captain setting fields and calling bowling rotation (and bats whereever he wants), and Rohit Sharma's teams have far more success - at both India intl and even IPL level. Dhoni's do at IPL level as well. Dhoni and Rohit call the big shots in the Indian team. This may be why Rohit has been brought back into the test team ahead of more deserving claims. Cos the captaincy is needed.

Morgan is a very good ODI captain. KW captained a test series win in the UAE with in/out fields which impressed me - and he has been stellar for NZ in pyjamas and the IPL. Jason Holder seems to be getting better and better as a captain. I can think of many captains better than Kohli.  

I didn't realise I delineated a class division.

I think that it helps to have had a life outside pro sport to be more rounded  in a role of leadership.

I think of Bancroft as different to the other two.

He was an inexperienced and young player in a team, not a in a leadership  role. 

I'd be happy for him to captain the team in the future.

Maybe not intentionally, but there was an "Aussie battler" flavour to your post of listing their trades. I know for a fact that trades vs professions caused a lot of problems when NZC was amateur in the 80's and early 90's. And I can tell you the toxicity it ended careers early. For both groups. Crowes vs Bracewells being the most famous. But there are more examples.

I think its something all pro teams should seek to avoid.

I thought many Aussie  players interviewed after the game  spoke  well.

Smith was good, being quite gracious.

He probably is a good onfield influence, despite not being captain. Ricky Ponting was happy to adopt this role after not being captain, but solely a player.

The team ATM is enjoying unexpected success after a lot of recent failure.

Ricky Ponting is just a class act. I know he got into trouble as a youngster, which still gets brought up all the time, but he really matured into a fine analyst, and ambassador of cricket. I love his commentary. Tactically he is exceptional despite being an unpopular captain. Gawd, what we all would have done to have had a coach like him when we were younger. 

 But tactically and analystics aside, I think what we want to see and expect from sporting idols is them being good ambassadors for their sport. Even Merv Hughes, who's career ended shamefully in South Africa, is these days a globally respected ambassador for cricket. Merv wasn't all that popular when he played with the opposition or away crowds, but he is clearly a much loved, globally, cricketing institution these days. 

Ricky loves golf and greyhounds more than cricket. And its common knowledge. But he promotes cricket first and foremost on his cricket platform, not himself. I admire that about him. These guys are given a public spotlight, its always fascinating to see what they do with it. Gilchrist and Ponting both, are just genuinely likeable people, who really do seem to appreciate how blessed they were. 

I'm changing  my mind on Smith being captain again. He contemplated giving  up cricket in his 12 month ban.

i thought his speeches and interview reposnses in victory were  quite gracious and mature after the First Test.

He wasn't  a perpetrator of the   ball tampering episode, but didn't want  to know about it.

What he will have to improve is his body language to other players on the pitch if they make mistakes.

Can't say it is anything I particularly pay attention too. NZ has been blessed with the past 5 captains all being statesmen of the game in Flemming, Vettori, Taylor, McCullum and now Kane Williamson, where all (bar perhaps only Taylor) are globally revered cricket statesmen. But it depends on the setup, Australia has a system in place where Langer is in firmly in charge right now. NZ had that under Hesson. Whereas it is widely believed that Williamson is most likely in charge under Stead. (Though NZ had a new captain every 2 years when I was growing up, Howarth, Coney, J Crowe, Wright, M Crowe, K Rutherford, L Germon all in the space of just of a decade more or less!!!!!!)

England, Strauss, Cook, and Root all kept their noses clean to a large part. But head office called the shots. Strauss retired and was rewarded swiftly into being part of the head office.

Holder is a different one for the WI, but they were desperate, and just threw him in there - young, raw, and not even a certain starter in the ODI team if the t20 rebels played, and it seems to have paid off.

South Africa were left in a spot where ABdV and Amla didn't want it, so Faf was the logical choice.

I don't think there is a logical choice for test captain of Australia past Lyon. He is only 31. Got a fairly clean record bar his ex wife's complaints. But Michael Clarke bounced back from Bingle and got captaincy.

I would like to see the petulant and sulky youth, but highly intelligent and talented cricketer that is Rabada become SA captain. But it will be Markram after Faf I imagine. They've been grooming him for the role. But I'd love for it to be Rabada. If they had a black cricketer, who deserves to be there, start complaining about the excessive quotas, there could be changes. Plus their first African black captain would still be something for the whole country to celebrate.

The Kiwis have done well with captains.

We have - but I think I know the reason for it. Our batting depth has historically been so weak, and Vettori, Flem, McCullum, KW, Taylor were identified so young, and their spots never in question, that they knew at a very early age they would most likely be captain one day. 

Smith had basically been fighting to be in the team, from the same state as the existing captain, and then after less than a year in 2014 was made captain in Michael Clarke's absence because Haddin didn't want the role. He had never been properly groomed for the role.

Faf was made captain by default, but was well established as an intl cricketer pro.

I think these differences matter. 

Ponting, Clarke, were all groomed for the job. S Waugh got it after having played 14 years of intl cricket. 

Border didn't want it, nor expect it, but was marvellous at it. But I think he a rarer breed. I think Taylor got it on popularity, tbh. Both within the team, and with the public as he was always good with the media, like Healy. G Marsh was often the VC in Border's era. But it was pretty easy to chuck a ball to McGrath and Warne for Taylor. I don't think Taylor was a good captain. The team did not demolish opposition the way the same team did under S Waugh playing with more purpose. Taylor would win a 3 test series 1-0, S Waugh would go for 3-0. But S Waugh always seems, even to this day, more shy of the press than Taylor.

Kane has grown to deal with media very well. Like Flem and Vettori. But you can still tell he'd rather be elsewhere than be interviewed on camera. Whereas Taylor and McCullum visibly love the media spotlight. I personally don't like for what I see as McCullum's desire for publicity myself and don't quite fully understand the aura, or cult like following he has in cricket. He isn't my cup of tea. But I like Sangakarra and Botham, even Thommo, for example. I simply don't personally like a lot of what he says that much. Further, I get irritated that because while McCullum gets the plaudits, I put more of NZ's success under McCullum down to Hesson first and foremost, and Boult and KW... I didn't like Hesson when he sacked Taylor from the captaincy, but I was wrong, and it was the right move in history, which most will now agree. But I had no idea what changes Hesson was going to bring. He very soon won me over as a hands on - in charge - coach with great tactical nous. McCullum executed Hesson's vision, which was modern and fresh, and caught some, arguably more talented teams on the hop with clearly thought out plans and strategy. 

I think Smith likes the media. I think he is handling them well these days.

I think under Langer, the captain is less important than it was under Lehmann. Some coaches are far more hands on than others. Arthur, Langer, Hesson - they want to call the shots and tell the captain what to do. The likes of Lehmann, Ravi Shastri, etc, they are there to support the captain. It doesn't matter which combo a team has between captain and coach, as long as it is a winning one. Hesson told McCullum what to do, Stead supports KW, as long as NZ keeps performing at a level where I am proud as a fan, I am content. I don't rank Stead highly as a coach, but NZ has done very very well under him - only losing an odi series to India at home. But I put NZ's success down solely to KW at this stage. As does most the world. Everyone can see its his team. And he calls the shots. And the quite possibly now the selections.

So put simply, the captain needs to be ready for the role, which is achieved via maturity and years, of either through state captaincy or stable intl experience, or simply being a long time pro, or if they are appointed young, have been groomed for the role. The captain must mesh with the coach, the dynamic must be clear who is in charge. Kohli vs Kumble ended badly as both wanted to be in charge. Langer has made it clear he is in charge of Australia. Hesson couldnt get Taylor to execute what he wanted, so he got McCullum who would do it. Stead lets KW run what he wants. Faf is allowed to do as he pleases. Arthur likes to be in control of his teams. Root does as he is told, but Morgan, Farbraze and Bayliss work together.

Because I never played at an elite level, I offer no opinion on the better method between captain and coach being in charge. But someone needs to be calling the shots. I know Shane Warne believes in captain's team. And he loathed analytical coaches like Buchanon. Ian Chappel believes in captains team, but is more than well aware in his era that the selectors were always looming, having watched Bill Lawry get sacked. I am a fan of analysts. I like coaches who hire them. I like captains and coaches who implement analytical strategies. But whether it is the captain or coach in charge, I am indifferent. Just perform well. And the get the selections right. Talk gibberish on camera in the interviews if you winning. But if and when losing, I really want to hear what they're saying to turn it around.

Langer, what he did, was pretty simple and pretty smart. He brought in Steve Waugh. 

In the Murdoch press Langer has just said basically that Paine is doing great job as captain and it is  his for as long as he wants it, given his keeping is good enough.

I can't get over how some seem to think that the best player in the team , should be the captain. Leadership and performance are two different  things.

Langer has said that Smith has been exhausted from so much time in the middle in the Ashes series, and that the captaincy load could be  too much. Also, Smith gives a lot of onfield tactical advice without the burden of captaincy.

The difference between Paine and Smith is maturity and leadership of men.

Something in the media about Cummins taking over the captaincy when Paine retires.

There is some thought that Smith is at his most effective when he just has to think about batting. He was exhausted from Ashes after spending so much time in the middle.

Cummins reckons he might not be any good as captain! He loves Paine being captain.

With Carey scoring runs, it is always good to keep the pressure on. If Paine loses keeping form though, there is no good successor as skipper ATM. 

DC you have hit the nail squarely on the head with this insite into the national team bubble. I dont blame the players I blame both the administrators and the media for putting these cricketers up on a pedestal.. whether they deserve to be there or not.  

I read this too KW. Smithy does not appear to be champing at the bit to regain the captaincy. He comes across to me a man who is better being left to his own devices and not have things muddy the waters. Being captain again will do that. We have the world's best batsman at our disposal.. to ask him to also captain a side that is not exactly setting the world on fire is perhaps asking too much of him. I can not imagine how difficult mentally it is to carry a side with your bat and have to concentrate on who is bowling or what tactic to use next to gain the ascendancy in a game.

Spot on DC. Hats off to Smith for taking the captaincy at such a young age. Is now time to pass it on to someone more worthy as a leader.. very much in the mould of Tim Paine. Still Tim is likely to hold the reins for at least this summer. He may play on. CA wont sack him so it will be his decision alone when to leave.

Oh get out of here. Yes they will. They sacked Lawry. Chopped Border (this was brutal, made him retirement series in SA - that was cruel). Took out S Waugh on ODI cricket. Chumped Healey as long term vc. And I don't know, but I would guess shoulder tapped Taylor and Ponting both. They could never get the Chappels, cos the Chappels retired themselves in advance to avoid it - seriously, Ian is very very very vocal on this. 

CA is about results. And pursuing excellence. Its not about loyalty, that's a weak excuse offered by QRL when there were no other players to select anyway. 

Paine has this summer. As soon as a batsman not involved with ball tampering, cements his spot in the team, Paine is in big big big trouble with Carey or any other good keeper bat in form. 

The only Aus captain given rope for being captain that I know of in modern times is Mark Taylor. He was given a life line for not making runs by Bevan bowling and late order batting in test. Even then, Taylor retired pretty damn young... 

 CA wont can him if Langer has anything to say about it. Read his piece in the Tele.

You actually still trust Langer?

Langer is pretty keen on keeping Paine as captain until he retires according to media articles.