Three times key stakeholders in Australian Football have applied a scorched earth policy and destroyed what was there and set up a new.

In 1955 in the Sydney competition,
The NSL in the 70’s
Hal in the 00’s

Frank Lowy was a key player in each revolution, all started with a bang and ended badly. Well Hal has not ended but declining.

It leaves two questions, do we want to destroy Hal and start again ? or Do we develop and change Hal ?

Personally for me I think the various fractions if Hal fell over would have trouble putting in place a commonly agreed format… So for me I would prefer to develop and change Hal for whats needed and with the new governance model, clubs now in charge of Hal, a second division forming, new CEO of FFA seemly coming from Football.... Change is happening the speed can be argued but you can't argue change is not happening.

 Open question , scorched earth and destroy Hal… or Develop and change Hal

Good luck with this one Mid ... 

Yer.... there are some on here who seem to believe we should be rid of Hal and start afresh again... be interesting to hear their arguments and any counter arguments... 

Despite other codes and limited interest, there is enough money in our game to make it viable

WU paid over $15m for a licence just recently and are looking at building a venue (and they were one of 16 bidders). We also have international interest as seen with CFG. We have global sources of revenue other codes can only dream of, and a global audience others can only dream of


Yet our league has been painted into a corner by the way we have to do things. Myths of Australian sports fans and culture that see a standard template applied to everything we do. How to balance the playing field (do we even know what sport is?), how to make things more entertaining, how to maximise metrics, etc...

To me this is the biggest killer of the game. The only way forward is to ask FIFA and the AFC for help. Get them to do for us what every other league except for MLS has done. And the decent amount of revenue and interest will ensure it is a success. Not the most popular, not sold out venues every week, but enough to be viable and internationally competitive

Until then we'll just see this continual loop of failure and arguments over which handful of entities gets the money

Well said.

You have missed the point.... to get to where you want Football to get too...

Do we develop and modify / change Hal... or do we blow Hal up and start a fourth attempt to start again... 

If we blew up the A League the starting point will be a stand alone league with one team per city and strategic regions represented. There would be a salary cap to avoid a Scotland type situation with two regions having significantly more buying power than the other regions

In other words we would end up with the A League again

The A League is a necessary starting point but once you take the product out of the box, you throw the box away. This is where the FFA went wrong

The FFA not only lacked the ability to take the A League to the next step, but the later half of the FFA even showed resistance. Even lecturing us about why we had to keep things the way they were and the next step would be catastrophic

Whether you want to fly to Hobart or England, you still have to go to the airport first. Sadly for our sport, our destination was the airport itself

I don’t think the HAL is that bad that we need to blow it up and start again.

a few slaps in the face should do it

HAL needs to get to 16 teams and play Home and Away for a season or two (until HAL 2 is sorted)
The top of the ladder is Champion
Bottom 4 team should play off - (Home team drawn at random) to select bottom team
They then go into  promotion and relegation game with top team from HAL 2 home n away.

"Reverse finals". Play-off series to determine the worst team in the league.

That'll draw the punters in!

It is a question that can’t be answered in isolation imo. 

HAL
Championship (NSD) 
NPL
Capital/City/Regional Leagues 

should form the four layers of our pyramid climbing from amateurs to semi-pro to elite professional levels of the game. 

The HAL has to exist within that framework and, even if it’s not automatic, promotion between layers needs to happen 

(it’s comical to hear NPL sides argue for pro/rel in QLD when they themselves don’t allow the Queensland pyramid to connect) 

Waz

I am all for two div's with 16 teams each...

That means adding 20 teams... 

The first say dozen almost pick themselves... but the next 8 hhhmmm... anywho... for me you are right Hal needs to merge into the top level of Australian Football... in part Team 11 & Campbelltown both have formed close alliances with local associations... I still think the answer lies with the associations... making both Hal & NPL teams extensions of regional associations... 

The NPL + HAL teams must be separate and funded without  Regional Association time or money. These Regional Association will find it easier to fund from within football than go out and find independent sponsors -  which would cripple grass roots football with levies 

That though process is kinda contrary to how football works generally, which is typically club based and tribal. 

In areas with low low populations it might work eg townsville but in areas with large football populations eg Football Brisbane you already have half a dozen teams with A League ambitions and under the NPL another dozen teams wanting promotion. 

The key to expansion though is timing.  It need not all happen in ten years although I do believe if we can put growth in to club football then we can expand quicker than where we are now. 

The independent HAL will add the 4. The Championship need to find 16. I don't think it would he hard to identify the likely candidates. 

I'm in line with this. 

My take is that the HAL will expand in "strategic" areas. This can also be read as where the the Indy HAL are happy for expansion. Canberra, Wollongong, Team XI, Tas and Auckland top that list.

Given that the Championship has been delayed again I also expect to see the HAL clubs running reserve/youth teams next season instead of the NYL.

There is no starting again.
We have to make this work somehow.

I said it on another thread, but the first thing that needs to happen is to fix the salary cap issues. and it needs to happen now or else it will be too late for next season. 

No salary cap will keep 6 teams in the top 6 and you will end up with 10 teams (If we get to 16 target) fighting for the minors.
With no cap you will need a minimum number  locals in each squad.
It could end with all clubs foreign owned.

Easiest way to fix it is to scrap it.


Why in the world is that actually an issue? Clubs that are able to invest will be successful, you'll end up with a multi tiered competition that will allow for different narratives to occur.

It all comes down to planning. That means actually having a plan and not just bumbling along and hoping things change. We have seen the Asian leagues improve steadily while we stagnate as a direct result of them planning for their future. We need to do the same. Goals need to be set so they can be worked towards. If P&R is in our future, then they need to set it as a firm goal and work towards it. We always seem to have this attitude of 'we'll talk about X when we are ready for X' and then 'ready' never comes. We need to be saying 'we want to achieve X, what steps do we need to take to be ready for X'. There also needs to be some proper analysis of the league to date, just like Jack Reilly proposed to do when he was at the FFA before they gave him the boot.

This has libel written all over it lol

-PB

Reform is likely required but it will be more structural/model based, not a destroy and rebuild approach. 

The most logical thing to do is develop the HAL, however, as history has shown, the inherent self interest means that no real change will occur anytime soon so it may blow itself up anyway. Wether anything would be able to come out of those ashes is a big question.

I would develop, What we need to do is a period of reconciliation

Firstly I would re-introduce the Melbourne knights as the team of West Melbourne and have WU develop as a Western Victoria team based in Geelong.

Secondly bring back in Sth Melbourne, Brisbane Strikers, Wollongong Wolves and Adelaide City. (Sydney O, Sydney U and Marconi miss out until P+R comes in) 

Thirdly head hunt Auckland City, Sth Hobart 

Fourthly reserect dead clubs Canberra Cosmos Perth Kangaroos, Eastern Pride 

Finally  this takes us to 22 clubs have one season where there is a top 10 finals with the bottom 12 forming the 2nd division 

You forgot fifthly, invent a magic money tree that pays for all of this stuff.

Also resurrecting dead clubs with tiny fan bases and terrible stadiums like Knights and Eastern Pride (omg) is about the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

Going back to the dreary NSL days is not going to save the A league.  There must be a lot of young people in here, who simply don’t understand how bad the NSL, when a 5k turnout was applauded and something to be proud of rather than ridiculed.  

So what you’re proposing is the Lowy model on steroids where we select the teams based on some arbitrary criteria or other preference rather than allow the notion of footballing merit and relevant other factors to decide. 

Short term Yes, long term No

I actually think much of the blame does go back to the FFA loosing focus on the HAL around the World Cup bid.

There was expansion around that time that seemed to be badly executed, but as it didn’t have its eye on the game it lost control of things and it has struggled to get it back since.

In the end for the FFA, running the game's best interests along with the a-league was too much to handle as both need attention.

At the start till 2010 it made sense to run both but after that we started to see some flaws in that theory and we know the rest from the congress era.

No point blowing it up, it's not a video game when you can just press pause or replay.

Million and millions of dollars have been spent from the owners, whom in 2005 started on a piece of paper and a little handout by John Howard as a gift to Frank Lowy.

Now they finally have their investment into their hands and it's up to them to upturn the fortunes of the league's overall interest.

This season is always seen as a transitional season, but the next one i suspect a bigger input from the independent league group.

We can't afford another period where there was no league for about 2 years, it would be a big set back.

We have to remember Lowy's achievement in getting the A-League off the ground (also getting us into Asia, etc).

I doubt there's another Lowy waiting in the wings with that kind of pull with the Government.

You just have to look at our new Chair, or the senior members of the new board.

There is no one who could re-do what Lowy achieved if we had to start from scratch.

Why do you think a single individual would be needed?

There is no option but to grow the league from what exists now.  Hopefully the separation document covers the interests of football adequately so its up to the clubs what to do now.

Whatever is the shortest path to two divisions.
The top division in hindsight should have had two teams for Brisbane,Adelaide and Perth and three in Melb and Syd.
Add in Canberra,Newcastle,Woolongong and Hobart.

Any other teams should have been in the second division and earnt the right to be promoted.

It didnt happen that way.So the best way to proceed from here is to start a second division and promote teams until we have 16 in the top division.

I think destroying the only professional football competition  this country has ever had is a brilliant idea.

That way, a fully professional muli-tier pyramid with huge financial backing, improved ratings and crowds can spring up overnight.

Agreed. I think we get libel to run it, he/she seems to know everything and is the lowy family’s biggest fan. 

if the salary cap is removed and victory,sydney or city become one of the best teams in asia that would be pretty cool 

It would also increase the profile of Australian football attracting further investment. Imagine if CFG was able to utilise MC as a vehicle to drive their brand in Asia, they purchased the necessary land and developed their own stadium etc. creating not just a revenue stream but a capital increase in the value of the club. A win/win for them and football overall. Other clubs could attract the same sorts of investment, people are after marquees etc to help drive mainstream media interest - well removing artificial impediments would help that to occur.

Saying all this I would realistically expect that there really wouldn't be much change in the way most of the clubs operated other than they would create football budgets that were more in line with the revenue they could generate.

Is anybody seriously still advocating a continuation of the salary cap? 

The PFA seems to like it.

Actually, they want it gone, based on John Didulica's opinion.

I am glad they are listening to their members as the previous strongly held opinion was that the salary cap was the only thing preventing the A League clubs from paying their players a pittance. They also believed that it was the most effective way to drive up player wages in Australia. They of course were wrong.


A League clubs don't generate income through merchandise, the FFA does and then distributes it via the dividend payment made to each club.Sponsorship is direct club income, one of the few forms of revenue they can bank on next to corporate sales.

Also success cannot be bought in Australia for a football club due to the restrictions that are placed on the finances of all clubs in order to create an artificially "level" competition - I think a better description to "level" is mediocre, as in it encourages mediocrity rather than excellence.

So Adelaide's run in the AFC Champions League was "mediocre"?

Wanderers winning it was "mediocre"?

Roar under Postecoglou were mediocre?

Every starting player in the 1-2 loss against World Champions France in 2018 having played in the  A League was also  "mediocre"?

How are those questions exactly relevant?

How good are CCM? What does WP actually do for Australian football? What is the purpose of PG having the oldest playing list? Why can't I get a cevapi at an A League game?

The relevance is obvious.

You're talking about a league and capped system that is- what- 15 years old and in that time has produced 2 teams that played in the final of the AFC Champions league, one of whom won it. The best in Asia!  In what sense is this encouraging "mediocrity"?

The same League produced all 11 players that took it up to the current World Champions AT THE WORLD CUP.  How is this "mediocre"?

As far as the Mariners go, 4 of that starting 11 in that game played for them including the captain.  And don't get me started on their domestic achievements under Arnold who went on to coach the NT.

Melb City spend more than anyone else and have no where near the achievements of excellence of the Mariners.  

The purpose of PG havng an older squad is to win the league, same as everyone else.

What does Cardiff and and Swansea add to English football?

Cevapi are made with meat slightly above pet food grade.  

dp

Define 'produced' bc if we're going by the definition that's universally-accepted across the football world, the HAL clubs haven't produced sh1t:exclamationmark: Admittedly through no individual fault of their own, but still...

played for or in before they made their bigger money transfer.

As I've edited in my prev. post, admittedly it's not the HAL clubs' fault intrinsically bc they weren't initially started up w/the aim of developing their own player pool from@ least U-14-15 level, for instance - thankfully that's begun to be remedied. But only a handful of guys - Rhyan Grant being the 1st immediate eg. to my mind - can qualify to be 'products' of HAL clubs in line with the traditional definition.

What about Singh and Rogic?

I mentioned Grant bc he actually transitioned to senior football with Sydney FC from their own NYL side. Rogic played his youth football with the Australian National University NPL side in Canberra FFS. Likewise Singh doesn't count bc he spent more of his formative years w/this mob https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onehunga_Sports than he did w/the Nux's junior setup:Whistling:

Singh was 15 1/2 years old when he got signed.

I would think that during the transitional period any player that went on from a season or two in the NYL to become an established senior squad player in the A-League could be considered an A-League product.

A quick check of the Socceroos cap list shows:-
Borello
Jeggo
Grant
Deng
Mabil
Arzani
Petratos
Jurman
Geria
Risdon
Ibini
Sainsbury
Halloran
Brilliante
Ryan
Behich

There are also quite a few that have gone from state institutes straight to A-League clubs at a young age that might be considered A-League products.

Still waiting for our comp to produce class players. Not many have come through. We have yet to have a player who began their career in the A League score at the World Cup. 

And yet we have a whole group of players who came through the A League and WON the Asian Cup.

Yeah that was great, wouldn't say whole but the majority were players who started in the A-League were in the squad. I think of the starting line up in the final Jedinak, Milligan made their debuts in the NSL, Luongo never played in the A-League, neither did Davidson. Cahill never started in the A -League ether. So that was almost half of our starting line up. 

All of these are one offs, I know we had this discussion before with the Socceroos at the World Cup but how does a salary cap got to do with Socceroos players as being mediocre? 

We aren't like the rest of the world.  Football at the elite level here is a minor sport so there isn't much money in the game.  The salary cap is a mechanism to moderate player costs so that the clubs have money left to allocate to all of those other areas of the business that are essential for the operation of a professional club.  Has it worked is another question.

As per the HAL website the purpose of the cap is as follows:

• The Salary Cap facilitates competitive balance and parity between Clubs by ensuring that the playing talent is distributed amongst the Hyundai A-League Clubs. In doing so, this increases the attraction of the competition to fans, sponsors and broadcast partners.
• The Salary Cap also safeguards the economic viability of the Hyundai A-League by ensuring that Clubs are not put in a position where they are forced to spend beyond their financial capabilities in order to stay competitive on the field.