Aus v NZ 2nd Test


Aus v NZ 2nd Test

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grazorblade - 26 Dec 2019 11:20 AM
10 overs down

NZ wasting the conditions with a lot of wide balls, very few balls with good seem position

The Kiwis tightened up in the second hour.



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Missed a lot of the day's play.

Did anyone see Santner bowl?

How did he go on a first day MCG pitch?
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Decentric - 26 Dec 2019 7:02 PM
grazorblade - 26 Dec 2019 4:35 PM

Without Ferguson, they aren't really a serious threat.

It seems that Wagner bowls very accurate short balls and seems to hit the pitch hard for a bowler of moderate pace. So many of his balls need to be played.  Conversely, our quicker bowlers, often bowl short balls that don't need to be played or over head high at speeds of 135 - 145kph.

Yes, and world cricket still permits 150km/h bowlers to bowl balls at head height. Its not been a safety issue - it used to be an intimidation issue, but that only covered the head high stuff. Not elbows and ribs.

Wagner is bowling under the shoulders, its not head high stuff, and the Aussie batsmen seem to be okay wearing them on the back, gloves, elbow etc.

I'm sure facing Mitch Johnson, Jeff Thomson, DK Lillee all would have been much scarier and unsafe for batsmen. 

Leg theory is a legitimate theory, its not bodyline at the head with no helmet and 4 down in fine leg, these balls are at a heaight to pull IN FRONT OF SQUARE, they only at Wade's elbow.

The batsman already has the head high bouncer rule, only 2 behind square, the batsman has all the rule changes in his favour. Wagner has just found a way to succeed within these rules, and I expect more bowlers to copy him globally.

Why should Wagner be forced to bowl length outside off? Its cricket, not baseball. We don't need a strike zone. We have a crease. :P If Wagnerline need a rule change, just get rid of all bouncers ever. And place a speed cap on fast bowlers bowling too fast, cos that is scary and people could get injured and hurt. A 140km/h speed limit would improve player safety a lot.

I will check - but I dont think Wagner has ever retired hurt any batsman ever. Walsh had lots.. Akhtar, Roberts, all have more than a few... Thommo and Lillee of course. Marshall famously sconned many. Thommo said this 

Jeff Thomson is often regarded as one of the fastest bowlers to have ever played the game and once speaking about his approach to the game as a bowler, he said, “I enjoy hitting a batsman more than getting him out. I like to see blood on the pitch.”


https://cricket.yahoo.net/news/10-times-bowler-knocked-batsman-154738602

I dont think NZC need to worry about Wagner's legacy in the world game ;)
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10 Months Ago by Paddles
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jaszyjim - 26 Dec 2019 2:36 PM

Current weak spots that could be changed to strengthen the team (keeping out of the Paine discussion)
to me are Burns & Head.
Interested to hear others thoughts




Head has an average of 40  so is doing better than I though he was. 

Burns has about 4 centuries and a 97, but seems to get out for quite a few low scores too.
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grazorblade - 26 Dec 2019 12:36 PM
If you see wagner in the street throw a rock at his face 50 times. Apparently that makes you a great competitor (eyeroll)

(In case there are any kids reading, don't actually throw a rock at his face. That was sarcasm)

I've never seen you post anything like this before, Grazor! 



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Brew - 26 Dec 2019 7:31 PM
jaszyjim - 26 Dec 2019 2:36 PM

Head has an average of 40  so is doing better than I though he was. 

Burns has about 4 centuries and a 97, but seems to get out for quite a few low scores too.

He got an unplayable ball today. Just really unlucky. It was a total jaffa. It was swinging back in, as you can expect with Boult and a new ball, but despite all the swing, I am sure it seamed in off the pitch as well. it seemed to jag back. Watch a replay. Balls like that - they don't even reveal techincal faults. That was the perfect ball. Boult will bowl a ball that good, 1 every thousand balls. To get that line, pitch, swing, to get the nibble off the pitch, it was just a jaffa.  Those are the ones you wish you get Kohli or Smith with. Not have them wasted on Burns tbh.



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Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:20 PM
Missed a lot of the day's play.

Did anyone see Santner bowl?

How did he go on a first day MCG pitch?

Terrible.

Labu and Smith treated him with sheer and utter disdain. 

He was pulled from the attack rather swiftly.

Hopefully he will be dropped for Syndey - finally.

Mark Waugh doesn't seem to realise this, but NZ's premier spinners are in fact;

Will Sommerville and Ajaz Patel, who have spun NZ to wins in Asia vs SL and Pak. 

Astle is also a better wicket taking bowler than Santner. 

The Santner selection has been upsetting many kiwi fans for a while now. Before Perth. BEFORE PERTH. 



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grazorblade - 26 Dec 2019 1:12 PM
I once had someone bowl every ball short during a net session to be a jerk because the coach wasn't watching. I didn't have a helmet but I pulled/hooked every ball anyway. Fortunately i didn't get hit. People need to understand that there is a lot of machismo in cricket culture which means pressure to pretend you aren't bothered by that sort of bowling lest you come across as letting the bowler get inside your head. So all the pressure is to say "its fine, I have no problem with these tactics"

Thats why its up to the fans and media to call out these bodyline tactics. They don't make you a "great competitor" they make you a poor sportsman against the spirit of cricket

I mean people forget that these are people out there in the middle, who cares about the entertainment value. We had someone die from a short ball with full modern protective gear.  I get why we can't make things perfectly safe 100% of the time in life and the short ball is here to stay. But I've never seen the short ball used so frequently.

Whether it happens in this series or when NZ play some other team, sooner or later there will be a serious injury or worse.

Were you ready for a broken f**** arm? Wagner isn't bowling at people's heads like Johnson, Thommo, and Starc do and did. He aint bowling beamers like Brett Lee neither. He has set a field, and bowls short stuff. If the field wasn't set, it would be easy run scoring. 

Wagner hit Wade's head, cos he ducked into in the ball! Wade is a short man! These balls are not high. They're just not. They're just far to short to drive or leg glance. They are hip to shoulder. Hip to shoulder.

An anecdote from me, at high school in the nets, around 15/16 - if you wore a helmet, you got short stuff as fair game. If you didn't wear  a helmet - you didn't. We used to have these concrete half nets with astro turf - but if the bowler went short - it was off the natural baked turf. (if he bowler hit the ridge between the baked turf and the concrete with astro, well anything could happen tbh) So the speed of the bouncer was slower on the baked turf, but man it got high on you fast because you were literally batting on two different pitches at once. This is the critical difference. The astro would skid, fast and low. Easy batting. THe hard turf might have slowed it down, but suddenly the ball is at your head. It just would get so high seemingly so fast, even if slower off the turf. On game days, you play on one pitch, but these practice pitches were half and half. Just totally different surfaces. The rule was simple. You want to wear a helmet. You get bouncers if the bowler wanted. The school I went to even had full grass nets. The only school in Auckland if not entire of NZ to have those.  But def Auckland... We used to get intl teams (cricket and rugby) training on the school grounds all the time. But those half and half nets. Man they were a challenge. At 13 and 14, noone is bowling short stuff, at 15 and 16 - they are physically starting to be able to. And on a half and half net, my gawd. It was a challenge.

But Wagner is not bowling at the head. Stop sooking. And he's medium. He isn't breaking arms, cleaning out teeth, or doing damage like Mitch J 2013/14 or Thommo 74/75... 

He is a short medium pacer. Bowling under people's shoulders. And you're whinging....

Not that it matters, but in the 3.5 years of him doing this, Aussies are the first moaners about. Not even England whinged. 2 series vs them. SA - fine with it. They did it to everyone at home anyway with MMork, Olivier and Ngidi. Asian teams - no issues. Just Aussie fans with an issue with it. I hope they hated Mitch J and Lillee and THommo more for bowling at heads.
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Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:19 PM
grazorblade - 26 Dec 2019 11:20 AM

The Kiwis tightened up in the second hour.



yeah they were tight but the seem position wasn't great. When it was even the old ball moved quite a bit. Would have been interesting to see hazelwood on this ground!
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Paddles - 26 Dec 2019 7:36 PM
Brew - 26 Dec 2019 7:31 PM

He got an unplayable ball today. Just really unlucky. It was a total jaffa. It was swinging back in, as you can expect with Boult and a new ball, but despite all the swing, I am sure it seamed in off the pitch as well. it seemed to jag back. Watch a replay. Balls like that - they don't even reveal techincal faults. That was the perfect ball. Boult will bowl a ball that good, 1 every thousand balls. To get that line, pitch, swing, to get the nibble off the pitch, it was just a jaffa.  Those are the ones you wish you get Kohli or Smith with. Not have them wasted on Burns tbh.



Joe made it unplayable by looking to drive it. Needed the full face in defense. This is one flaw in Burn's makeup..his loose technique
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10 Months Ago by baggygreenmania
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grazorblade - 27 Dec 2019 7:59 AM
Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:19 PM

yeah they were tight but the seem position wasn't great. When it was even the old ball moved quite a bit. Would have been interesting to see hazelwood on this ground!

Yes grazor we may miss Hazlewood's metronomic seam on this grassy deck. It may turn to hay come the last two days.. 38 & 40 predicted.
I see the state of play at the end  of day 1 as just favoring us. We were sent in and we still have Smithy..who is back to his stonewalling best. Has no choice as the BC are using negative bowling tactics.  Head must be on his last chance..he really needs stay with Smith, bat time and ton up to prove to CA he can convert in difficult conditions. He got a solitary 50 from 8 innings in the Ashes and his last three Test innings have yielded 24,5,56.
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Brew - 26 Dec 2019 7:31 PM
jaszyjim - 26 Dec 2019 2:36 PM

Head has an average of 40  so is doing better than I though he was. 

Burns has about 4 centuries and a 97, but seems to get out for quite a few low scores too.

 Head is on borrowed time. CA has intimated even to the public he needs to start converting.. He needs to stop throwing away his wicket when set. Burns is ok for the time being but with only a short series against the Banglas before India next summer he aint getting any chances to impress. You will find Joe has made those 4 centuries and 97 on flat tracks. He is not the same player on moving decks.
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10 Months Ago by baggygreenmania
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 9:33 AM
Brew - 26 Dec 2019 7:31 PM

 Head is on borrowed time. CA has intimated even to the public he needs to start converting.. He needs to stop throwing away his wicket when set. Burns is ok for the time being but with only a short series against the Banglas before India next summer he aint getting any chances to impress. You will find Joe has made those 4 centuries and 97 on flat tracks. He is not the same player on moving decks.

I questioned the selectors when they chose head but after labu I'm chastened as a couch expert!
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 8:39 AM
Paddles - 26 Dec 2019 7:36 PM

Joe made it unplayable by looking to drive it. Needed the full face in defense. This is one flaw in Burn's makeup..his loose technique

Gday Paddles,
jj- That's the point I was referring to,
Attacking with a drive first ball faced is a big? & has
to be asked "what was going on in his head to make such a decision"
Is this the mind set of a test opener, as it left the gate open first ball faced.
I really liked Burns selection, however I now have a ? over it as he keeps
having these rash moments.
I would still like to see him given time to grow into the position and also
question who is mentoring him over his mindset?


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grazorblade - 27 Dec 2019 7:59 AM
Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:19 PM

yeah they were tight but the seem position wasn't great. When it was even the old ball moved quite a bit. Would have been interesting to see hazelwood on this ground!

I don’t know enough about bowling to discuss seam position, but if Test players struggle at times with it, it must be difficult to impart the ball to its maximum effect consistently. 

Baggers elucidated the scrambled seam in another post. 
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Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:20 PM
Missed a lot of the day's play.

Did anyone see Santner bowl?

How did he go on a first day MCG pitch?

You know my views on Santner KW. How is he even playing Test cricket. Frankly I dont like watching him bowl with his odd lobbing action. I did see Smithy drop kick him over the long off fence tho.

Mitchell Swepson is in the squad.. likely to play in Sydney.
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 9:33 AM
Brew - 26 Dec 2019 7:31 PM

 Head is on borrowed time. CA has intimated even to the public he needs to start converting.. He needs to stop throwing away his wicket when set. Burns is ok for the time being but with only a short series against the Banglas before India next summer he aint getting any chances to impress. You will find Joe has made those 4 centuries and 97 on flat tracks. He is not the same player on moving decks.

Good explanatory post, Baggers. 
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 10:52 AM
Keyboard Warrior - 26 Dec 2019 7:20 PM

You know my views on Santner KW. How is he even playing Test cricket. Frankly I dont like watching him bowl with his odd lobbing action. I did see Smithy drop kick him over the long off fence tho.

Mitchell Swepson is in the squad.. likely to play in Sydney.

Hope Swepson kicks on. 

We we need some more back up spinners. 

I think he has 12 wickets at 26 runs from 5 games. 
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jaszyjim - 27 Dec 2019 10:15 AM
baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 8:39 AM

Gday Paddles,
jj- That's the point I was referring to,
Attacking with a drive first ball faced is a big? & has
to be asked "what was going on in his head to make such a decision"
Is this the mind set of a test opener, as it left the gate open first ball faced.
I really liked Burns selection, however I now have a ? over it as he keeps
having these rash moments.
I would still like to see him given time to grow into the position and also
question who is mentoring him over his mindset?


https://twitter.com/7Cricket/status/1209980903159545856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1209982305131016192&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fau.sports.yahoo.com%2Fboxing-day-test-joe-burns-golden-duck-trent-boult-ricky-ponting-commentator-curse-000733744.html

Here is the replay. Burns has a straight bat face - he is playing straight down the ground, at expected strike point, the ball just came back in after being delivered accross, and he is playing down the wrong line. Burns is playing for it to straighten, cos he knew it was swinging, but it did more than straighten, it changed directions on pitching. There's not much a batsman can do there. You play for that level of swing and seam deviation normally, you are going to nick off a lot when the ball ball doesn't deviate. You bring your legs over, you're plumb lbw.
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Decentric - 27 Dec 2019 11:04 AM
baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 10:52 AM

Hope Swepson kicks on. 

We we need some more back up spinners. 

I think he has 12 wickets at 26 runs from 5 games. 

Am I the only one on here that sees this Wagner tactic as little more than Bodyline leg theory. If every second ball that is hitting or has a greater than average chance of hitting the body.. is not deemed intimidatory at least and dangerous at most..why is it not being policed. Bodyline was banned. The only way they were stopping Bradman. Now NZ sees it as the only way to stop Smith. You watch Paddles will be on in a flash to say this is legal. Well mate it shudn't be.
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 11:44 AM
Decentric - 27 Dec 2019 11:04 AM

Am I the only one on here that sees this Wagner tactic as little more than Bodyline leg theory. If every second ball that is hitting or has a greater than average chance of hitting the body.. is not deemed intimidatory at least and dangerous at most..why is it not being policed. Bodyline was banned. The only way they were stopping Bradman. Now NZ sees it as the only way to stop Smith. You watch Paddles will be on in a flash to say this is legal. Well mate it shudn't be.

Bodyline was never banned. You're making up history now. 

Fielding positions were set and maintained to only 2 behind square on the leg side post Bodyline series.

Then after Lillee, Thommo and the WI quartet went mad with bouncers in the 1970's, initmidatory bowling laws were brought in as umpire discretion, to save tail enders from losing their heads as they would do it to number 11's too. They are now further written and widely interpreted as bouncer limit laws, 2 per over and no beamers. Wagner barely bowls one bouncer per over. He aint bowling at their heads. He is a rib bowler.

If people don't want to play a pull shot, get out of the way of it. Its not going to bowl their stumps. Just move. 
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 11:44 AM
Decentric - 27 Dec 2019 11:04 AM

Am I the only one on here that sees this Wagner tactic as little more than Bodyline leg theory. If every second ball that is hitting or has a greater than average chance of hitting the body.. is not deemed intimidatory at least and dangerous at most..why is it not being policed. Bodyline was banned. The only way they were stopping Bradman. Now NZ sees it as the only way to stop Smith. You watch Paddles will be on in a flash to say this is legal. Well mate it shudn't be.

I made a separate thread about it. Its a disgrace

I'm dreading this practice spreading to underage leagues, any parents out there?
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don't mind this from paine

draw is a bigger danger than a loss in this position
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I was thinking how is this nonsense coming from new zealand, one of the nicest, civilized countries on Earth? Frequently a good example to aussies

It seems that at least some care about player safety
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grazorblade - 27 Dec 2019 12:00 PM
I was thinking how is this nonsense coming from new zealand, one of the nicest, civilized countries on Earth? Frequently a good example to aussies

It seems that at least some care about player safety

Really, if player safety was an issue you would ban bouncers altogether, and place speed limits on bowlers and use a softer ball.

Just limit runs ups, in fact, ban runs, just have windmall bowling, or t ball cones. Let the batsman hit like a golf shot off the tee.

Wagner has never even retired hurt a batsman. Real, fast and unexpected bouncers have been known to kill and remove teeth. Spare me player safety arguments. 



Edited
10 Months Ago by Paddles
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Paddles - 27 Dec 2019 11:47 AM
baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 11:44 AM

Bodyline was never banned. You're making up history now. 

Fielding positions were set and maintained to only 2 behind square on the leg side post Bodyline series.

Then after Lillee, Thommo and the WI quartet went mad with bouncers in the 1970's, initmidatory bowling laws were brought in as umpire discretion, to save tail enders from losing their heads as they would do it to number 11's too. They are now further written and widely interpreted as bouncer limit laws, 2 per over and no beamers. Wagner barely bowls one bouncer per over. He aint bowling at their heads. He is a rib bowler.

If people don't want to play a pull shot, get out of the way of it. Its not going to bowl their stumps. Just move. 

Jardine leg theory then. I dont care what you or others say this Wagner is bowling Bodyline and its bloody dangerous. You dont wear a helmet over your heart.
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 12:18 PM
Paddles - 27 Dec 2019 11:47 AM

Jardine leg theory then. I dont care what you or others say this Wagner is bowling Bodyline and its bloody dangerous. You dont wear a helmet over your heart.

A chest guard? Many batsmen do. But I don't see how its dangerous.The batsman just has to hit the ball instead of not playing a shot and wearing it on the body. Stop batting so negatively and looking to preserve wickets. Just get out, already. ;) 

 Bowling 135km/h + is dangerous and should be banned, though.  ;)

Edited
10 Months Ago by Paddles
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baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 12:18 PM
Paddles - 27 Dec 2019 11:47 AM

Jardine leg theory then. I dont care what you or others say this Wagner is bowling Bodyline and its bloody dangerous. You dont wear a helmet over your heart.

here here

also there is a difference in the long term health effects of the occasional concussion and multiple concussions over your career. No amount of safety equipment prevents the risk of concussion

crowds really need to boo the heck out of this. I hope some former players speak out
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grazorblade - 27 Dec 2019 12:23 PM
baggygreenmania - 27 Dec 2019 12:18 PM
 
here here

also there is a difference in the long term health effects of the occasional concussion and multiple concussions over your career. No amount of safety equipment prevents the risk of concussion

crowds really need to boo the heck out of this. I hope some former players speak out

LOL! And I hope the first bouncer bowled at 135km - 150km by an Aussie bowler is boo'ed and called out for player safety concerns.
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10 Months Ago by Paddles
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Santner leaking runs again. He's not allowing the NZ fast bowlers to rest. 

He's got a big problem with his action. He doesn't stay side on for long enough, so his leading arm actually tucks into his ribs instead of "pulling through". He ends up letting the ball go with his body facing the batsman. The only way you can get the ball to spin with an action like that is to make your bowling shoulder do all the work and to bowl way too round arm - so he lets go of the ball with an even more sideways arm and tries to spin it out of the side of his hand, rather than out the top. There's very little rotation of his body through the crease or over the top of his front leg, and this means he gets no loop. 

A front on action with a sideways arm is a very difficult action to control, and that's why he is spraying it all over the place. 
Edited
10 Months Ago by Lastbroadcast
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