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Burztur
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways.
And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy.
The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them.
And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that.
Bang on.
I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific.
I suspect the russian people don't even want this.
These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs'
Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump.
I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions.
In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west
It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move.
Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that.
He had no reason to
Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same.
Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald.
Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then.
But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/remember-those-russian-bounties-dead-u-s-troops-biden-admin-n1264215
“The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.”
Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump.
Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything?
Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement.
Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that.
Did they?
IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch
Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory.
Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert.
Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide.
Ukraine is not Russian territory, therefore it is not Russia's front porch. It is the house next door. The house next door is allowed to do what it wants within its own property. [/quote]Ukraine actually not allowed to do what it wants. .Neither was Cuba, remember. And in terms of the time it takes for NATO offensives and surveillance to reach the USSR, Ukraine is on their front porch Spend 7 minutes of your time and watch Putin's interview. Assuming of course you want to actually know abut the other side as opposed to what CNN, MSNBC et all want you to know Its clears as dog's balls now about why the US and NATO have been so invested in a shit hole like Ukraine most of them had never heard of. Democracy my arse. They want to set up NATO military complexes there and of course Putin won't allow that. So now you're saying that Ukraine can't decide on its own foreign policy because of events 60 years ago, when USSR (i.e. Russia) decided to ally with Cuba at the time and has nothing to do with the current situation. I also like how you're calling Russia the USSR again. Guess Putin is putting the old band back together. I've seen Putin's recent interview/speech on this (at least the translation since he did it in Russian), and I appreciate his concerns with NATO, but to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine seems to be a step too far. For what it's worth, I'm actually not following CNN and MSNBC on this. I've reading ABC, BBC and Foxnews. Also generally sceptical of reports on the ground since there is too much propaganda and misinformation flying around. I also don't think anyone is using "spread democracy" as an excuse for this one. Russia invaded another sovereign nation, and people don't like that. Pretty straight forward.
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+xIt's pretty funny that Cesspit has only managed to troll his own "side" with this account. Great stuff Yes. AJF can't see it yet but I did laugh. I think you guys are greatly overestimating cesspits intelligence I'm certainly not doing that. He is a C grade troll even by the standards of this forum This
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. +x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. Hmm, the left didnt support Iraq you say... Joe Biden Didn’t Just Vote for the Iraq Invasion—He Helped Lead the March to WarIn the wake of September 11th, Biden stood as a leading Democratic voice on foreign policy, chairing the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As President Bush attempted to sell the U.S. public on the war, Biden became one of the administration’s steadfast allies in this cause, backing claims about the supposed threat posed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and insisting on the necessity of removing him from power. https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html
Chilcot report suggests Blair made early push for regime change in Iraq
Whitehall documents reveal that Tony Blair played a far more significant role in the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Tony Blair took the initiative in urging George W. Bush to plan for regime change in Iraq, secret UK government papers reveal.
I'm talking of your 'liberal elites'& 'lefty fucktards' that were demonstrating on the streets. (The general populace.) Would confidently say the vast majority of demonstrators and anti invade Iraq sentiment was predominantly from left leaning peoples. I already said Blair was complicit and from the left in the other thread. Pretty much all of the Labour party was in bed with Howard too. Only Bob Brown had the balls to swim against the tide. The fact is you're trying, for some reason, to make out 'the left' is wrong here but not in Iraq. You can't have it both ways. These statements are the very definition of mental gymnastics Let's see if I can dumb it down for you. The left, in general, was against the war in Iraq. Except for the lefty politicians from USA, UK and Aus (as you stated above) that the left leaning voters support and vote for. There were huge protests in Sydney against Gulf War I & II . Too young to remember GWI, but I thought it was more justified back then with a UN mandate and to protect Kuwait.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. +x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. Hmm, the left didnt support Iraq you say... Joe Biden Didn’t Just Vote for the Iraq Invasion—He Helped Lead the March to WarIn the wake of September 11th, Biden stood as a leading Democratic voice on foreign policy, chairing the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As President Bush attempted to sell the U.S. public on the war, Biden became one of the administration’s steadfast allies in this cause, backing claims about the supposed threat posed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and insisting on the necessity of removing him from power. https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html
Chilcot report suggests Blair made early push for regime change in Iraq
Whitehall documents reveal that Tony Blair played a far more significant role in the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Tony Blair took the initiative in urging George W. Bush to plan for regime change in Iraq, secret UK government papers reveal.
I'm talking of your 'liberal elites'& 'lefty fucktards' that were demonstrating on the streets. (The general populace.) Would confidently say the vast majority of demonstrators and anti invade Iraq sentiment was predominantly from left leaning peoples. I already said Blair was complicit and from the left in the other thread. Pretty much all of the Labour party was in bed with Howard too. Only Bob Brown had the balls to swim against the tide. The fact is you're trying, for some reason, to make out 'the left' is wrong here but not in Iraq. You can't have it both ways. These statements are the very definition of mental gymnastics Let's see if I can dumb it down for you. The left, in general, was against the war in Iraq. Except for the lefty politicians from USA, UK and Aus (as you stated above) that the left leaning voters support and vote for. Yes. There were plenty of dissenting voices on the left side of politics but you are correct, when push came to shove the politicians fell in lockstep with what America said as is usual. We get dragged into every stupid war America goes to because we hope that when we're in the shit they'll come and help us. (But you already knew that.) That does not take away from the fact you are looking to throw shade on the 'loony' left here for being anti-Russian but not anti-Iraq when the vast majority of the protestors on the streets protesting the invasion of Iraq were from the 'left'. Sorry Muz, in you righteous outrage you have gone off on a tangent (which is what the woke community tend to do when their sacred beliefs are challenged). Re-read what I said, I am clear that I dont support or defended Putin or any war. I was just highlighting the hypocrisy of the woke folk who condemn far right anti-mandate protestors here but are happy to hold up neo-nazis in Ukraine as national heroes defending a clearly corrupt and authoritarian Ukrainian government. Unfortunately it was you who brought Iraq into this discussion not me so need to discuss why with yourself You brought it up. AJF Wrote: The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. “The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide. [/quote]Yeah so Putin never said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of the 20th Century? https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 So what? Notice you've gone all quiet about the US bringing the world to the brink during the Cuban missile. The US tried multiple times to remove Castro. And then reached for the nukes. Same same but different..
Who here would say that was good and that the US don't have blood on their hands 100 times over.
But Jesus talk about nor learning from history if that's your argument against it happening now.
It's actually a genuinely dumb thing to say.
Its the EXACT same thing. The concerns behind the current actions from Russia are EXACTLY the same thing as what the US did in Cuba. As for the learning from the past. 100% spot on. Why didn't the West learn from it? [/quote]I agree. So what exactly is your point? Burzur said: Ukraine should be entitled to self determination You said: what like US let Cuba? I said: It was wrong then and its wrong now. Why would you say because the USA did it 70 years ago Russia should be ok to do it now? - Surely we should try to not repeat mistakes of the past. You say:............? Jesus H Christ. The USSR backed off in Cuba. The West did not in Ukraine.
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ErogenousZone
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. +x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. Hmm, the left didnt support Iraq you say... Joe Biden Didn’t Just Vote for the Iraq Invasion—He Helped Lead the March to WarIn the wake of September 11th, Biden stood as a leading Democratic voice on foreign policy, chairing the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As President Bush attempted to sell the U.S. public on the war, Biden became one of the administration’s steadfast allies in this cause, backing claims about the supposed threat posed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and insisting on the necessity of removing him from power. https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html
Chilcot report suggests Blair made early push for regime change in Iraq
Whitehall documents reveal that Tony Blair played a far more significant role in the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Tony Blair took the initiative in urging George W. Bush to plan for regime change in Iraq, secret UK government papers reveal.
I'm talking of your 'liberal elites'& 'lefty fucktards' that were demonstrating on the streets. (The general populace.) Would confidently say the vast majority of demonstrators and anti invade Iraq sentiment was predominantly from left leaning peoples. I already said Blair was complicit and from the left in the other thread. Pretty much all of the Labour party was in bed with Howard too. Only Bob Brown had the balls to swim against the tide. The fact is you're trying, for some reason, to make out 'the left' is wrong here but not in Iraq. You can't have it both ways. These statements are the very definition of mental gymnastics Let's see if I can dumb it down for you. The left, in general, was against the war in Iraq. Except for the lefty politicians from USA, UK and Aus (as you stated above) that the left leaning voters support and vote for. There were huge protests in Sydney against Gulf War I & II . Too young to remember GWI, but I thought it was more justified back then with a UN mandate and to protect Kuwait. The "democracy" of Kuwait, what a laugh that was for GwI And the second was one of the biggest lies ever for GwII for the so called "WMD's" , how many people died for that & died for the partition & divvying up of the oil & the spawning of ISIS. In this Ukraine case however, Putin is just a fucking idiot, he's misread the room & this will be his Afghanistan like humiliation.
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9.1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. +x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. Hmm, the left didnt support Iraq you say... Joe Biden Didn’t Just Vote for the Iraq Invasion—He Helped Lead the March to WarIn the wake of September 11th, Biden stood as a leading Democratic voice on foreign policy, chairing the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As President Bush attempted to sell the U.S. public on the war, Biden became one of the administration’s steadfast allies in this cause, backing claims about the supposed threat posed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and insisting on the necessity of removing him from power. https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html
Chilcot report suggests Blair made early push for regime change in Iraq
Whitehall documents reveal that Tony Blair played a far more significant role in the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Tony Blair took the initiative in urging George W. Bush to plan for regime change in Iraq, secret UK government papers reveal.
I'm talking of your 'liberal elites'& 'lefty fucktards' that were demonstrating on the streets. (The general populace.) Would confidently say the vast majority of demonstrators and anti invade Iraq sentiment was predominantly from left leaning peoples. I already said Blair was complicit and from the left in the other thread. Pretty much all of the Labour party was in bed with Howard too. Only Bob Brown had the balls to swim against the tide. The fact is you're trying, for some reason, to make out 'the left' is wrong here but not in Iraq. You can't have it both ways. These statements are the very definition of mental gymnastics Let's see if I can dumb it down for you. The left, in general, was against the war in Iraq. Except for the lefty politicians from USA, UK and Aus (as you stated above) that the left leaning voters support and vote for. There were huge protests in Sydney against Gulf War I & II . Too young to remember GWI, but I thought it was more justified back then with a UN mandate and to protect Kuwait. The "democracy" of Kuwait, what a laugh that was for GwI And the second was one of the biggest lies ever for GwII for the so called "WMD's" , how many people died for that & died for the partition & divvying up of the oil & the spawning of ISIS. In this Ukraine case however, Putin is just a fucking idiot, he's misread the room & this will be his Afghanistan like humiliation. True. Oil is basically the real answer for GWI and GWII when it comes to Western intervention. But for GWI, Iraq invaded Kuwait and there was at least a mandate from the UN. No evidence of WMDs after the fact for GWII, so that was just a pack of lies. Can't say that for Ukraine.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/remember-those-russian-bounties-dead-u-s-troops-biden-admin-n1264215“The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide.
Ukraine is not Russian territory, therefore it is not Russia's front porch. It is the house next door. The house next door is allowed to do what it wants within its own property. Ukraine actually not allowed to do what it wants. .Neither was Cuba, remember. And in terms of the time it takes for NATO offensives and surveillance to reach the USSR, Ukraine is on their front porch Spend 7 minutes of your time and watch Putin's interview. Assuming of course you want to actually know abut the other side as opposed to what CNN, MSNBC et all want you to know Its clears as dog's balls now about why the US and NATO have been so invested in a shit hole like Ukraine most of them had never heard of. Democracy my arse. They want to set up NATO military complexes there and of course Putin won't allow that. [/quote]So now you're saying that Ukraine can't decide on its own foreign policy because of events 60 years ago, when USSR (i.e. Russia) decided to ally with Cuba at the time and has nothing to do with the current situation. I also like how you're calling Russia the USSR again. Guess Putin is putting the old band back together. I've seen Putin's recent interview/speech on this (at least the translation since he did it in Russian), and I appreciate his concerns with NATO, but to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine seems to be a step too far. For what it's worth, I'm actually not following CNN and MSNBC on this. I've reading ABC, BBC and Foxnews. Also generally sceptical of reports on the ground since there is too much propaganda and misinformation flying around. I also don't think anyone is using "spread democracy" as an excuse for this one. Russia invaded another sovereign nation, and people don't like that. Pretty straight forward. sigh "USSR" when referring to the Cuban missile crisis. The West was warned for years against Ukraine gaining NATO membership.
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs'
Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump.
I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions.
In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west
It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move.
Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that.
He had no reason to
Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same.
Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald.
Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then.
But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/remember-those-russian-bounties-dead-u-s-troops-biden-admin-n1264215
“The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.”
Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump.
Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything?
Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement.
Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that.
Did they?
IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch
Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory.
Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert.
Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide.
Yeah so Putin never said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of the 20th Century? https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 [/quote]So what? Notice you've gone all quiet about the US bringing the world to the brink during the Cuban missile. The US tried multiple times to remove Castro. And then reached for the nukes. Same same but different.. Who here would say that was good and that the US don't have blood on their hands 100 times over. But Jesus talk about nor learning from history if that's your argument against it happening now. It's actually a genuinely dumb thing to say.
Its the EXACT same thing. The concerns behind the current actions from Russia are EXACTLY the same thing as what the US did in Cuba.
As for the learning from the past. 100% spot on. Why didn't the West learn from it?
I agree. So what exactly is your point? Burzur said: Ukraine should be entitled to self determination You said: what like US let Cuba? I said: It was wrong then and its wrong now. Why would you say because the USA did it 70 years ago Russia should be ok to do it now? - Surely we should try to not repeat mistakes of the past. You say:............? [/quote]Jesus H Christ. The USSR backed off in Cuba. The West did not in Ukraine. USSR and Cuba are perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship they want. Ukraine is perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship it wants with Europe. If Russia wants to stop this by force, then they're only reinforcing that connection.
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Burztur
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. “The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide. Ukraine is not Russian territory, therefore it is not Russia's front porch. It is the house next door. The house next door is allowed to do what it wants within its own property.
Ukraine actually not allowed to do what it wants. .Neither was Cuba, remember.
And in terms of the time it takes for NATO offensives and surveillance to reach the USSR, Ukraine is on their front porch
Spend 7 minutes of your time and watch Putin's interview. Assuming of course you want to actually know abut the other side as opposed to what CNN, MSNBC et all want you to know
Its clears as dog's balls now about why the US and NATO have been so invested in a shit hole like Ukraine most of them had never heard of. Democracy my arse. They want to set up NATO military complexes there and of course Putin won't allow that.
So now you're saying that Ukraine can't decide on its own foreign policy because of events 60 years ago, when USSR (i.e. Russia) decided to ally with Cuba at the time and has nothing to do with the current situation. I also like how you're calling Russia the USSR again. Guess Putin is putting the old band back together. I've seen Putin's recent interview/speech on this (at least the translation since he did it in Russian), and I appreciate his concerns with NATO, but to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine seems to be a step too far. For what it's worth, I'm actually not following CNN and MSNBC on this. I've reading ABC, BBC and Foxnews. Also generally sceptical of reports on the ground since there is too much propaganda and misinformation flying around. I also don't think anyone is using "spread democracy" as an excuse for this one. Russia invaded another sovereign nation, and people don't like that. Pretty straight forward. [/quote] sigh "USSR" when referring to the Cuban missile crisis. The West was warned for years against Ukraine gaining NATO membership. Russia might not like it if Ukraine got NATO membership, but does that allow it to invade Ukraine?
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. +x+x+x+x+x+xDont agree with Putins adventure in Ukraine nor any of the USA's recent attempts at regime change in the middle east, but many of you guys hand wringing about poor innocent Ukraine probably need to get some perspective. Also love the woke warriors who recently ranted about the far right at vax demonstrations now cheering on Ukraine who is actually full of neo-nazi's I don't doubt that Ukraine is fully of issues with corruption/fringe elements/factions, etc. But it's a nice way for Russia to unite them all. The core reasoning was the same as that used by US when invading Iraq - regime is bad needs to be changed. Can recall the world reacting same way to US invading a sovereign nation Yes and which side was screaming the loudest not to invade Iraq? That's right the despised 'lefty, woke, fucktards' that's who. And yet now it's thrown in their faces that somehow the 'woke left' want to give the US a free pass but mmm'kay Russia bad. The rewriting of history and mental gymnastics on display is unbelievable. It's the left that was against the war in Iraq, Vietnam and most other conflicts. It's your Rumsfeld, Cheney's and Bush's from the right that love a good war. Hmm, the left didnt support Iraq you say... Joe Biden Didn’t Just Vote for the Iraq Invasion—He Helped Lead the March to WarIn the wake of September 11th, Biden stood as a leading Democratic voice on foreign policy, chairing the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As President Bush attempted to sell the U.S. public on the war, Biden became one of the administration’s steadfast allies in this cause, backing claims about the supposed threat posed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and insisting on the necessity of removing him from power. https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html
Chilcot report suggests Blair made early push for regime change in Iraq
Whitehall documents reveal that Tony Blair played a far more significant role in the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Tony Blair took the initiative in urging George W. Bush to plan for regime change in Iraq, secret UK government papers reveal.
I'm talking of your 'liberal elites'& 'lefty fucktards' that were demonstrating on the streets. (The general populace.) Would confidently say the vast majority of demonstrators and anti invade Iraq sentiment was predominantly from left leaning peoples. I already said Blair was complicit and from the left in the other thread. Pretty much all of the Labour party was in bed with Howard too. Only Bob Brown had the balls to swim against the tide. The fact is you're trying, for some reason, to make out 'the left' is wrong here but not in Iraq. You can't have it both ways. These statements are the very definition of mental gymnastics Let's see if I can dumb it down for you. The left, in general, was against the war in Iraq. Except for the lefty politicians from USA, UK and Aus (as you stated above) that the left leaning voters support and vote for. Yes. There were plenty of dissenting voices on the left side of politics but you are correct, when push came to shove the politicians fell in lockstep with what America said as is usual. We get dragged into every stupid war America goes to because we hope that when we're in the shit they'll come and help us. (But you already knew that.) That does not take away from the fact you are looking to throw shade on the 'loony' left here for being anti-Russian but not anti-Iraq when the vast majority of the protestors on the streets protesting the invasion of Iraq were from the 'left'. Sorry Muz, in you righteous outrage you have gone off on a tangent (which is what the woke community tend to do when their sacred beliefs are challenged). Re-read what I said, I am clear that I dont support or defended Putin or any war. I was just highlighting the hypocrisy of the woke folk who condemn far right anti-mandate protestors here but are happy to hold up neo-nazis in Ukraine as national heroes defending a clearly corrupt and authoritarian Ukrainian government. Unfortunately it was you who brought Iraq into this discussion not me so need to discuss why with yourself What 'sacred beliefs'. Is there a buzzword sentence generator you blokes use when writing on forums. Can we play? Is there a buzzword bingo card? Let's see if we can guess a few of the words. Leftard Libtarb Left wing Woke Liberal Mandate Anti (as any prefix) Triggered Socialist Ecoloon Missing heaps obviously but just a few off the top of the head. Also exactly who is 'but are happy to hold up neo-Nazis in Ukraine as national heroes defending a clearly corrupt and authoritarian Ukrainian government'?' Have yet to see anyone here say 'we love neo-Nazis. They're great when they're on the right side.'
Member since 2008.
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ErogenousZone
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US got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again.
Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/remember-those-russian-bounties-dead-u-s-troops-biden-admin-n1264215“The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide.
Yeah so Putin never said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of the 20th Century? https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 So what? Notice you've gone all quiet about the US bringing the world to the brink during the Cuban missile. The US tried multiple times to remove Castro. And then reached for the nukes. Same same but different.. [/quote]Who here would say that was good and that the US don't have blood on their hands 100 times over. But Jesus talk about nor learning from history if that's your argument against it happening now. It's actually a genuinely dumb thing to say. Its the EXACT same thing. The concerns behind the current actions from Russia are EXACTLY the same thing as what the US did in Cuba. As for the learning from the past. 100% spot on. Why didn't the West learn from it?
I agree. So what exactly is your point?
Burzur said: Ukraine should be entitled to self determination
You said: what like US let Cuba?
I said: It was wrong then and its wrong now. Why would you say because the USA did it 70 years ago Russia should be ok to do it now? - Surely we should try to not repeat mistakes of the past.
You say:............? Jesus H Christ. The USSR backed off in Cuba. The West did not in Ukraine. [/quote]USSR and Cuba are perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship they want. Ukraine is perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship it wants with Europe. If Russia wants to stop this by force, then they're only reinforcing that connection. The first point was not true in 1962 and the US is till applying a trade embargo against Cuba akin to financial/trade sanctions against Russia that are happening as we speak. Your last point hinges on the outcome of this war. The sensible resolution is Ukraine neutrality.
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Burztur
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. “The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide. Yeah so Putin never said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of the 20th Century? https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057
So what?
Notice you've gone all quiet about the US bringing the world to the brink during the Cuban missile.
The US tried multiple times to remove Castro. And then reached for the nukes. Same same but different..
Who here would say that was good and that the US don't have blood on their hands 100 times over. But Jesus talk about nor learning from history if that's your argument against it happening now. It's actually a genuinely dumb thing to say. [/quote]Its the EXACT same thing. The concerns behind the current actions from Russia are EXACTLY the same thing as what the US did in Cuba. As for the learning from the past. 100% spot on. Why didn't the West learn from it? I agree. So what exactly is your point? Burzur said: Ukraine should be entitled to self determination You said: what like US let Cuba? I said: It was wrong then and its wrong now. Why would you say because the USA did it 70 years ago Russia should be ok to do it now? - Surely we should try to not repeat mistakes of the past. You say:............?
Jesus H Christ.
The USSR backed off in Cuba. The West did not in Ukraine.
USSR and Cuba are perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship they want. Ukraine is perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship it wants with Europe. If Russia wants to stop this by force, then they're only reinforcing that connection. [/quote]The first point was not true in 1962 and the US is till applying a trade embargo against Cuba akin to financial/trade sanctions against Russia that are happening as we speak. Your last point hinges on the outcome of this war. The sensible resolution is Ukraine neutrality. The US and Cuba are also perfectly entitled to pursue whatever relationship they want (trade embargo included).
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+xUS got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting. 100%. No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US.
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Burztur
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+x+xUS got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting. 100%. No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US. Yup. Understand this mentality/standpoint, but doesn't justify invasion.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]REMINDER: Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. REMINDER That's because there was dirt to be found on The Big Guy. REMINDER: Trump told EU to start paying their NATO dues. REMINDER before that: Obama told the world the US won't be the world's policeman. EU should pay for their defence. Agreed. Correct and Trump doubled down on this with numerous policy pronouncements deliberately withdrawing America even further from the world stage. You can't have it both ways. And completely consistent with Trump's America First policy. The Europeans believed with Trump was gone, things would be back to normal and the US would pay for their security. Jokes on them. And you know the weird thing. Blokes like you and Rusty can't even bring yourself to say this is bad. Like what the fuck is wrong with your politics when you can't denounce something like this. I suppose Trump set the bar when he said 'there's very fine people on both sides' so there is that. Bang on. I have friends over there now, they are sending me videos of aircraft bombing outside their apartments, on my friends insta there is all dead people strewn across the street. So horrific. I suspect the russian people don't even want this. These alt right clowns acting like this is some sort of 'owning of the libs' Is Biden partly to blame? Probably but in no way would this not have happened under Trump. I agree 100% Biden has not helped the situation, but if Trump was in, he wouldn't even bring in sanctions. In lots of ways it's because of trump and these weak populist leaders that has given these despots the confidence to do what they want because they've sewn so much discord in the west It wouldnt happen under Trump because Trump would use strong rhetoric and implied if not actual miltiary force to make Russia back down. Under Trump there’s a real risk or nuclear and/or military conflict whereas under Biden and Kamala there’s just weakness, sloppy sanctions and empty threats. There’s no way Trump would allow Putin to just waltz in and watch them take Ukraine, hence why Putin waited for a weak, pathetic SJW Democrat to become President before making his move. Why would Trump talk tough to Putin? He's never done that. He had no reason to Of course he needed to. According to your theory, he would need to talk tough to keep Putin in check. So now the situation is Trump has never talked tough to Putin, and Biden has done the same. Im not sure what you mean. You need to pick your moment to talk tough, simply tough talk for the sake of it achieves nothing, Obviously the moment to talk tough to Putin was when he started his military build up along the Ukrainian border, at this point Biden was President , not Donald. Remember when Russia put bounties on US troops in Syria? Should have stood up then. But the bottom line for me is that we are expecting the US to police the world. Why? They shouldn't. “The Biden administration made clear Thursday that the CIA has only "low to moderate confidence" in its intel on alleged Russian bounties for U.S. troops.” Just another MSM lie to discredit Trump. Thanks. My bottom line still stands though. Why is the US at fault? What is the US expected to do everything? Cos Russia invaded Ukraine for threatening to join NATO, and America is the captain of NATO, so its got direct and comprehensive involvement. Ukraine said they would back away from joining NATO. So why did Russia still invade? Also, why is Russia dictating Ukrainian foreign policy anyway. Can't spin this as America's fault. Putin ordered troops in. Simple as that. Did they? IF you watch that video of Putin's interview just 2 months ago he makes a very rational and compelling case that Ukraine joining NATO-as he called it the 5th wave of getting closer to Russia's borders- was akin to someone putting a bomb on your front porch Ukraine isn't Russia's front porch. It is it's own territory. Not saying that Russia shouldn't be concerned and it does have genuine grievances, but to invade another country on this pretext is rubbish. It's all about restoring the Russian Empire and it's glory days, and I hope it fails abysmally. Just hope that the people (both Ukrainian and Russians) don't suffer too much for it. Don't be ridiculous. Of course Ukraine is on Russia's front porch. We already know how the US-and with that any other NATO member would react in similar circumstances through the example of Cuban crisis. NATO would be on nuclear alert. Putin doesn't want to restore the Russian Empire. You are swallowing the western media cool aide. [/quote]Yeah so Putin never said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of the 20th Century? https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 So what? Notice you've gone all quiet about the US bringing the world to the brink during the Cuban missile. The US tried multiple times to remove Castro. And then reached for the nukes. Same same but different..
Who here would say that was good and that the US don't have blood on their hands 100 times over.
But Jesus talk about nor learning from history if that's your argument against it happening now.
It's actually a genuinely dumb thing to say.
Its the EXACT same thing. The concerns behind the current actions from Russia are EXACTLY the same thing as what the US did in Cuba. As for the learning from the past. 100% spot on. Why didn't the West learn from it? [/quote]I agree. So what exactly is your point? Burzur said: Ukraine should be entitled to self determination You said: what like US let Cuba? I said: It was wrong then and its wrong now. Why would you say because the USA did it 70 years ago Russia should be ok to do it now? - Surely we should try to not repeat mistakes of the past. You say:............? Jesus H Christ. The USSR backed off in Cuba. The West did not in Ukraine.
USSR and Cuba are perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship they want.
Ukraine is perfectly entitled to continue/pursue whatever relationship it wants with Europe. If Russia wants to stop this by force, then they're only reinforcing that connection. The first point was not true in 1962 and the US is till applying a trade embargo against Cuba akin to financial/trade sanctions against Russia that are happening as we speak. Your last point hinges on the outcome of this war. The sensible resolution is Ukraine neutrality. [/quote]The US and Cuba are also perfectly entitled to pursue whatever relationship they want (trade embargo included). Hang on. Cuba wanted Soviet missile bases on its land. The US said to Cuba if you do that we will nuke you and the USSR. Cuba and the USSR backed off. They weren''t entitled to pursue whatever relationship they wanted. Which is what NATO should have done in Ukraine.. Years ago
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+xUS got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting. 100%. No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US. Yup. Understand this mentality/standpoint, but doesn't justify invasion. So if your neighbour habours the military might of your enemy, you think its ok to just let that happen? Putins actions may seem extreme but perfectly understandable from the point of view of protecting his nation. We would do the same.
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tsf
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FFS Ukraine has not joined Nato - nor is there any realistic possibility of it! Look at the criteria.
Having said that - if they were would anyone blame them considering what has happened? If anything this has shown why they'd want security.
Lastly, I suggest a few people get out a map, look at the russian border and see how threatened their pwoor widdle country is...what a joke.
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tsf
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+xUS got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting. 100%. No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US. Yup. Understand this mentality/standpoint, but doesn't justify invasion. Putins actions may seem extreme but perfectly understandable from the point of view of protecting his nation. We would do the same. FMD
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Enzo Bearzot
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+xFFS Ukraine has not joined Nato - nor is there any realistic possibility of it! Look at the criteria. Having said that - if they were would anyone blame them considering what has happened? If anything this has shown why they'd want security. Lastly, I suggest a few people get out a map, look at the russian border and see how threatened their pwoor widdle country is...what a joke. So why not rule it out? NATO and Ukraine have had plenty of time to say exactly that. I have no skin in this game. Sorry if you do.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+xFFS Ukraine has not joined Nato - nor is there any realistic possibility of it! Look at the criteria. Having said that - if they were would anyone blame them considering what has happened? If anything this has shown why they'd want security. Lastly, I suggest a few people get out a map, look at the russian border and see how threatened their pwoor widdle country is...what a joke.
Moscow is 500kms from the Ukraine border. Under 15 minutes flight for a NATO fighter plane. Less for missiles. Ain't happening.
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tsf
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+x+xFFS Ukraine has not joined Nato - nor is there any realistic possibility of it! Look at the criteria. Having said that - if they were would anyone blame them considering what has happened? If anything this has shown why they'd want security. Lastly, I suggest a few people get out a map, look at the russian border and see how threatened their pwoor widdle country is...what a joke. So why not rule it out? NATO and Ukraine have had plenty of time to say exactly that. Ok cool, so unless everyone walks around chanting 'I will not join NATO' they are getting invaded and their apartments bombed. What sort of logic is this?
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AJF
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Op-Ed: Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise By Joshua R. Itzkowitz Shifrinson Moscow solidified its hold on Crimea in April, outlawing the Tatar legislature that had opposed Russia’s annexation of the region since 2014. Together with Russian military provocations against NATO forces in and around the Baltic, this move seems to validate the observations of Western analysts who argue that under Vladimir Putin, an increasingly aggressive Russia is determined to dominate its neighbors and menace Europe. Leaders in Moscow, however, tell a different story. For them, Russia is the aggrieved party. They claim the United States has failed to uphold a promise that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe, a deal made during the 1990 negotiations between the West and the Soviet Union over German unification. In this view, Russia is being forced to forestall NATO’s eastward march as a matter of self-defense. The West has vigorously protested that no such deal was ever struck. However, hundreds of memos, meeting minutes and transcripts from U.S. archives indicate otherwise. Although what the documents reveal isn’t enough to make Putin a saint, it suggests that the diagnosis of Russian predation isn’t entirely fair. Europe’s stability may depend just as much on the West’s willingness to reassure Russia about NATO’s limits as on deterring Moscow’s adventurism. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html
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ErogenousZone
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If Putin's endgame is to slow down or stop what he considers to be the unacceptable expansion of NATO & asssociated political influence then he isn't doing very well on that front. :hehe:
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tsf
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+xIf Putin's endgame is to slow down or stop what he considers to be the unacceptable expansion of NATO & asssociated political influence then he isn't doing very well on that front. :hehe: Indeed. I would say he's just guaranteed an exceptionally strong and well funded NATO.
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Muz
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+x+xIf Putin's endgame is to slow down or stop what he considers to be the unacceptable expansion of NATO & asssociated political influence then he isn't doing very well on that front. :hehe: Indeed. I would say he's just guaranteed an exceptionally strong and well funded NATO. Yes saw Condaleeza Rice say that in an interview by that Fox hack, is it Jannette Pirot or something. The look on her face was priceless.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+xUS got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country? i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment? Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners. Is this going to be a Cuba situation? As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ? Interesting. 100%. No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US. Yup. Understand this mentality/standpoint, but doesn't justify invasion. So if your neighbour habours the military might of your enemy, you think its ok to just let that happen? Putins actions may seem extreme but perfectly understandable from the point of view of protecting his nation. We would do the same. It's weird seeing you back an autocratic ex-communist (possibly the word's richest) tyrant that yearns for the old days and yet, here we are.
Member since 2008.
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cesspit
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the SWIFT ban will bring Putin to heel
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Muz
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+xOp-Ed: Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise By Joshua R. Itzkowitz Shifrinson Moscow solidified its hold on Crimea in April, outlawing the Tatar legislature that had opposed Russia’s annexation of the region since 2014. Together with Russian military provocations against NATO forces in and around the Baltic, this move seems to validate the observations of Western analysts who argue that under Vladimir Putin, an increasingly aggressive Russia is determined to dominate its neighbors and menace Europe. Leaders in Moscow, however, tell a different story. For them, Russia is the aggrieved party. They claim the United States has failed to uphold a promise that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe, a deal made during the 1990 negotiations between the West and the Soviet Union over German unification. In this view, Russia is being forced to forestall NATO’s eastward march as a matter of self-defense. The West has vigorously protested that no such deal was ever struck. However, hundreds of memos, meeting minutes and transcripts from U.S. archives indicate otherwise. Although what the documents reveal isn’t enough to make Putin a saint, it suggests that the diagnosis of Russian predation isn’t entirely fair. Europe’s stability may depend just as much on the West’s willingness to reassure Russia about NATO’s limits as on deterring Moscow’s adventurism. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html I think, that back in the 90's the west thought, with the fall of the iron curtain, and capitalism spreading to the former Soviet territories and Russia itself that democracy would take hold, free and fair elections would be held and everyone would eventually be 'integrated' into the 'west'. To a large degree that's happened with former Warsaw pact members like, Slovakia, Poland Latvia, Estonia etc becoming thriving capitalist democracies. No one banked on Russia stalling and then going backwards and becoming more and more autocratic. I mean for fucks sake Putin changed the constitution so he could stay in power, murders journalists by the dozens, poison or locks up anyone that dares to speak against him, runs misinformation campaigns, actively interferes in elections and engages in cyber warfare constantly. I hardly think for one minute that's what the west thought would happen. So I guess now they're tearing up those 'agreements' or 'understandings' (or saying they didn't exist) they had in the 90s to build a bulwark. Either to deliberately antagonise Putin, to build a buffer between them and the 'old' western Europe', to help spread democracy or a mixture of all three. (And maybe some others.) Almost exactly the same thing has happened in China regards their trajectory since opening up their economy and embracing capitalism. They're peas in a pod. This whole Russia thing could go a couple of different ways but it is interesting seeing mass protests in Moscow that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. Are we going to get another Tianemen Square incident.
Member since 2008.
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