All we need is another city of 5 million with no A-League club

Its no co-incidence Victory's average went from 22k to 15k the season Heart came in ( who averaged 8k themselves)

Geoff Lord was an absolute genius when he insisted his club be the only one in a city of 5+ million.

.

Puts on helmet and risks the outrange of many.... by posting about the MLS

If there is a competition destined to fail it’s the MLS according to countless, journalist, opinion makers, many Football people, almost everybody outside MLS folk.

Using a weather report to describe MLS, it would be cold, wet, gloomy, dismal miserable, guismil & glum.

Most must think I have lost my marbles, we all know, it’s a retirement league, a giant ponzi scheme, a plastic league, soulless. Yet in 2022 with a media deal worth only 65 million

 MLS turnover was 1.85 billion or put another way the media deal was 3.6% of revenue. This year with 29 teams turnover with a new 300 million media deal will be over 2.3 billion.

 How they did this is worth analysis… because of work I had to do I needed to look at the MLS and then kinda got into their management …. 

The essence or say core of MLS thinking and all if not most decisions are fan focused…. MLS don't want to lose fans and they wish to grow there fan base . at the very heart of major decisions the MLS look at how fans will react ... 

 Last year over 10 million thu the gate with stadiums over all teams averaging over 94% capacity…. 

The big take away is they make almost all their revenue via fans…. I can say what they did and show some vids if people want….

The A-League needs to average 15k and the leadership and management of most clubs is lacking. ... as a league we place to much emphasise on broadcasting and broadcasters needs...  we play 156 games just assume we averaged 10k more thats 1.56 million and  @ $ 25.00 per ticket thats 37.5 million extra... increased crowds also brings in higher sponsorships and generally more media coverage...

Someone posted earlier .. "" A house Divided against itself will fall over"""  very true.... we don't seem to have the leadership to connect to the park teams nor offer a vision for the future that people will get behind... 

The A-L needs a fan focused decision making model approach .... increasing the fan base will lift all other metrics ... 

But your point was about marques not populated cities - the crowd had already dropped about 5k a year before heart too so what was that drop for? It also went up a few thousand again the year after Heart formed so with such data there is not much to be interpreted imo 

Having a team in a populated city is just common sense really

Melbourne mate. 
Been watching football throughout the era's...state leagues, NSL, NPL and A-League. 

I've seen it all.  

And these self entitled fans who think they deserve to dictate league and club policy is embarassing. 

As I said...no league decision has been as bad as forcibly changing club names in the NSL of the 90s. 

Not one person decided on a walkout, boycott or demanding to meet with league chiefs. 
Mono can attest to what the Hellas fans did. 

Cheers for the informative post and the other one a few weeks back. Meant to say something then. 

It wouldn't hurt the A League looking at what the US has done in the face of a very hostile media and look to copy SOME (some Mono) aspects of their approach to increase the fan base.

It's simply churlish and immature to look at any successful business and think we can't learn anything from them. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

'Forcibly' ! You sure about that? 

Even the mono ethnic clubs at the time knew they had to become more mainstream if they were ever going to increase engagement. I'd say more through gritted teeth than dragged kicking and screaming into changing their names.

Oh. 
I'm sure. 
David Hill waged war on the ethnic clubs. 
And that filtered through the state feds. 

Now the Italians rolled over pretty easily like in WW2 and weren't really phased. 
Most of the other ethnic clubs that had their names for decades saw David Hill as enemy #1. 
Even to the day. 

Yeh, it's true, David Hill even wrote articles about it in the mainstream press.
He said it quite plainly, watching a game at Hellas, and all the public announcements were in Greek, and he was shocked by that (being the middle aged white aussie male that he was).
He did the Lowy thing before Lowy!!

My point was about marquees and the point stands: *Genuine* marquees do work.  The uplift in attendances, viewership figures, merch, media over a five year period is enough data.

You brought Victory into it, an irrelevant point given that they not only had sports-mad Melbourne all to themselves but the second most-populous State in the nation (hence their name-Victoria) all to themselves.  This should never have happened.

That's well and good but have a look at this list of players the MLS has ( Chiellini doesn't earn enough to make this list)

         MLSPA: Top 25 MLS player salaries (2022)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

Name	Base Salary	Guaranteed Compensation
1. Lorenzo Insigne (TOR)	$14,000,000.00	$14,000,000.00
2. Xherdan Shaqiri (CHI)	$7,350,000.00	$8,153,000.00
3. Javier Hernandez (LA)	$6,000,000.00	$7,443,750.00
4. Federico Bernardeschi (TOR)	$3,125,000.00	$6,256,322.00
5. Douglas Costa (LA)	$3,000,000.00	$5,800,000.00
6. Gonzalo Higuain (MIA)	$5,100,000.00	$5,793,750.00
7. Hector Herrera (HOU)	$4,750,000.00	$5,246,875.00
8. Alejandro Pozuelo (MIA)	$3,800,000.00	$4,693,000.00
9. Luiz Araujo (ATL)	$3,600,000.00	$4,480,333.00
10. Jozy Altidore (NE)	$3,706,139.00	$4,264,963.00
11. Christian Benteke (DC)	$4,000,000.00	$4,182,778.00
12. Josef Martinez (ATL)	$3,750,000.00	$4,141,667.00
13. Lucas Zelarayan (CLB)	$3,100,000.00	$3,700,000.00
14. Carles Gil (NE)	$3,250,000.00	$3,545,833.00
15. Rodolfo Pizarro (MIA)	$3,050,000.00	$3,350,000.00
16. Nicolas Lodeiro (SEA)	$2,640,000.00	$3,256,667.00
17. Franco Jara (DAL)	$2,540,000.00	$3,227,000.00
18. Raul Ruidiaz (SEA)	$2,472,000.00	$3,201,120.00
19. Victor Wanyama (MTL)	$2,400,000.00	$3,091,667.00
20. Cucho Hernandez (CLB)	$2,600,000.00	$2,886,000.00
21. Carlos Vela (LAFC)	$2,400,000.00	$2,737,500.00
22. Gustavo Bou (NE)	$2,500,000.00	$2,675,000.00
23. Gareth Bale (LAFC)	$1,600,000.00	$2,386,667.00
24. Gaston Gimenez (CHI)	$2,060,000.00	$2,360,667.00
25. Walker Zimmerman (NSH)	$2,088,235.00	$2,345,214.00

        https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/bale-insigne-herrera-mlspa-releases-updated-2022-player-salaries-guide                                                

I think Lowy was behind the initial club name changes back in early 80s. 
That's when they went for the American style nicknames and logos.. 
Sydney City Slickers. 
Adelaide Giants. 
Brisbane Gladiators

But getting back to my point, clubs being forced to change their names is a lot worse than the GF being set in Sydney for 3 years. 
Trivial reason for fans to boycott or walkout on their teams. And demand a seat at league decision table. 
Self entitled fans. All about them. 

Enzo

From around 2000 to 2004 the MLS was near bankruptcy and could not afford the players on your list and remember this is round 6 I think this year ... have a look at the guy that scores a hat trick his second and third goals just class and the first was not bad either.... goals if you can't watch the full 5 minutes are at  app....1:30 and 3:40 and 4:35.

MLS build to this level.... and I keep repeating it is based largely on a fan focused decision making model....

AnyWho... LA V Austin as an example ... would love the scorer in the A-l...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa7TvfhaFYY&ab_channel=MajorLeagueSoccer


 

Of course its a fan-based model.  Bring in top players- Villa, Pirlo, Gerrard, Lampard, Ibrahimovic- and the fans will love you for it. 

But notice the pattern-one marquee follows another, who follows another, who follows another. 

Unlike the A-League-  "we spent $4 mill once on Del Peiro, and we only got 5 years worth of boosted attendances, tv ratings, media attention and merch.  What a waste.  Lets never do that again.  Best to give the fans Jack Clisby at his twelfth A-League club.  That's who the fans want to watch".

The level of football played is really good, and I can watch it at a good time. I have a young family and am no longer able/ motivated to stay up until 2-3am watching two teams on the other side of the world. 

I have followed the local game religiously since 1992/93ish. Stupidity and poor decisions by our administrators in my opinion has always been the biggest issue. We also need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves. We are our own worst enemy first and foremost. 

Fair comment about MLS, Midfielder.

he don't get it.......

By the way with pop @ 390M most sports get a look in just depends the level re USA.
MLS is a pauper (still) in the big picture like us here due to other codes farfar more mainstream and supported but used as a yardstick is not in our best interest regards to a pure football model.
The sugar hits will forever keep going in the MLS due to the amount of billionaire type owners who just as here only have concerns for their product not the game as a whole.

The NFL's total 2022 revenue was $18 billion, an increase from $12.2 billion in 2020 compared to MLS.
Sponsorship revenue totaled $2.05B across the 32 NFL teams in the 2022-2023 season–a new league record, and a 14% increase year-over-year. When combined with the league as a whole, total sponsorship revenue was $2.7B
Then you could check NBA/NHL again would be streaks ahead of MLS.

I agree our governers need to put more focus on the "fans" and NOT follow MLS for its typically USA whereas we the small country we are have more links/gens with EU and failed league or not (NSL) foundations entrenched by efffnics - huge diff to USA's DNA.
The focus should be on the broken foundation we have, its there for the taking with the right people/remodel instead of following anything USA.
Then the people will come with more unity.

Portugal has a good league. One of the best in Europe outside the big five.  Also, Sporting Lisbon, Benfica and Porto, are Portuguese clubs who have decent European pedigree in intercontinental comps.

Croatia also has two good teams who also have European pedigree - Dynamo Zagreb and Hadjuk Split. A Croatian mate of mine said Dalmations from all over the world invest money into HS.

Moreover, Portugal and Croatia are world powerhouses in international  football.

Greece also have a few decent clubs Olympiakos and Panaithanikos (? spelling). 

 The domestic leagues in Portugal, Croatia and Greece, are a bit different than those in Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore.

We had Juninho playing in the AL for a season. He played plenty of times for Brazil.

Romario played 4 games for AU.

Marquees have had zero impact in Victoria and Victoria was the best supported for 75% of the a-league. 

So, no - marquess are a sugar hit but not for long term growth. MV have shown that. Your points can be easliy contradicted by looking at other teams and success over teh 20 year period. Marquees might work for flashy sydney, but other markets have other interests.

You don't hear MV fans demanding some superstar. It simply is not needed.

What was the maximum season for combined spectator  attendances for: 

Melbourne -  with Victory and Heart/City  playing?

Sydney - with SFC and WSW playing?

Has a third club for both cities, Western  United and Macarthur, although WU probably isn't technically a Melb club, added to overall AL crowds?

yer that so......
Hernandez, Finkler, Flores,Berisha, FBK, Toivonen, Honda say hello plus you could add half a doz more for eg.....sure do have some impact.

Sitting from the SFC fence and observations I don't think its the fans stomping up and down for marquee's but the owner always wanting to cash in more than any other point and to kick the league off, Lowy would have had huge influence regards this for the league and SFC.
They set the gaunlet that has stuck since Blingfc that in the big picture alot never liked the phrase but for the fair wethered base and waggoners.
The press play its role as well.

Only Honda could really be called a 'superstar' in that list. Nani and definitely Kewell back in the day too. The others were no-names in Australia before they came to the A-L. MV obviously take advantage of the marquee rule, but when they have had 'superstars' it doesn't work out well. Kewell - terrible season. Honda - injured, terrible tail end of the season. Nani - injured terrible season.
I agree with you about it being more about the club/owners making these decisions rather than fans. I remember even Frank Farina saying he didn't really know what to do with ADP. Didn't fit in with their structure at the time at all. It showed on the table too. SFC missed finals in his first season. Knocked out of finals in the first round in his second season. ADP definitely put bums on seats though, they just didn't stick around. I have an Italian mate here in Melbourne. Juventus fan, he actually grew up just outside Turin. Only really follows the Serie A and the EPL. He came with us to every MV vs SFC game when ADP was playing. Had zero interest in following the A-L or either MV or SFC after that. Just wanted to see one of his heroes play live. Getting people in the door is one thing, getting them to stick around is another. Marquees only do one of those things.
At the end of the day fans just want to see their team win. Adelaide is good example. Team full of no-names. Their fans aren't screaming for big names. They just want a winning team. Sure enough, three consecutive seasons of AU making finals, as well as improving each year, and they are packing Coopers every week.
It's the no-name marquees that have been the stand-outs, not the 'superstars'. Players like Broich, Ninko, Berisha, Hernandez and many others were no-names in Australia before they joined the A-League, yet these are the types of players fans remember the most. The 'big' names don't really work. They definitely don't bring a return on investment. Sometimes they are nice to have, but it's not a sustainable model.

Relevant to this dicussion this just came through earlier today I saw, sure its someone else's opinion but parts has merit.......
https://www.theroar.com.au/2023/04/12/apathy-and-incentives-without-high-level-stakes-and-drama-the-a-league-will-always-be-lacking/

"The most interesting football leagues are filled to the brim with high-stakes drama. The title race, the qualification for continental football, and multi-team relegation battles. Just observe the passion and drama of Wrexham and Notts County fighting for promotion out of England’s fifth tier (yes fifth!) to see how the slowly unfolding drama of a title race can grip even neutral fans across the world."

"A competition without relegation battles is also inherently less interesting than those that have them. The incentive to avoid relegation also raises the standard of football from the bottom up. Instead, we have more lame-duck teams than those trying to win the league."

As cringey as any form of Amercanism is (and I know you agree with me on this) its not a bad idea for APL to try and copy some of the aspects of MLS fan culture. Both you and Middy are right in that we have some cultural crossover with our gun totting inbreed cousins across the Pacific. If the APL is to be forever cutoff from the rest of the soccer world here then they should get the cheerleaders, safe smoke and chainsaws out to to appeal to the bogan hordes looking for cheap family fun .... go crazy.

BUT..... getting back to Middies oft repeated original point of the MLS experiencing massive financial returns because it is "fan driven" Im sorry but I have to disagree... It certainly listens to its paying customers but does NOT appeal to all football fans in the US who have, more so than us, been calling for pro/rel, a complete soccer pyramid and a complete re-think of youth development for an under performing men's national team not reflective of a 1st world country with such a massive population.... If both APL and MLS cared about the sport and growing the profile of the game through development of the playing pool (which I believe to be the aim of everyone on here in some degree) and NOT just in making it commercial profitable for their investors then they would truly listen to the fan base, all the fan base, not just potential marketing demographics.

For example Middie, if APL decided to hold a public fan based forum today, Danny drew a line in the sand and said to all fans of football in Australia "right tell us 3 things we can do better to help bring you back to watching football in the stands" what do you think the outcome would be?
I predict (I could be wrong as I cant pretend to understand what the "family friendly all sports fan" wants) that most would list:

1) Return to the tried and tested format of the highest placed team hosting the grand final
2) Open the pyramid to allow for promotion and relegation based purely on sporting results
3) If you cant play the game in Winter then at least schedule matches in Summer to avoid the midday extreme weather for fan comfort.

How many of the above to do you think APL would even pause long enough in the conversation to consider????

I agree someguyfc not all are known marquee's but they performed well above than the locals and set a standard - you saw the diff inturn people want to see them.
As the ones you mentioned Ninko Bresch, they became status players (Legends are they say) Adrian another what a unexpeted talent to tear it up here another.
Again it is all about getting a winning culture/season crowds come (AU correct) but its all too fickle here for they don't stay for where's the added juice coming back week by week whilst the comp is as is - note that article I posted what I'm talking about.

Pretty much this Muz. Most of the NSl was a blurr of failed attempts to appeal to the mythical "mainstream" audience... As much as some love to blame the failings of the past on the Monoethnic Social Clubs, most (not all) DID try whatever they could to branch out... The name change from "Hellas" to Blues, Gunners, Lakers etc etc was a long drawn out, and yes through gritty teeth, process but Butler is right many just ignored it altogether and kept following The straw that broke the camles back was Lowy and the Aleague (David Hill is still despised though).... Best "changes" were the Croatian clubs hahahaha the "KNIGHTS" acronym especially...

Do they have a different leadership structure in the mls? How do they deal with ultraz and active groups?

it seems to me the only way for the a league to survive is to be lenient on the ultraz as long as they sit in certain areas and just live with the chaos and bad media

I would add a fourth, Mono.

Give the Australia Cup a genuine "home". A place where every (for want of a better date) last Saturday of November, we all know that the final of the Australia Cup is to be held at (as an example) Homebush Stadium. And make it the home of the Australian National Team. Get kids dreaming of watching their heroes play on the sacred turf. Get them dreaming of playing on the sacred turf. spoken as one who has no intention of ever living in Sydney, but we have to realize that for BIG events it's got to be either there or Melbourne, and Sydney gets it by a whisker.

I guarantee they have had many lengthy discussions about all of those points. However those discussions are centered around how to avoid those things rather than how to achieve them.
The other point I'd add to that list is a proper transfer/loans system, which is more of an FA thing, but where is it? They said they were working on it, how hard can it be? They aren't re-inventing the wheel.