Who is our CB back up?


Who is our CB back up?

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Lurker
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Decentric 2 - 22 Apr 2023 12:18 PM
Booney - 21 Apr 2023 1:45 PM

Wouldn't worry too much about Hearts fans.

Do they have specific football performance  training in  football?

Rowles held his own in the WC, although he may have been beaten aerially against France. He  played far better opposition in the WC than anything in Scotland  - Argentina, France,   even Denmark, who easily beat Scotland in UEFA WCQs.

 

They don't need performance training to see that someone can't head the ball or is easily knocked off it.

I would suggest that  many Hearts fans have more knowledge of the game than you realise.

I don't buy that an international side is necessarily stronger than a top club team.  A particular international team has the best players from that country. A top club team has the better players from many countries. So maybe Rowles has come up against equivalent quality when playing against Celtic and Rangers.




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Lurker - 22 Apr 2023 1:28 PM
Decentric 2 - 22 Apr 2023 12:18 PM

They don't need performance training to see that someone can't head the ball or is easily knocked off it.

I would suggest that  many Hearts fans have more knowledge of the game than you realise.

I don't buy that an international side is necessarily stronger than a top club team.  A particular international team has the best players from that country. A top club team has the better players from many countries. So maybe Rowles has come up against equivalent quality when playing against Celtic and Rangers.




I'm sorry, but Rangers and Celtic are not even European powerhouses.

At the last World Cup  in Qatar, France and Argentina, were the best teams on the planet. Rowles was fine against them, probably having to deal with far less aerial balls - a salient weakness of the Scottish league,  which renders them being out of touch with contemporaneous  football.

 Some of the French players who didn't make the WC squad, through injury, or were omitted, would still walk into most teams. France has a lot of depth. 
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The only problem with Rowles is he's a safe passer of the ball, not a confident ball player like Souttar is.

Usually he's first option is to go back to the keeper or pass it sideways but being an left footer has advantages.
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Decentric 2 - 23 Apr 2023 10:27 PM
Lurker - 22 Apr 2023 1:28 PM

I'm sorry, but Rangers and Celtic are not even European powerhouses.

At the last World Cup  in Qatar, France and Argentina, were the best teams on the planet. Rowles was fine against them, probably having to deal with far less aerial balls - a salient weakness of the Scottish league,  which renders them being out of touch with contemporaneous  football.

 Some of the French players who didn't make the WC squad, through injury, or were omitted, would still walk into most teams. France has a lot of depth. 

You do realise that Rangers lost the last Europa League final on penalties don't you?

"At the last World Cup  in Qatar, France and Argentina, were the best national teams on the planet". Fixed it for you. The top European club teams would comfortably beat any national team.

Souttar masked Rowles' deficiencies at the World cup. Rowles is an excellent blocker of the ball but he has struggled in the SPL this season.

How would you know the weaknesses of the SPL when you don't watch it?

Edited
2 Years Ago by Lurker
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Lurker - 24 Apr 2023 5:38 AM
Decentric 2 - 23 Apr 2023 10:27 PM

You do realise that Rangers lost the last Europa League final on penalties don't you?

"At the last World Cup  in Qatar, France and Argentina, were the best national teams on the planet". Fixed it for you. The top European club teams would comfortably beat any national team.

Souttar masked Rowles' deficiencies at the World cup. Rowles is an excellent blocker of the ball but he has struggled in the SPL this season.

How would you know the weaknesses of the SPL when you don't watch it?

Europa is the second division for intra-continental football in Europe. This comp is for those omitted in early rounds of the  Champ League, to join others who didn't qualify for the Champ League.

If Rangers were to  qualify for the last 16 of the Champ League, that is unequivocal success. They would have had to have beaten high  quality big five UEFA league clubs to go this far.

And as far  as analysing Scotland, I'm quite  well - trained as a coach to evaluate it, by  just observing some salient stats. Scotland having such low number of pass aggregates per game, indicates it is an overly physical league, where a lot of high, long balls are played,  which results in frequent turnovers.  

Rather than similar  to  leagues where possession of the ball is treasured - like Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Japan, or even Australia - the ball is in the Contested Ball Phase Of Play, or Attacking and Defensive Transitions much more in Scotland.

I watched quite a bit of the Scottish league just a few years ago. When I watched Celtic play on their home pitch, under  Brendan Rodgers or Ange, they played a slick possession game. It deviated from the league norm though.
Edited
2 Years Ago by Decentric 2
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Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 3:44 PM
Lurker - 24 Apr 2023 5:38 AM

Europa is the second division for intra-continental football in Europe. This comp is for those omitted in early rounds of the  Champ League, to join others who didn't qualify for the Champ League.

If Rangers were to  qualify for the last 16 of the Champ League, that is unequivocal success. They would have had to have beaten high  quality big five UEFA league clubs to go this far.

And as far  as analysing Scotland, I'm quite  well - trained as a coach to evaluate it, by  just observing some salient stats. Scotland having such low number of pass aggregates per game, indicates it is an overly physical league, where a lot of high, long balls are played,  which results in frequent turnovers.  

Rather than similar  to  leagues where possession of the ball is treasured - like Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Japan, or even Australia - the ball is in the Contested Ball Phase Of Play, or Attacking and Defensive Transitions in Scotland.

I watched quite a bit of the Scottish league just a few years ago. When I watched Celtic play on their home pitch, under  Brendan Rodgers or Ange, they played a slick possession game. It deviated from the league norm though.

Decentric you've said you haven't watched SPL in years. I don't think you can do any meaningful assessment by only reviewing 'salient stats' (i.e., the stuff grazor posted) and not watching the game.

I don't think it's right to make blanket statements the league is wrong for everyone. It's likely depending on role and playing style it's a good league for many players, and that appears the case for many Australian players. 
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Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 3:44 PM
Lurker - 24 Apr 2023 5:38 AM

Europa is the second division for intra-continental football in Europe. This comp is for those omitted in early rounds of the  Champ League, to join others who didn't qualify for the Champ League.

If Rangers were to  qualify for the last 16 of the Champ League, that is unequivocal success. They would have had to have beaten high  quality big five UEFA league clubs to go this far.

And as far  as analysing Scotland, I'm quite  well - trained as a coach to evaluate it, by  just observing some salient stats. Scotland having such low number of pass aggregates per game, indicates it is an overly physical league, where a lot of high, long balls are played,  which results in frequent turnovers.  

Rather than similar  to  leagues where possession of the ball is treasured - like Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Japan, or even Australia - the ball is in the Contested Ball Phase Of Play, or Attacking and Defensive Transitions much more in Scotland.

I watched quite a bit of the Scottish league just a few years ago. When I watched Celtic play on their home pitch, under  Brendan Rodgers or Ange, they played a slick possession game. It deviated from the league norm though.

Yes, the Europa League is the second tier but there is nothing 2nd division about it.

Here are the finalists of that competition for the past 10 years:

Chelsea v Benfica
Sevilla v Benfica
Sevilla v Dniipro Dnipropetrovisk
Sevilla v Liverpool
Manchester United v Ajax
Atletico Madrid v Marseille
Chelsea v Arsenal
Sevilla v Inter Milan
Villarreal v Manchester United
Eintracht Frankfurt v Rangers

Here are the teams Rangers beat on the way to the final.

Brondby
Sparta Prague
Borussia Dortmund
Red Star Belgrade
Braga
RB Leipzig

I think you devalue Rangers achievement.



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Lurker - 22 Apr 2023 1:28 PM
Decentric 2 - 22 Apr 2023 12:18 PM

They don't need performance training to see that someone can't head the ball or is easily knocked off it.

I would suggest that  many Hearts fans have more knowledge of the game than you realise.

I don't buy that an international side is necessarily stronger than a top club team.  A particular international team has the best players from that country. A top club team has the better players from many countries. So maybe Rowles has come up against equivalent quality when playing against Celtic and Rangers.




I think this assessment is precisely the problem with rowles being in scotland, you get overly judged on physicality. This is partly because the refereeing style and tactics require a much more physical player. Ten years ago, most players on the continent would be deemed not good enough for the championship due to their overemphasis on physicality.

thankfully the championship has been evolving leaving the spl outside the new/old firm alone as an outlier in world football

Physically improving wont kill him, but we just dont need him to be a beefcake for the nt, and better clubs and leagues dont need it as much either. But we do need players to thrive in games where there are around 700+ passes a game which he will only get against Celtic and rangers

it might be tricky for the spl to change, as much as there were howls this year when refs became harsher inthe a league ive seen so many comments from scots about the jeggo red card that “the game is going soft” and some pretty unhinged reactions

i think there should be 2 red cards a game from what ive watched this year in the spl! (Almost every game with aussies unless they are on at the same time) Not to mention many more fouls and yellows. Since the league has p and r it is hard to see much change until the refereeing gets harsher 
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grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 7:01 PM
Lurker - 22 Apr 2023 1:28 PM

I think this assessment is precisely the problem with rowles being in scotland, you get overly judged on physicality. This is partly because the refereeing style and tactics require a much more physical player. Ten years ago, most players on the continent would be deemed not good enough for the championship due to their overemphasis on physicality.

thankfully the championship has been evolving leaving the spl outside the new/old firm alone as an outlier in world football

Physically improving wont kill him, but we just dont need him to be a beefcake for the nt, and better clubs and leagues dont need it as much either. But we do need players to thrive in games where there are around 700+ passes a game which he will only get against Celtic and rangers

it might be tricky for the spl to change, as much as there were howls this year when refs became harsher inthe a league ive seen so many comments from scots about the jeggo red card that “the game is going soft” and some pretty unhinged reactions

i think there should be 2 red cards a game from what ive watched this year in the spl! (Almost every game with aussies unless they are on at the same time) Not to mention many more fouls and yellows. Since the league has p and r it is hard to see much change until the refereeing gets harsher 

Jeggo wasn't even worth a yellow. He most likely will  win his appeal. He won the ball fair and square.

But, yes the SPL is both hard and fast but skilful and Rowles would probably be better suited to another league.

A lot of Scots think the refs are incompetent and too hard. They argue that, football is a contact sport and the refs blow the whistle too soon.

I hope you enjoy your time in England. You will find that a lot of the English have a poor misguided opinion of the SPL.

Edited
2 Years Ago by Lurker
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Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 7:22 PM
grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 7:01 PM

Jeggo wasn't even worth a yellow. He most likely will  win his appeal. He won the ball fair and square.

But, yes the SPL is both hard and fast but skilful and Rowles would probably be better suited to another league.

A lot of Scots think the refs are incompetent and too hard. They argue that, football is a contact sport and the refs blow the whistle too soon.

I hope you enjoy your time in England. You will find that a lot of the English have a poor misguided opinion of the SPL.

Interesting that fans think the reffing is too hard! Is this recent? Perhaps there are some efforts to change the game there. Would be an interesting dynamic given what u said about club football being the priority. 

Thanks for the well wishes! Will be interesting being a southampton fan!
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grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 7:37 PM
Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 7:22 PM

Interesting that fans think the reffing is too hard! Is this recent? Perhaps there are some efforts to change the game there. Would be an interesting dynamic given what u said about club football being the priority. 

Thanks for the well wishes! Will be interesting being a southampton fan!

The referees have always been given a hard time in Scotland.
If your team is losing they are the oppositions 12th man.

Unfortunately  Southampton will be a championship team next season. Despite the parachute payment it is hard for a relegated club to bounce straight back.





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Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 8:16 PM
grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 7:37 PM

The referees have always been given a hard time in Scotland.
If your team is losing they are the oppositions 12th man.

Unfortunately  Southampton will be a championship team next season. Despite the parachute payment it is hard for a relegated club to bounce straight back.





On the upside may be easier for caleb watts to play
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The defence at hearts iams a shambles.

Rowles is only being targeted because he's surrounded be incompetence that doesn't challenge, or is disposed extremely easily, meaning he has to be twice as present..
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grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 8:44 PM
Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 8:16 PM

On the upside may be easier for caleb watts to play

He is not good enough for championship yet imo
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Quicky - 25 Apr 2023 4:48 PM
Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 3:44 PM

Decentric you've said you haven't watched SPL in years. I don't think you can do any meaningful assessment by only reviewing 'salient stats' (i.e., the stuff grazor posted) and not watching the game.

I don't think it's right to make blanket statements the league is wrong for everyone. It's likely depending on role and playing style it's a good league for many players, and that appears the case for many Australian players. 

I conclude it is very wrong for Aussies  to play in the SPL, because the football played there is not conducive to playing  international  football  with success. 

To fail to qualify for a World Cup in 24 years is an abject failure by Scotland. This is a fact.

If a player wants to go  Scotland,   and focus on the skill set required to succeed in Scotland, and forget about a successful international career, Scotland is a great league to earn money as a pro. 

Moreover, I've watched the Scottish league a few years ago. It was like the AL in the first few years - a roughhouse, second ball, overly physical league. The AL started to change   when Aussie coaches undertook the revamped coaching education in Football Aus Coach Education, based on European powerhouses. No sugar coating it, Scotland is a league insulated from successful contemporary  methodology in international  football. Australia isn't.   

With the excess of aerial balls played, an inherent  weakness of Scottish football, it only develops ball winning CBs, who don't have to necessarily  develop  distribution skills the modern CB needs. If one wants the CBs to be  like Craig Moore ( not too bad with distribution), Paddy Kisnorbo, Ogger, etc, Scotland is the league. CBs can hoof the ball  out, under coaching instructions and game plans.

If one wants to develop cultured CBs. like Matthew Del Pierre, former Victory CB, and French national, Sains, Spira, Neill, Souttar, Rowles, Milligan, Degenek, etc, who can all play out and are comfortable with the ball at their feet, Scotland is the wrong destination.

A few years back many teams had  one of two CBs who could play out, and build ups were directed through  them. Now to spread the field and widen the focus of the opposition pressing, it is preferable to  have   both CBs who can play the ball out.

 In the Qatar WC,  Brazil, Argentina, France, Holland, England, Portugal, Japan, Croatia and Switzerland had both CBs who could do this. Most of the CBs from these successful WC nations' teams might not succeed in Scotland either - given its over-reliance on physical duels,  long high balls and second ball contests.
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Pasquali - 25 Apr 2023 10:52 PM
grazorblade - 25 Apr 2023 8:44 PM

He is not good enough for championship yet imo

Yeah but is young and could have a great pre season
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Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 6:46 PM
Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 3:44 PM

Yes, the Europa League is the second tier but there is nothing 2nd division about it.

Here are the finalists of that competition for the past 10 years:

Chelsea v Benfica
Sevilla v Benfica
Sevilla v Dniipro Dnipropetrovisk
Sevilla v Liverpool
Manchester United v Ajax
Atletico Madrid v Marseille
Chelsea v Arsenal
Sevilla v Inter Milan
Villarreal v Manchester United
Eintracht Frankfurt v Rangers

Here are the teams Rangers beat on the way to the final.

Brondby
Sparta Prague
Borussia Dortmund
Red Star Belgrade
Braga
RB Leipzig

I think you devalue Rangers achievement.



The list of winners and finalists is quite impressive in those stats - but the likes of Man U, Ajax, Benfica, Inter Milan, Sevilla, Villareal, Chelsea, must have been  weak cohorts in those seasons - otherwise they would have been in the latter rounds of the Champ League. Having said that, pretty well any team in the big UEFA five has to be pretty good, regardless of where they are on the table.

In the year Rangers reached the Europa final, Borussia Dortmund, RP Leipzig and Braga ( often in the top 3- 5 clubs in Portugal) are big scalps. Fair play to  Rangers. To beat three of them is impressive. In the earlier rounds of the Europa league, there are some pretty mediocre teams. To beat them isn't much of an achievement.

Again, I reiterate that Rangers and Celtic, usually have good home pitches (atypical for Scotland) and are far better than the rest of the teams in the SPL. Apart from these  two clubs, virtually no Scottish club plays intra-continental European football.

 Furthermore, how many Scots play for Rangers and Celtic? At times there are few Scottish nationals who play for these two club teams.

Moreover , in terms of consistency over seasons, Celtic and Rangers,  rarely make the late rounds of the Champ League - or - the finals of the Europa league. It is an anomaly when they do. 

In all likelihood if any Scottish club outside Rangers and Celtic, played Champ or Europa league football, they would be eliminated pretty quickly.
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Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 11:54 PM
Lurker - 25 Apr 2023 6:46 PM

The list of winners and finalists is quite impressive in those stats - but the likes of Man U, Ajax, Benfica, Inter Milan, Sevilla, Villareal, Chelsea, must have been  weak cohorts in those seasons - otherwise they would have been in the latter rounds of the Champ League. Having said that, pretty well any team in the big UEFA five has to be pretty good, regardless of where they are on the table.

In the year Rangers reached the Europa final, Borussia Dortmund, RP Leipzig and Braga ( often in the top 3- 5 clubs in Portugal) are big scalps. Fair play to  Rangers. To beat three of them is impressive. In the earlier rounds of the Europa league, there are some pretty mediocre teams. To beat them isn't much of an achievement.

Again, I reiterate that Rangers and Celtic, usually have good home pitches (atypical for Scotland) and are far better than the rest of the teams in the SPL. Apart from these  two clubs, virtually no Scottish club plays intra-continental European football.

 Furthermore, how many Scots play for Rangers and Celtic? At times there are few Scottish nationals who play for these two club teams.

Moreover , in terms of consistency over seasons, Celtic and Rangers,  rarely make the late rounds of the Champ League - or - the finals of the Europa league. It is an anomaly when they do. 

In all likelihood if any Scottish club outside Rangers and Celtic, played Champ or Europa league football, they would be eliminated pretty quickly.

I personally think celtic and rangers are a fine level, maybe lower big 5. The style is also good too. Only downside is adjusting to referees which wont protect technical players 
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Lurker - 24 Apr 2023 5:38 AM
Decentric 2 - 23 Apr 2023 10:27 PM

You do realise that Rangers lost the last Europa League final on penalties don't you?

"At the last World Cup  in Qatar, France and Argentina, were the best national teams on the planet". Fixed it for you. The top European club teams would comfortably beat any national team.

Souttar masked Rowles' deficiencies at the World cup. Rowles is an excellent blocker of the ball but he has struggled in the SPL this season.



Rowles, and many other successful CBs  in Qatar, might also struggle in an overly physical, second ball league. 

Rowles is every bit as good as Souttar - at international football level. I'm going away and won't be able to access this site for a week, but if I list a range of CB specific skills and duties, Rowles  has a diverse skill set.

There are no club teams as good as France and Argentina at the last WC.  Have a look at the list of outstanding  players who were  either injured, or not selected for France in Qatar.

The late rounds of the Champ League are very, very good teams - at playing in Europe. Being good in Europe does not always extrapolate   to playing in Africa, South America, Asia, Middle-east.

Think Belgium, Denmark, in the Qatari, Brazilian and South African World Cups. Both Spain and Germany struggled in Qatar too, which was an aberration for both. Some European national teams are  mentally fragile outside Europe and playing in unfamiliar cultures and conditions. 

UEFA, and results gained from it, does not always equate to global football. 
Edited
2 Years Ago by Decentric 2
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grazorblade - 26 Apr 2023 12:03 AM
Decentric 2 - 25 Apr 2023 11:54 PM

I personally think celtic and rangers are a fine level, maybe lower big 5. The style is also good too. Only downside is adjusting to referees which wont protect technical players 

I've seen this discussed a lot.

Some think (probably English) they are Championship level, but I'd surmise they would be mid table, most of the time, in any of the UEFA big five.
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Decentric 2 - 26 Apr 2023 12:11 AM
Lurker - 24 Apr 2023 5:38 AM

Rowles, and many other successful CBs  in Qatar, might also struggle in an overly physical, second ball league. 

Rowles is every bit as good as Souttar - at international football level. I'm going away and won't be able to access this site for a week, but if I list a range of CB specific skills and duties, Rowles  has a diverse skill set.

There are no club teams as good as France and Argentina at the last WC.  Have a look at the list of outstanding  players who were  either injured, or not selected for France in Qatar.

The late rounds of the Champ League are very, very good teams - at playing in Europe. Being good in Europe does not always extrapolate   to playing in Africa, South America, Asia, Middle-east.

Think Belgium, Denmark, in the Qatari, Brazilian and South African World Cups. Both Spain and Germany struggled in Qatar too, which was an aberration for both. Some European national teams are  mentally fragile outside Europe and playing in unfamiliar cultures and conditions. 

UEFA, and results gained from it, does not always equate to global football. 

Mostly agree but i think r16 of the uefa is a similar level to the wc.

incidentally they are similar in style too with around 1000 passes per game being the norm

One interesting recent development is that posession is  anti correlated with success at the highest level (wc and r16 uefa) in recent times. However, top teams counteract possession football do so with a high number of passes per minute with the ball mostly on the deck. So the skillset at the highest level is the same even if tactics have changed

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