Thats the whole crux of the argument for me.... Not saying technology is a bad thing, but using it to forensically analyse 10mm offsides is not getting rid of human error.

I thought the purpose of VAR was to do away with "clear and obvious errors" ?

Scotland lacked the quality in this so maybe no surprise they couldn't score goals in this tournament but they hang on well in most games but it wasn't to be for them.

Looking at the replay, surprised VAR didn't look at it but I guess the ref was unconvinced.

Overall it seems Scotland need to evolve their football a bit, looking at most teams so this tournament they were one of worst on a technical level, so something to improve for future tournaments. 

I knew the Swiss would give Germany a tough game, they got some nice players and play a good brand of football too they could be a problem for any opposition in the knockout stages.

Going to be a lot easier to do this tomorrow - but:

Obviously we know Scotland are out. At the moment, Hungary is in the Top 4 3rd placed teams (in third). Will probably work out which scenarios will affect Hungary after tomorrows games. Tomorrows games CAN rule out Group B though (as Albania are already in the bottom 2)

• If Spain AND Italy win tomorrow, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place
  
• If Spain wins AND Italy v Croatia ends in a draw, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, and Italy will progress in 2nd place
• If Spain win AND Croatia win, Croatia will finish in 2nd place, with Italy 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) provided they do not lose by 4 goals or more.
• If Albania wins AND Italy win, Italy will progress in 2nd, and Albania 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) and should progress
• If Albania wins AND Italy v Croatia ends in a draw, Italy will progress in 2nd, and Albania 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) and should progress
  
• If Albania wins AND Croatia wins, Italy will be eliminated, with Albania and Croatia split in 2nd and 3rd on overall goal difference (Albania currently 2 goals ahead)
• If Spain v Albania ends in a draw AND Italy wins, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place.
• If Spain v Albania ends in a draw AND Croatia wins, with Italy 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) provided they do not lose by 4 goals or more.
• If both Spain v Albania and Italy v Croatia end in a draw, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place.

Just shows how crucial is is to have experience in these tournaments... all game the Scots made bad decisions. Gave the ball away alot and half decision chance was snuffed about by a wayward shot into the stands. Gave away alot of dangerous free kicks and corners. It was bound to happen.

What's McDonald and those other panellist peanuts on about 'clear penalty for Scotland'. Not in a million years. If anything the Scot is pulling the Hungarian down.

Why don't they get just one person there with a dissenting view?

And they can't argue that 'it's been given in other matches' because the refs have been letting everything go. Scottish bloke just wasn't strong enough and went looking for contact. Fuck off.

One shot all game and that was over the bar. Back to Britain you go.

I'm pretty confident after watching that dross that Australia would touch up both of those sides.

Read online yesterday a bloke suggested just look at the legs for offside. I though that's not bad but why not go further and say just the feet.

Yes there'd still be millimetre calls every now and then but at least the shoulder/arm/head/chest garbage would be gone.

Thoughts?

I did see that clip this morning (sound off mind you) and thought straight away (well, at least after the replays), yep - that's not a penalty at all. I gather the referee would have a much, much better view that the normal TV Hard Cam so would have easily come to that conclusion quickly as well.

EDIT: actually, no I lie - I did watch the second time round with the audio on. And just flabbergasted at the words that were used like "Can't believe it wasn't even checked."
Well... good. If people like that are going to complain about VAR constantly and how it's overused, don't complain that you aren't told about every single check. Of course it was checked. Just not formally. In F1 terms, the stewards saw it and decided it wasn't worth noting.

yer I'm sick of the angled shoulder edge/or the elbow/a nose for even sillier eg.
The foot is your pushing power for momentum more than anything else but where do you draw the line - the attackers toes/mm's ahead of the defenders feet ?
VAR has made this so much harder trying to find a solution ffs.
It was so simple before errors or not.
Funnily we have disputes/errors just as when without tech.

Nah the foot is where 95% of goals come from. So just judge it on the foot position. We're stuck with it now and seeing it's an 'objective' decision at least it's being limited to something that's 'easy' to judge.

Ummmmmm I get the fact that off side "should" be measured with any body part that can score legally ... personally I was a fan of (I think Arse Wenger) that said there should be clear daylight between the offside player and second to last defender ... would make it alot easier for linos AND give attack the benefit of the doubt????

I'm curious as to what the wording is in other sports - just for shits and gigs (As in player placements and where they measure from), especially with sports where video refereeing is a societal norm.

Rugby League uses the following for Offside:
A player is offside if he has one foot (either on or off the ground) in front of a teammate who ‘last touches, is touched, held or kicked the ball’

Interesting nothing else further than that, so no clarification (at least in the rule book) on how much in front, etc etc (like we have in football)

I agree i'm not sure what they thought it was a penalty when it looked like a typical 50/50 duel, harder to give a penalty for that when the game is so tight as well.

Went over this in another thread. Personally I believe Wenger's proposal is a nightmare. I'll see if I can find what I wrote. It was a longish post on why I think it won't improve matters. If anything most teams will fall back and play a deep block because it'll be too easy to beat offside. I think it's a recipe for a shit football experience.

@mono.

Just found it. Down the bottom of this thread.

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/3114578/Proposed-change-to-Offside-rules#bm3114704

Shit, where the hell was I in that thread? Must have missed it :P.....

I get your point, fair enough. Look I honestly dont know what the answer is, from a purely match experience perspective I want rules that are as clearly identifiable to the officials as they are to the mug in the terraces 200 yds away. I know this whole "nostalgia bias" thing is what the youngsters are beating our generation over the head with but I long for the days where the ball would ripple the net, you would look to the lino in the agony of expectation, no flag, the ref, arm pointing to the centre and that all took a fraction of fraction of second before you screamed in delight and hugged a random stranger next to you.....  I just wanna hug strangers again.... :)

In rugby league it is the foot even tho u cant score with the foot haha

But, you can play with the foot.

The main thing I was looking for in it was they don't have any clarification other than "foot is in front of the kicker". There's not anything like "the whole foot in front", etc

Nothing stopping you ;)

Is that another way of saying I wish and long for the ol KISS principle :) 

A lot of potential clarity tonight. England should be fine but they have the question of what if they lose and Denmark win. 

Austria and Turkey don't have the best of hands with point totals or potential GD should England finish 3rd but that's way away. Group E is mental. If Scotland had won it would've been even tighter. Hungary can not be feeling comfortable I think. The Turkey Czech game at the very last may be the decider for a lot of things. 

Yep, I think that Turkey v Czech game is the one to watch to finalise the third place getters.

Have had a more in-depth look at what happens if Italy finishes third, as 3 points for 3rd place very well could be the cut-off point for progressing (only possible if Croatia defeat Italy AND Albania fails to defeat Spain - so have updated the scenarios for tonight below (subpoint under the first instance of this happening - but will apply if Italy finishes third in any situation):

• If Spain AND Italy win tomorrow, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place
  
• If Spain wins AND Italy v Croatia ends in a draw, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, and Italy will progress in 2nd place
• If Spain win AND Croatia win, Croatia will finish in 2nd place, with Italy 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) provided they do not lose by 3 goals or more.
• A 3-0 loss for Italy will put Italy equal with Hungary on the 3rd Place Standings for both GD and GF. On disciplinary points, Italy is currently on 4, with Hungary on 10. In the event Italy receive exactly 6 disciplinary points, Hungary will be ahead of Italy on the 3rd Place Standings due to better finishing record in the Qualifying stage.
• A 3 goal loss for Italy (whilst still scoring a goal, eg 4-1, 5-2) will see Italy ahead of Hungary due to higher goals scored.
• Any loss below 3 goals will see Italy ahead of Hungary due to higher goal difference.
• If Albania wins AND Italy win, Italy will progress in 2nd, and Albania 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) and should progress
• If Albania wins AND Italy v Croatia ends in a draw, Italy will progress in 2nd, and Albania 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) and should progress
  
• If Albania wins AND Croatia wins, Italy will be eliminated, with Albania and Croatia split in 2nd and 3rd on overall goal difference (Albania currently 2 goals ahead)
• If Spain v Albania ends in a draw AND Italy wins, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place.
• If Spain v Albania ends in a draw AND Croatia wins, with Italy 3rd (and ahead of Hungary) provided they do not lose by 4 goals or more.
• If both Spain v Albania and Italy v Croatia end in a draw, Group B 3rd place is eliminated, with Italy progressing in 2nd place.

In relation to other groups, I'm pretty sure these are the main matches that will affect 3rd place in the event that Italy finishes in 3rd:

• IF England v Slovenia ends without England winning, this guarantees that the lower place of Groups A and B 3rd place will be eliminated.
• BOTH of Groups A and B will be eliminated if:
• England fails to defeat Slovenia AND
• Georgia defeat Portugal AND Czechia defeat Turkey OR Czechia defeats Turkey by 2 goals or less - regardless of the Georgia v Portugal result.

Mama Mia ! 

Tense added time now. Never on but funny how 2 late Albania goals would turn it all on its head. Ticker says Spain just walking and Albania have been woeful on the ball.

Italy will rank ahead of Hungary if it stays like this so they should be fine. 

That is so undeserved for Italy and Croatia just stupid in not holding the ball. 

FORZA ! 

England are into the Euro 2024 knockout stages after Spain's win over Albania. 

The result also sees France and the Netherlands qualify.

The 3rd place combinations have been updated massively with only about 5 possible ones remaining. Much more clarity if that sense. 

Combination table all green again. It's normally more reliable than that. People just stuffing around with it. 

What a last 30mins of that game + 8 !
Feel for Luca but Donna stopped the pen deserved retribution imo.
What lead up play and sensationally taken 1st goal to Zaccagni !
A peach of a take ! 

Great game this morning....  Fantastic penalty save and that last minute scorcher.... wow.