Goals will be hard to come by this season regardless.

Yeah, I don't think we're going to have that one striker who can tear teams apart and have a 15-goal season. Nagai, Maclaren, Sidnei will probably all get a shot at some point. Wouldn't mind grabbing an extra out and out striker for depth, if nothing else... But then again maybe we'll rely more on wingers this season.

It's just starting to dawn on me that we didn't really replace Liam Miller. His combination with Jamieson and Nagai really made us a force at the end of last year. I think we'll feel his lost early on unless McGarry and Burns are fit and ready to play that short option role all over the park.

[size=9]New Perth Glory Forum[/size]

http://gloryforum.com

Guys here is the Perth Glory forum, i think we should all sign up and try and make it active?

Just joined up... same username

Good man, it's a bit primitive but hopefully he is open to suggestions.

I'll sign up tomorrow, it's a bit sad we don't have an active forum.

Edited by iridium1010: 6/8/2013 12:24:33 AM

Just make me a mod and we'll get this party started :lol:
I have a habit of making sure threads get prolific on this forum, i'm sure i can do it elsewhere :lol:

Wish I could, I wanted to make my own but wasn't sure if I needed a free board or a paid one.

I think with Smeltz he needs to be getting direct scoring chances or he doesn't really work very well in te team... that either means getting him the ball on the counter-attack so he has space to run through a defence and score, or getting him the ball in or near the penalty box so he can take the final shot.

Since we are likely to play possession rather than counter-attacking football, it seems likely to me it'll then be the 5 midfielders being required to knock the ball about and get forward. The striker will need to drop in occassionally as a passing option but would primarily be there as almost a poacher or pure goalscorer (think Soldado in the Confederations Cup or Klose for Germany). In this role, Harold could really thrive if the service for him was good enough... so with Smeltz, Harold, Maclaren and Makeche we have enough depth.

I still think we could've been well-served be a different style of forward... a genuine strong hold-up player who could allow us to keep the same shape but ease pressure on the defence by allowing quicker more direct play out from the back (with the CF holding it up so the midfield can press forward). Sometimes it's not just the number of bodies it's the ability of them to play differently that gives you real depth.

Almost sounds like we'd have been better off keeping Mehmet than Smeltz, bovs :D

Though I personally think we could find better hold up men than he...

To be perfectly honest, between the 2 I thought Mehmet was having the better season until he left last time out.

I think our squad would've been a lot stronger if we'd kept Mehmet, lost Smeltz and used that money to sign 1 more quality CM and a "Smeltz-lite" style CF (basically a Djite, Garcia, Juric or Brockie standard player who could perform possibly equally well but would not command a marquee salary).

I'm not unhappy with Smeltz and I don't think it's the end of the world if HalloranHarold, Maclaren and Makeche are the back-ups... but I do think it doesn't represent an optimal use of the salary cap + marquee spot. Even if Smeltz has a 12-goal season I wouldn't necessarily think it represented value-for-money.

Edited by bovs: 7/8/2013 03:13:29 PM

Harold :)

Harold... Halloran... they're both ex-GCU so same dif. Actually I reckon Harold is possibly the better player and it's only the way he was being used by Fergie that meant that Halloran went on to do well at the Roar and secured a move to Germany while Harold remains a fringe A-League player.

Harold either on the wing or up front I think could be the big bolter for us and establish himself as a quality HAL player.

Well, it may not be AS BAD as we make out - Smeltz is only out for a couple games and I have a feeling that SURELY an old pro, still in his prime, like Smeltz can only return with a bang, somepoint, during this season. Smeltz is the kind of striker who can pop up out of nowhere in games to score a crucial goal or two. And he could also go from a barren patch to a 'purple patch' quite quickly.

Smeltz could STILL score 8, 9, even double digit goals this season, especially if he strikes fitness and form this season. IIRC That's a fair part what affected his form last season wasn't it? Fitness and absence (NT call up) issues which interrupted his season and affected his form like it does many pro players?

AND a good coach like Edwards and a quality player like Smeltz, especially with this youngish skewed side who is now clearly reliant on his quality upfront. It could still potentially work quite well. Smeltz, like the rest, gets his chance at a 'fresh start' under Edwards, so hopefully it works out.

Also even if it's NOT Smeltz scoring, his presence on the pitch, draws markers and may create space and opportunity for the others around him too. Either way, it would make a difference having a fit Smeltz on the pitch, for sure.



Yeah, we discussed this before somewhere. The CM region lost alot of quality in losing BOTH Miller and Cordoba. The replacements for that 'void' are largely young and/or existing talents. Though Sidnei 'could' slot in behind Smeltz or whoever, some games this season - you never know.

Maybe we just have to accept that that's part of the cost cutting and reduced side that Glory is this era. I mean, it's representative both of the new approach, but also indicative of where 'the oldier & costlier' fat was inpart as we've gone from chock full of depth and quality there to more slender and orientated on youth and 'potential'.

Cameron Edwards, Brandon O'Neill, loanee Ryan Edwards and possibly others are all chances to start. As too likes of Zahra, Harold, De Silva out wide if a Sidnei switches inside or shifts upfront. Or McGarry (If need be via line up shuffle), De Silva or MacLaren behind Smeltz etc...

Having quite a flexible team could be handy come injuries or absences like Smeltz. We have already discussed how there are a few options to slot in there. Same with role behind the front striker and even deeper mid perhaps.

Edited by GloryPerth: 7/8/2013 04:21:18 PM

The change between Fergie's formation and Ali's formation kind of means we didn't need to directly replace Miller.

Burns and McGarry will have a lock on the defensive CM combination, with one central AM to balance. With Fergie the 'AM' (usually McGarry or Mehmet from memory) was really more of a second striker, so one of the CMs (Miller) had to perform more of a box-to-box role to compensate.

In effect a Da Silva or Sidnei or Nagai plus McGarry is the replacement for a Mehmet or McGarry in attack) and Miller. It's pretty much an equal proposition but with a more fluent structure.

Also, with the 2 DMs and one AM with no 'all-action" CM makes it a lot easier to replace and rotate players. When Miller was out last season, we struggled because no-one could play his aggressive passing game going forward while also being willing to apply the defensive pressure than Miller gave us.

Um...isn't that what's happening again?

No pre-season because of injury/surgery....Check
Absences because of NT call up early on....Check

Smeltz was ONLY out for a few games last season. LOOK how that turned out and history is repeating.

Hmm woh, fair call ATE, just the one differential may be then, Ali Edwards? Let's hope that's enough of a differential. Dare one says, Smeltz may've been suffering 'Fergie/Glory fatigue' like some of the other players during that dire run. So again, chance for a 'fresh start' with Edwards and this squad, this season.

It may be interrupted again, but it's 'new scenary' and really, after-all, forgot to bring up - He IS in the last season of his contract, right? His infamous 'Marquee level' contract which Sage and Fergie got in an indirect argument about shortly before Fergie's departure. With many all but saying that Smeltz has NOT been 'the bang' for his buck and 'cost cutting' being the order of the day, Smeltz remains the last vestige of Glory's big spending days. Smeltz surely feels the pressure, pressure to perform for his career, for a contract renewal/new contract and given he enters his 30s, his career.

BTW No doubt other A-League clubs would seek him out, but NOT as a Marquee, not anymore, and consequently not quite as the headline act he once was as recently as the season before. That downward trend will only continue unless he pulls a rabbit out and starts scoring again.

He's essentially playing for his career, this season - both contract and reputation wise.



Oh strong tactical points Bovs, I see. Overlooked that aspect in 'the change' so indeed there isn't always the need for 'direct' replacements, when the tactical line up has tweaked.

That's another reason why it's not such a problem with the shallow strike rotation, with not only the 1 upfront, but as we've suggested, the more fluid structure and approach, seeing less reliance on the 'out and out striker'.

Perhaps not unlike Ange and co, with their 'False #9's' etc?

Edited by GloryPerth: 7/8/2013 06:32:06 PM

I'm not sure many other players would see it as a fresh start in their third season at a club but ok. Nor do I think Smeltz is the sort of player that would be happy to lose his spot to a bunch of kids. So it will be interesting how an unfit, interrupted, playing for his spot, Smeltz will go.

As for the tactics I'm not really following what's different from Fergie's 4-2-31 to Ali's 4-2-3-1 except that in bov's example the DM's now do less work? So does that mean the AMs will?

I'm interested in seeing how Burns fits in any formation or tactical plan where he doesn't play as a 5th defender.

ATE, I mean how it's a 'clean slate' for any players when a new coaching regime comes in. I know Edwards isn't technically 'so new' given he came in late last season, but it was an interrupted season and Edwards only came in late.

Edwards can only REALLY instil his philosophy, changes and tactical approach, now, after a full pre-season and associated squad/personnel adjustments.

So Smeltz and all the other existing squad players, as we notice with O'Neill for instance, could be considered to be seeing a 'fresh start'. You know, in terms of how Edwards views them, seeks to utilise them, motivates them, manages them and flipside, how they respond, are motivated, understanding of their demands etc...

That's another test of Edwards too really, in overall terms. He, it could be considered, came in mid/late-season and was the associated benefactor of that inevitable boost when you get that mid-season change of coach. But now is the real deal, it's his squad, full season prep - he's not quite the new boy coming in with players playing for their contracts, he was last season. So a new dynamic and challenge.

Edited by GloryPerth: 7/8/2013 08:30:31 PM

FERGIE:

---------------CF------------------.
-----------------------------------.
-----------------AM----------------.
LM-------------------------------RM.
-----------------------------------.
-----------CM----------------------.
-----------------------------------.
-----------------------------------.
--------------------DM-------------.
-----------------------------------.
LB-------------------------------RB.
-----------------------------------.
-----------------------------------.
-------CB------------CB------------.


EDWARDS:

---------------CF-----------------.
----------------------------------.
---LM-----------------------RM-----.
-----------------------------------.
---------------AM------------------.
-----------------------------------.
-----------------------------------.
----------CM-----------------------.
--------------------DM-------------.
-----------------------------------.
LB-------------------------------RB.
-----------------------------------.
-----------------------------------.
-------CB------------CB------------.


It's sort of roughly how I see it, but essentially what it's trying to show is that under Fergie the CM (Miller) is effectively the playmaker linking the other 4 midfielders (and the FBs if they join the attack). The CM then also needs to track back and apply defensive pressure which we regularly saw from Miller making tackles and winning the ball back in our own half.

Under Edwards the subtle change is that the playmaker is the AM (hence why we saw Miller playing closer to goal, which many observers identify as leading to the improvement in form). The AM links the pentagon around him, while the CM plays in a deeper supporting role and is already back to lock up the counter-attack.

Under Fergie's system, you NEED a Miller-type who is a compotent playmaker and also able to get back and win the ball. If we didn't have Miller we never would've been able to get into that GF under Fergie because so few other players can play that role so well (it's almost like an HAL version of Gerrard or Scholes being equally comfortable on the ball or winning a tackle). The AM is basically a deeper lying forward looking to provide a shorter option for the playmaker or work off the CF.

Under Edwards, you don't need that same player. Your non-destroyer CM (likely McGarry) sits back in a support role, only looking to create from deeper positions to get the AM, LW or RW into dangerous positions around the box. He then holds back. The AM (Da Silva, Nagai or Sidnei) is your key playmaker connecting everyone. The wingers then need to be more willing to come inside and support the striker, as you're AM will have to drop more into a midfield role to be the playmaker. Nagai, Harold and Maclaren (and Dodd last season) would be perfect examples of guys who can be equally comfortable hitting the by-line or cutting inside.


It's not a massive, massive change... but it's definitely enough that you don't *need* a Miller-style player in the CM role. McGarry(CM)+Da Silva(AM) under Edwards [if Da Silva is as good as we all want him to be] is possibly a stronger combination that Miller(CM)+McGarry(AM) under Fergie. Indeed, if we had Miller(CM)+Da Silva(AM) I think you'd run a risk of Da Silva being marginalised on the field and not permitted to play to his full potential.


Edited by bovs: 8/8/2013 11:27:25 AM

Rumours of Garcia to Jets
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=84905

Bullcrap if it happens, really want him to play for us

Interesting Bovs. Indeed there are definitely changes in approach, you see it in how the side performs, structurally.

Also, just all the stars are aligning against us on Garcia I think. Perhaps if it were a few months earlier and prior to signing the likes of MacLaren and even Sidnei, we may've had a chance, given our positional demands and even cap room perhaps... but with the squad now, Glory are well set from third AND with whatever few spots they have left, the priorities may be elsewhere on the park (Like more DM or CB cover?)

Edited by GloryPerth: 8/8/2013 05:42:55 PM

Be interesting to know the reason why we are not in for Garcia.

Is it all related to Ali wanting to give youth a decent opportunity and not pick up a 30yo injury prone 'star' who will demand a regular start, or is Sage's belt tightening also a big part of our decision?

Good question - I suspect it's both somehow? You wouldn't think Edwards would instantly turn down Garcia. 'Timing' 'could' be an issue as I suspect (We've signed similar position players in MacLaren and Sidnei), though in the end 'wage demands' seem to be the crux of Garcia's issues at the moment, with Heart and Glory. Glory apparently made him an offer of 80k a lil while ago, which was rejected. That certainly would've been a lower end of the scale offer for a player like he. But perhaps stumping up more than $200k is also seen as 'out of limits' for Glory, Sage and their goals to 'keep costs down'? But now too, the squad demands, sees there's no practical room, less the youngins are sidelined more and might also see slight squad imbalance, with so much talent front third, with such slender depth and depth in quality, back half?

Edited by GloryPerth: 8/8/2013 06:27:36 PM

if we are building for the future then really missing out on Garcia is no big deal. i think if we are in the running for finals come December then we should make a splash on the market and try to get another attacking veteran to compliment what we have. if not and this turns into a losing season getting these young guys experience then there is no point giving an aging player game time.

I've got no idea what Garcia is like as a person... but potentially what you're missing out on is a former EPL player to pass on knowledge and drive training intensity within an otherwise quite young group.

Again, I don't know if Garcia is this sort of person and I know you do have Burns and to a lesser extent McGarry and Thwaite as guys who've played at a much higher level, but probably one extra senior head who has had a taste of the big time wouldn't have hurt.

I wouldn't count Sidnei (foreigner/unknown quantity), Nagai (youngster), Pantelidis and Vukovic (really just Aussie standard players with no major overseas experience) or Smeltz (only played in English lower leagues) as having a taste of higher standard professional football.

has anyone actually heard that Ali will be playing a 4-2-3-1???

I had a feeling last season he used a 4-3-2-1 system so that the players didn't have to adapt to a newer formation.

I can't recall what formation he used when with the under 20's. Does anyone know?

I guess the prevalence of 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 in the national curriculum and Edwards's background with that it's kind of just assumed...

4-4-2 seems highly unlikely, and with the high number of attacking mids compared to defensive mids and centre-backs you'd assume 3-at-the-back was out.

Anything else (4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 / 4-1-4-1 / 4-4-1-1) are all pretty much adjustments of the same thing if you assume a fluid playing style.



As per my above post - Ali's 4-2-3-1 was somewhat different to how Fergie played it. They were both 4-2-3-1 but at times Fergie's looked more like 4-4-1-1, while Edwards often looked a bit like 4-1-4-1... I'd say Edwards's style was the more modern and possession-based take on a 4-2-3-1.

I expect we'll basically play a 4-3-3... the wingers will be basically wide forwards, while the centre 3 will be one destroyer (Burns), one traditional but defensively set centre-mid (McGarry) and one attacking mid acting as a playmaker behind the front 3 (Da Silva).

All true bovs, but end of the day, squad demands. Squad almost full now...

Yet... Dodd is out and there IS that Injury Replacement place and his 200k wage...

We COULD sign him as a tricky technicality? Aka as IR for Dodd first season... then we either release Dodd for 2014/15 season, once his contract expires (Quite likely we will, or he retires) or we shift Garcia to a proper contract via other, usual, off-season squad 'adjustments'?

But again, still an issue with squad demands, given ALL the talent we already have there. But then again that problem is ALSO caused, indirectly, by Dodd. As we have ALL these 'wing capable' players including the two VISA signings... An we have 'some' of those players as they are 'already' 'Dodd replacements'? Zahra comes back from a long term injury and would be fighting with Harold, De Silva (Who can play AM and CM too), loanee Ryan Edwards, Fergie legacy Isaka Cernak..., MacLaren can play there and ofcourse the currently injured Dodd. It 'seems' as almost a quarter of the squad are wide capable!

If anything that's a slight imbalance in the squad already, especially as atleast 1-2 of those players will see more limited game time this season, due to the VISA players being the primary options for both flanks and the role behind Smeltz has many of these same candidates as too possibly 1-2 others.

It's again a slight regret we, for some reason, still have Fergie's last signing Cernak (Why could that have not been cancelled? Edwards wanted to keep him?) and even Dodd? IF we didn't have those two, or even just Cernak, I'd seem a bit more comfortable signing Garcia, rotation wise?

We sign Garcia - great - he'd be behind Smeltz in our formation. Then you'd have the VISAs either side. That leaves all of De Silva (Primarily AM, Garcia's possie), Harold (W/ST), Cernak (W/AM), Zahra (W), the Edwards brothers (W/CM) and even O'Neill (CM/CB) and MacLaren (ST/AM Though he's technically Smeltz back up with Makeche), fighting for crumbs?

It's tough conundrum. But obviously in the end, Edwards knows best.

Edited by GloryPerth: 9/8/2013 11:57:05 PM

Re: Cernak, once you sign a contract with a player you can't just cancel it even if they're not playing for you yet... You either need to both agree to tear it up if the player can find a new club, or you have to pay it out / honour it.