Nothing wrong playing the long ball style of game........ :-&

I think it's a bit of a trap to look at the 4-2-3-1 and say, "Well you just have 2 defensive midfielders, one of which is better on the ball and pushes a bit higher up." Really, this dual defensive midfield system for me gained prominence with Pirlo and Gattuso with Italy. Both sat deep and covered in front of the back 4, with Pirlo blocking the channels and Gatuso attacking the ball. Pirlo's extremely good long-range passing then got the ball to the attacking players without the opposition properly setting their defence, and the whole thing worked.

These days, you'll tend to see lesser quality teams try the same thing but when your "number 8" is just a regular midfielder they don't really get time to push forward from the blocking position and therefore usually end up not actually blocking the opposition channels. You end up with 2 guys trying to press the ball and it regularly exposes your full-backs to 1-on-1 situations (which since the main benefit of the formation is to allow you to pick more attacking full-backs kind of nullifies the whole tactic).

Basically the 4-2-3-1 as you see with most teams outside of the top tier becomes just a version of 4-4-2 where one forward drops behind the other and then the 2 central midfielders both sit deep rather than acting as box-to-box style midfielders. It's exactly this modification that leads to what we've seen from Perth Glory consistently for a number of years... *every* attack goes from a deep defensive position to a winger, and the winger is basically expected to beat 1 or 2 men and then generate a scoring chance. The supply is not there because you've got no genuine central midfielders and unless your number 10 is an absolute gun they won't find the space to receive the ball themselves to release the wingers. Marinkovic, REdwards, Pellegrino, etc. have all been examples of inadequate number 10s that have gotten isolated in central midfield.

The one exception was when we had Miller and Cordoba combining in midfield, because they were both very dynamic and able to both fill channels in defence and push forward when on the ball. It's no coincidence that Perth's best football was when both these players were in central midfield positions.

I don't think it's a trap to say both midfielders don't do the same job, aren't both screeners. Even in your example, Pirlo is the one who's passing it forward, regardless of how Italy employed him to do that. Adelaide, WSW, Heart at times, Sydney were able to employ the 4-2-3-1 effectively. Even Ferguson managed to do it when injuries forced him to play one striker. Glory got a GF appearances out of that.

I think it's a lot similar to a 4-3-3, just depends on how high you want the central players really. But yes, trying to adapt a 4-4-2 system into it is fraught with danger.

Just because all the other teams find success with Asian, South American, German, Albanian, etc, imports, that's no reason to think Glory can't continue their outstanding success by only ever going straight back to England - unless someone luckily lands in our lap from elsewhere.

That time of year for throwing up all manner of names.
Only this morning the news reported Ferdinand not being offered a new ManU contract, and the next breath was, 'could he be coming to the A League?'

If you push the second midfielder far enough ahead of the first, at what point does he stop playing next to the defensive midfielder and start playing next to the attacking midfielder?


Personally, I think 4-3-3 better reflects a "working" version of the system. Basically... both come from 4-4-2. In the case of 4-2-3-1 you've dropped your 2 central midfielders back to allow your wide players to push higher up, and you've dropped your number 10 deeper to compensate for the 2 DMs. In the case of 4-3-3 you've only dropped one of your 2 central midfielders back, but you've pushed your number 10 right back into the centre of midfield to compensate for your wingers pushing up into the forward line.

I like teams that utilise the second option better, because you can really mix up the balance between the wingers and the centre-forward. With the 4-2-3-1, most teams struggle without the dominant number 10 because the whole formation is basically built around him.

I would argue, by the way, that Adelaide play a 4-3-3. As for Sydney and Heart, well as I said the 4-2-3-1 works with a dominant 10 (Kewell and Del Piero are the perfect types of player to make that formation work). WSW are the one A-League team that has managed to get the 4-2-3-1 ticking as a team-based system and Popovic deserves all the credit he gets for that.

Of course... debating formations is really like debating grammar or semantics. It's just the way you present the information or in this case the style employed by a team. 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1... they're all the same thing but with different players pushed into slightly different roles.

Obviously you don't play it as 1-1-1 midfield. You've got to have one of those "DMs" push up in attack otherwise you're leaving yourself swamped and it's pointless having only 4 in attack every time, you'll get double teamed. You're #6 screens/wins the ball gives it to #8, who passes it to one of the forward 4 and he pushes up into space giving a diagonal option between fullbacks and wingers. Of course it's all dependant on game-plan and ball situation.

Clearly when defending they're on the line together but if they're static and unmoving then it's just as bad as a 4-4-2. The whole point of the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 is the tactical flexibility and the diagonals and triangles it opens on.

The 4-3-3 has their wingers more like forwards too, although with Brisbane they have the versatility of Broich/McKay/Franjic being able to play centrally. Then it's just a case of where the 1 central mid is; at anchor in front of defence or playmaker in front of forwards (which is basically similar to 4-2-3-1).

4-2-3-1 the wingers can work more like normal wingers (unless you're called Sidnei) in a 4-4-2 but allows the fullbacks to come forward more like a 4-3-3.

Adelaide Main Formation (mids + fwds)
----Watson-Sanchez----
Ferreria-Carrusca-Cirio
------------Djite-----------

I like it as a standard formation, I think it works but without having to have the specific skills the 4-3-3 requires to work and isn't so one-dimensional and static like 4-4-2. I really think that (special exemptions) should become redundant. You don't need a second striker. The modern target man now evolves into being able to hold ball up with their feet and link with the #10 or wingers (so that's 3 players, not 1), and your quick poacher becomes a winger/forward anyway so anything you lose with that you compensate with having players to mark on either side of the striker.

I don't really think Glory had the wingers to make an effective 4-3-3. Harold is more a striker/forward anyway but his athleticism can help, Sidnei doesn't track back and now Hersi is just another copy so there's no versatility there either as they never move inside.

I'm not really sold on this 4-4-2 diamond Kenny was trying. It didn't work against Newcastle (the goals came after he abandoned it with the Sidnei sub on) and was fortuitous against CCM. The only good thing I see is that Rostyn was most effective there at CCM as their lynchpin. That was with Arnold coach though. We'll see the differences in coaches next season for sure.

Too bad that we're not going to be using our Australian marquee spot. Would have been a good time to use the spot to try and sign Rukavytsya, now he is not in the WC squad.

Both would be a great pick ups, but surely Wesolowski will remain in the UK, atleast - he's shown good, consistent form with his club, last I checked, and he will have suitors. Neil Kilkenny would be a great pick up, obviously, but not only because he'd be an Aussie, but tactically he'd slot in well, a quality AM at this level - either he or Marinkovic could slot in there with the other, deeper, alongside Rostyn G'? Might lose a little defensively, but alot would be gained, possession/with-the-ball and play-style wise?

The only stumbling block would be wage, especially compared to what rival suitors may offer in the UK? Though if we release Smeltz or re-sign him within the cap then Kilkenny could become the new Aussie marquee. Though if Jdz is right about our no longer utilising the Aussie Marquee - I guess that rules that out?


BTW An inevitable, long speculated, signing confirmed - Hersi now on-board for 2 seasons? Thoughts? :-k

Edited by gloryperth: 15/5/2014 07:23:13 AM

I don’t think very many of my us are happy with Kenny Lowe being given the job. I was pretty mad about it. But I have accepted it now. He’s the coach, and we should get behind him. Use some of that Perth Glory optimism, or faith, that is essential if you want to be a mentally stable Perth Glory fan. He is putting a decent squad together, as he said “the best managers have the best players’ (or something similar). It’s not exactly what you want to hear as your manager’s football philosophy, but it is essentially true, having the best players certainly does help. Tactically, though, I wouldn’t say Kenny is the best, from what I have seen though, but I am a fan of giving managers a full season, with a squad that they have built themselves before I make a proper and fair judgment. As I said, he is putting together good squad, with signings like Dino Dubjic out defence is looking good. With Jamieson, Woodcock, Thwaite, Dino, Risdon, Davies, O’Neil (I prefer him as a Defensive midfielder, though), Clisby, Vukovic (assuming he returns from loan, if he doesn’t, we still have very good keeper in Duncan) and Duncan our defence looks very strong to me. We maybe just need a little more depth, one more signing maybe.
The midfield was the problem this year, well, one of them. If the rumours about Kilkenny and Wesolovski are true, then out midfield looks much better. We have signed Hersi, him and Sidnei on the wings looks strong. We have Griffiths (hasn’t shown it, but I believe he is quality, with a good preseason he can be one of out best players), Possibly Kilkenny, Possibly Wesolovski, Marinkovic, De Silva, O’Neill, Harold (when he plays as a winger), Sidnei and Hersi. If we play a 4-1-2-3, with Griffiths as a DM, De Silva and Kilkenny as the central/attacking midfielders, and Sidnei and Hersi on the wings, the midfield looks reasonably strong, with Marinkocic, Wesolovski and O’Neill sitting on the bench. Again, we maybe need more depth, but the midfield looks pretty reasonable if we get those signings.
As for the forwards, they are probably the main problem. With the possibility (or likelihood) of losing Smeltz, how, although didn’t have the best season, mostly due to injury and lack of supply by this year’s inept midfield, is still probably the best striker in the league on his day. Apart from him we have Harold, MacLaren a Sidnei (he played as a striker towards the end of this season). We desperately need to make a signing there, if we lose Smeltz and I don’t know who I could have in mind. Maybe, possibly, brink back Ruka. But that’s a dream, and he plays mostly on the wing now anyway.
Anyway, we have a decent squad, and with the signings of Dino, Kilkenny, Wesolovski, Hersi, maybe another midfielder, and a quality striker, we would have a team capable of making the finals, possibly top 4. The problem I have with that is, I don’t think that is what we should be aiming for. We shouldn’t be making signings with the short term goal of making finals next year. We should have a longer term goal, sign the best youth. Don’t let the best WA youth go, and play them. We might finish low next season, but we would be better set for the future, and I would happily to sacrifice a couple of seasons if it means we can challenge for the title in the next few. Unfortunately, the goal seems short term, make the finals this year. But then what? Either way, I am optimistic about next season, we should make finals with these signings. And if Kenny Lowe really is the right choice, which I hope he is, he might be able to take us higher. Who knows, in a couple of years, Kenny Lowe might turn out to be the best decision this club ever made. Probably not. But you have to be optimistic as a Perth Glory fan. How else do you cope?

--------------------------------------Vukovic-----------------------------------------
-----Risdon-----------Thwaite------------Dubjic---------------Jamieson-----
-----------------------------------Griffiths-------------------------------------------
----------------------De Silva----------------Kilkenny-----------------------------
----Hersi----------------------New Striker-------------------------Sidnei-------

Edited by ThomasEmilioDavies: 15/5/2014 01:11:32 PM

Agree, think if he signs Kilkenny and a decent striker he has done pretty well squad wise and that may appease my disappointment. But I don't think he is a good enough coach and I doubt he will be able to deliver the peace offering of Kilkenny and a good striker. Can't but help think if he does build a decent squad it will be wasted on him.

By the way have you heard of 'paragraphs'?



Edited by soil: 15/5/2014 01:28:38 PM

"Shane Smeltz has been offered another contract but the situation is now that we will not have an Australian marquee position at the club next season," said Sage.

But as we all know, Sage says one thing and does another.

Seems to be a lot of expectation that the first 2 names mentioned as being looked at by Glory will be signed.
That's not the Glory way, and I'd expect we'll have at least another 7 or 8 names thrown up, with probably a few absolute fantasy expectations as well (wasn't Messi mentioned as a possible move somewhere?), before Glory commit to probably someone that no one has ever heard of.

New paragraph, and I'd hoped the Smeltz issue would have been sorted long ago. Maybe he was waiting till he thought he was fit enough to go asking, or maybe waited till Brisbane gave him the cold shoulder. With 3 matches left this year, the gurus told me Smeltz had just signed a contract extension with Glory. Unbelievable, and I couldn't stop laughing at that, or the other one they said about Kenny having been given the job full time for next year.
Whoops.

Another new paragraph, and already it is seeming difficult that there will be not too many spots for any of the young players next season. Just showing what a wasted opportunity and wasted season we had. From day one it was going to be a rebuilding year with youth getting lots of experience, but that got changed one night in Melbourne. It is very hard to get enthused about what my club is doing, and as the guy at work says, we start from a very, very low base, and from our level we have only one direction we can go. Let's hope we don't just stay at the same level.

Doubt weather Rukavytsya would be any good for a marque spot we need a Broich type of player before we will see a big improvment in our squod Ruka should have stayed here he hasent set the world on fire over there he is battling for game time.

First, these two so called "targets" are just names being thrown up to try to appease the gullible that we are aiming 'big' next season. Both are entrenched in the UK and won't be coming to Oz anytime soon (Kilkenny probably never will, as he is more or less British anyway).

Second, Kilkenny is a controversial player amongst fans. Even his supporters acknowledge that he is not very mobile and though he can pass, most of it is sideways and back. His main qualities seem to be finding small spaces and shielding the ball and holding on to possession under duress. Otherwise it is more or less universally acknowledged that he lacks pace and defensive abilities and also regularly mouths off at his own players, referees etc...

A few years ago, I photoshopped Messi onto a Perth Glory player's body, I think it was Fowler. I posted it to the Perth Glory facebook page, and then they shared it.

Watch him lure Michael Bridges out of retirement and sign him as the international marquee!!! :lol:

I will try to stay positive I think Heineken ...

I wouldn't expect much action in the transfer arena until after the world cup.

As I've said in this thread for a year or so now, Kilkenny would be amazing. At this level he'll have plenty of time to pick passes, and he plays a killer pass better than any Aussie, bar maybe Bresciano. Sidney and Hersi on the wings is potent, so playing balls in behind and over the top will be great. Just need a striker in the middle to bang them away. Maybe hanging onto Smeltz for one more year wouldn't be a bad thing.

Jesus Christ has anyone voted for the consultative committee yet on the PGFC homepage? 14 nominees but only 13 options to vote for...

We can't even get a simple voting poll right.

Yep. It's pretty average and also open to rorting.

I'm actually one of the nominees and my paragraph has two typos that weren't there when I sent it to them. I've asked them to fix it but still waiting ...

Anyway, if you haven't voted, please consider voting for me. I think I am a pretty reasonable person who has something to offer and would be happy to answer any questions people on the forum might have.

If successful, I will also provide a report here on the forum following committee meetings.

*gives vote to biscuit* *biscuit gives me 20 dollar*

It's the perth glory way:)

Would be great if someone on the forum got in, good luck everyone who applied.

I'll give u two biscuit;)

All of you are long-term supporters, involved in the supporters group or engaging with the club in various ways, over the years - good candidates and shows the quality of support the club has/potentially has!

This maybe technically 'unfair' - but how many other A-League clubs could say they have had supporters following the club for 18 years etc...?! This just again reminds of the great potential Glory has and possibly the underachievers they've been since entering the A-League, poorly served by poor owners or administration/management? :/

But not to be negative, hopefully this committee idea can be meaningful and the candidates feel they really do have a voice, are listened to and it's an initiative that evolves positively on the back of productive outcomes? Hopefully you guys truly feel that the club is consulting you and us - truly feel you are being engaged in the role you have been entitled and together the club and fans can move forward with better engagement and wisdom learned.

In regards to rigging or whatever - with it being based as an internet poll it's really quite 'random' and open to trolling, so hopefully a number of members are seeing this poll (I only found out due to your post here, Perth Red - though haven't checked e-mail yet) and participating.

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/perthglory/news-display/CONSULTATIVE-COMMITTEE-VOTING-OPENS/90513

Woot got Biscuit to 7%

Good post. Thanks for knowing where your enter key is too.

The competition for youngsters next year will be worse, especially if Smeltz is signed as a backup. With Hersi and Sidnei, Garcia a maybe, even a new young winger will be 5th in depth.

I know people say get behind the coach, but I can't. It may not be his fault but he's the greatest symbol atm of this Regime's failure to run Glory. The lied to us about Lowe, there's no other rational explanation you can come too. They've lied and fucked up so many things and with Lowe, the cycle just keeps repeating from when Sage first took over.


Ruka would be an immense upgrade on Sidnei and Hersi both and can play striker.

But yeah, not going to happen.



Oh dear, I fear you've just described Burns' replacement...

Geez Bovs, I thought you were involved in the last one, thought you'd know better. :D You had my vote anyway, at least you're not a yes man but geez, this is on a hiding to nothing. It's history repeating, even some of the applicants...

Sorry Biscuit, I voted for Bovs but good luck. I don't really understand why it is a public poll. Especially a public poll that only has 13/14 options...though see it's 14 now.

Also thought it was meant to have representatives of a wide range of the fan base, not have 14 applicants in a popularity contest.

Hopefully the 8 is made up of all or most of: Bovs, Biscuit, Korver, Duffy, Imam and the women.

Over/Under on it lasting longer than the other one?

Thanks.

I'm sure you won't mind, I've put your $20 on Glory to be Champions next season ...

Here is the link for anyone looking to vote

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F1iO3hZg&h=mAQHVQL2-&enc=AZNASsn23iPrx7ke2etHflOTT5bpcObMWs64wYzK3QehfS_xP0Fu0qsnkT8igVJYCZcXO7tl-JMZo5eCmJZw9Cm3EwxuQr8a2x9EmPqrcVEWYkUoSw7G6fnPhaCxnOHH6TCzuFSPRqrPpXxvRmOFLkxp&s=1


Edited by biscuitman1871: 15/5/2014 10:21:19 PM

:lol:

Wait bovs is in the poll too?

8% now!

This is great, when we fuck up next season ima just blame Biscuit :lol:

"Risk it, pick Biscuit"

:lol: