Joffa
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Quote:Why Harry had to go 20/06/2010 9:20 AM Bren O'Brien in Rustenburg Sportal Harry Kewell said he was devastated, Pim Verbeek said he was perplexed but Italian referee Roberto Rosetti got it exactly right when he sent off the Socceroos striker early in the World Cup match against Ghana. Kewell's red card and penalty for handling Jonathan Mensah's goal bound shot will no doubt draw plenty of criticism back home. It is a devastating blow to lose your most dynamic player with your team leading 1-0 and on the verge of resurrecting its World Cup dream. The immediate reaction, both at the stadium and on social networking sites was that Australia had once again been dudded by a cheating Italian. Rosetti had somehow conspired to send Kewell off as a means of punishing Australia and perhaps helping an African team into the second round. That is utter rubbish and belies the fact that the referee followed the law regarding handling the ball in the area to the letter. Yes, Kewell was unlucky, but Rosetti had no choice. Verbeek, Kewell and several other Socceroos said they felt that why it was probably a penalty, it did not deserve a red card. Clearly they have not read the FIFA regulations which state that: 'A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored.' In considering a handball decision a referee must take into consideration, the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand) and the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball). Kewell gave himself away when he admitted post-match that he moved his shoulder and chest towards the ball in order to block Mensah's shot. While he didn't deliberately use his arm, his movement put his arm in a position to be hit by the shot which was hit from more than seven yards away. Kewell had a chance to move his arm from the ball's path and had he done so, the ball would have gone into the net. As such, Rosetti had no option but to send Kewell off and point to the spot. A couple of Australian players asked how Kewell's offence was any different to that of Serbian defender Nemanja Vidic 24 hours earlier against Germany. The difference was that the ball which Vidic handled was not heading goal-bound, so while the penalty is fair, the red card is not. There is no doubt that Kewell is extremely unlucky to be in that situation but in the heat of the battle, players make decisions which shape their games. Kewell made a decision, no matter how split second, to lean towards the ball with his arm outstretched and for that reason, he was sent off. Of course it is devastating to Australian fans and it makes it very hard to be objective on Rosetti's decision, but it not a disgrace as some may have expected. The only disgrace on the day was the behaviour of some Australian fans at the ground in the second half, who rained some 30 bottles of beer onto the running track around the pitch in protest at the referee's decisions. That is a blight on the game. http://sportal.com.au/football-news-display/why-harry-had-to-go-93456
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leftrightout
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Quote:'A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored.' [-( Sorry, was not deliberate. ](*,)
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CoryNQ
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It's pretty simple - if the referee felt it was a hand ball, then it had to be a red card for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity with the hand, one of the seven send-off offences. It was a massive call to make and the referee had to be 100% sure that Kewell had deliberately handled the ball, but once that decision was made, the red card was the only action possible according to the laws of the game.
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leftrightout
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Well then the studs up tackle from behind on Breciano should have been a straight red too. I feel sorry for Kewell. The ref was very average.
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Proud2BeCanberran
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Quote:Kewell gave himself away when he admitted post-match that he moved his shoulder and chest towards the ball in order to block Mensah's shot. While he didn't deliberately use his arm, his movement put his arm in a position to be hit by the shot which was hit from more than seven yards away. Kewell had a chance to move his arm from the ball's path and had he done so, the ball would have gone into the net. No dickhead, he admitted that it may have hit his shoulder and it MAY have been a penalty... but it wasn't a red card because he didn't DELIBERATELY stop a goal. The ball hit just under the shoulder... why do you think it shooted off rapidly? It wasn't a handball or a red card, simple as that.
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Benjamin
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A penalty can not be awarded for accidental handball - if Harry accepts a penalty, he has to accept the red-card, rough as it may be.
He says it hit his shoulder, but if you watch the video it's quite clear that it hits his bicep, that his arm is away from his body, I think his fist is also clenched (which indicates a tensing of the arm).
As one of the studio experts pointed out - it's instinct when you're on the line to make your body as big as possible - that includes holding the arms away from the body rather than flat to the sides. Away from the body is a natural stance but it IS considered by referees to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger.
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Heineken
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leftrightout wrote:Well then the studs up tackle from behind on Breciano should have been a straight red too. I feel sorry for Kewell. The ref was very average. +1.
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!

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tfozz
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It seems the apologists of FIFA corruption have supporters in the press. Maybe Australia should tie their hands behind their back. I am surprised this is even a debate the ref was wrong or at worse bought to help Ghana progress.
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tfozz
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Benjamin wrote:A penalty can not be awarded for accidental handball - if Harry accepts a penalty, he has to accept the red-card, rough as it may be.
He says it hit his shoulder, but if you watch the video it's quite clear that it hits his bicep, that his arm is away from his body, I think his fist is also clenched (which indicates a tensing of the arm).
As one of the studio experts pointed out - it's instinct when you're on the line to make your body as big as possible - that includes holding the arms away from the body rather than flat to the sides. Away from the body is a natural stance but it IS considered by referees to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger. Wow! the ref could see the tensing of the arm from where he was positioned, pretty amazing. It is about time video refing is brought in, though I can see why FIFA wouldn't want it because shitty teams like Ghana will no longer win games.
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Anonanimal
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Joffa wrote:Quote: While he didn't deliberately use his arm, his movement put his arm in a position to be hit by the shot which was hit from more than seven yards away. Kewell had a chance to move his arm from the ball's path and had he done so, the ball would have gone into the net. I have watched the replay several times. Given the speed at which the ball came at Harry I don't see how the 'deliberate' element of the offence can be satisfied. He stuck his chest out but there didn't seem to be any lateral movement. The ball struck his upper arm which was by his side. I don't see any way that Harry could have avoided being struck. If there was no opportunity for him to get out of the way then it was not 'deliberate'.
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absent
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Benjamin wrote:A penalty can not be awarded for accidental handball - if Harry accepts a penalty, he has to accept the red-card, rough as it may be.
He says it hit his shoulder, but if you watch the video it's quite clear that it hits his bicep, that his arm is away from his body, I think his fist is also clenched (which indicates a tensing of the arm).
As one of the studio experts pointed out - it's instinct when you're on the line to make your body as big as possible - that includes holding the arms away from the body rather than flat to the sides. Away from the body is a natural stance but it IS considered by referees to be a deliberate attempt to make yourself bigger. I feel that it has more to do with precedents than actual black and white rule book definitions, as has been the case for as long as i can remember.. As i don't disagree with the decision given it's context, i don't think it is fair to expect the defender to suddenly have no arms? If a defender has their arms tied behind their back how are they expected to defend with mobility? The contest seriously handicaps (excuse pun) the defending team and BUT punishes the one crime twice (penalty + red card).. Now because i think you can argue that the handball was accidental, how does the punishment fit the crime? FIFA (not the refs) should clarify this point as the precedents has led the text book rule astray and the contest itself is no longer a fair one.
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Tyson_85
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leftrightout wrote:Well then the studs up tackle from behind on Breciano should have been a straight red too. I feel sorry for Kewell. The ref was very average. Amazed that this is not getting moire coverage, how the hell he didn't get red carded for that tackle is beyond me. The refs have taken a stance to crack down on fouls in this cup and we have seen cards left right and centre as a result. That was, by the standards of this cup so far, a send off offence without a shadow of a doubt.
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Denis Law
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"I think his fist is also clenched (which indicates a tensing of the arm). '
Benjamin, have you ever played football ? When a ball is coming towards you at 100 mph you tense all your muscles so you don't get hurt.
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Benjamin
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I have played football, and I've stood on the line with shots and headers coming in from close range - and on every occasion I've made myself as big as possible. I've never stood with my arms at my sides and my hands behind my back - BUT, I've always been aware that this is the only way to avoid being called for handball.  Kewell's left hand is not clenched, looking at the image again, it's possible that his right isn't clenched either, but that's not the issue - the issue is that his arm is away from his body. It's an instinctive stance to make your body as big as possible and to aid your balance should you need to move - however, the arm being away from the body opens you up to being called for handball. Everyone who has played football knows this.
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Benjamin
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Tyson_85 wrote:leftrightout wrote:Well then the studs up tackle from behind on Breciano should have been a straight red too. I feel sorry for Kewell. The ref was very average. Amazed that this is not getting moire coverage, how the hell he didn't get red carded for that tackle is beyond me. The refs have taken a stance to crack down on fouls in this cup and we have seen cards left right and centre as a result. That was, by the standards of this cup so far, a send off offence without a shadow of a doubt. Agree 100%. It doesn't affect whether the handball decision was right or wrong, but it was a very poor decision by the ref and a clear red card.
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sydneycroatia58
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leftrightout wrote:Quote:'A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored.' [-( Sorry, was not deliberate. ](*,) The second part of that ruling is key imo. The sending off arisies not from the fact the player deliberately handled the ba;; but from the unfair advantage that would have been gained for it. Look in the end it's nothing new people who have watched football for a number of years would have seen that any ref anywhere in the world would have given that as a penalty and a red card. It's been like that for years. It's unlucky for us and Harry but it's no real surprise.
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notveryclever
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Benjamin that's a very misleading angle. In other replays it is obvious his hands aren't actually that far out.
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notveryclever
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If you watch the replay carefully he even attempts to draw back his hands and chest the ball, but it's just too fast.
EDIT: On top of which the ref is not located well enough to be sure it was a handball. I know its over and buried now, but it's bullshit nonetheless. The referring in world cups has been getting shitter and shitter (anyone remember 3 yellow cards?). Bring in video referring.
Edited by notveryclever: 20/6/2010 04:10:28 PM
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phreeky
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Benjamin wrote:[quote=Tyson_85]Agree 100%. It doesn't affect whether the handball decision was right or wrong, but it was a very poor decision by the ref and a clear red card. This annoys me the most. I can accept that the handball was a red card, but for that tackle to not draw a red card is bullsh*t. Not only would it have meant 10v10, but we were controlling the match while one man down and easily could have won the game. All while being without Cahill due to an even less severe tackle. What's done is done though. What matters now is us destroying Serbia, and either Ghana beating Germany or Germany destroying Ghana.
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absent
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Sorry to stretch the Benjamin quote-a-thon but... Benjamin wrote:A penalty can not be awarded for accidental handball - if Harry accepts a penalty, he has to accept the red-card. Hang on, Accidental handballs are penalised all the time? If there is no such thing as accidental handballs then every free kick and penalty resulting from a handball MUST coincide with a booking of some colour as they must be deliberate acts and unprofessional if not accidental.. This is something we do not see. February 10, 2009: Brazil v Italy, Luca Toni fumbles the ball with his hands then on to his foot to score a goal in the opposition's penalty area, goal disallowed for handball, free kick, no bookings.
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GazGoldCoast
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The one firm conclusion to be drawn from all this debate is that, since even the experts are confused, FIFA need to explain the rule more clearly. If it's not deliberate, but it stops a goal, is it an automatic red card? This comment from worldcupblog.com suggests players could end up shooting at defenders arms in order to get a penalty + an opponent sent off: Quote:The question for me is what should players in Kewell's position actually do? The ball was shot at Kewell at a high speed from relatively close range. Until the ball hit Kewell he could not have known it would hit his chest/upper arm rather than just his chest (or head). Must players in Kewell's position dive away from the goal in these circumstances? http://www.worldcupblog.org/world-cup-2010/nemanja-vidic-handball-yellow-harry-kewell-handball-red.html#comment-584019 Edited by GazGoldCoast: 20/6/2010 04:39:57 PM
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cratra
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IMO it was a penalty but not a red card. The shot was fired from about 8 metres out (just outside the 6yrd box). I timed the shot from foot of the strike to KEWELL, with it taking 0.3 seconds to hit him. I couldn't press the stop watch fast enough it was that quick. The ball hit him on the upper biceps. No person can react that fast in 0.3 of a second. In my opinion it was not intentional and therefore not "DELIBERATE" and should not have been a red card. When you watch it the Ref could not wait to get the red card out fast enough and in his mind it was a deliberate handball. From watching it over and over it is clear that it is not and it is a indictment on his performance as a supposed world class ref. Is it an uncanny coincidence that we get 2 crucial incorrect red card decisions in 2 matches? The 2nd being a match altering one.
Edited by cratra: 20/6/2010 08:32:32 PM
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Gooner4life_8
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of course it's a penalty, he stopped the ball on the goal line, ghana should of had a goal so it's obviously a penalty, but it's certainly not deliberate either
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Dogsdogsdogs
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Harry adopted the stance most people take when attempting to chest down a ball. Watch the video not in slow mo, from the front (as seen by the ref) and you'll see just how hardn done by he was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruqYya6aeyAwatch the straight on replay at around 28 sec, no idea how the ref could have been in the position to make that call based on that angle. Edited by Dogsdogsdogs: 20/6/2010 08:34:56 PMEdited by Dogsdogsdogs: 20/6/2010 08:35:13 PMEdited by Dogsdogsdogs: 20/6/2010 08:35:36 PM
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Joffa
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[youtube]ruqYya6aeyA[/youtube]
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sydneycroatia58
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cratra wrote:IMO it was a penalty but not a red card. The shot was fired from about 8 metres out (just outside the 6yrd box). I timed the shot from foot of the strike to KEWELL, with it taking 0.3 seconds to hit him. I couldn't press the stop watch fast enough it was that quick. The ball hit him on the upper biceps. No person can react that fast in 0.3 of a second. In my opinion it was not intentional and therefore not "DELIBERATE" and should not have been a red card. When you watch it the Ref could not wait to get the red card out fast enough and in his mind it was a deliberate handball. From watching it over and over it is clear that it is not and it is a indictment on his performance as a supposed world class ref. Is it an uncanny coincidence that we get 2 crucial incorrect red card decisions in 2 matches? The 2nd being a match altering one.
Edited by cratra: 20/6/2010 08:32:32 PM You can't have the penalty but have it not be a red card. Either it's not a penalty at all or it's both. Because Kewell's arm was away from his body(and it was) the ref deemed it an unacceptable and unfair stopping of a goal being scored which it was. Wether Kewell meant it is irelevant. The fact is his arm stopped a goal being scored and it will always be a penalty and a red card.
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Dogsdogsdogs
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Joffa wrote:[youtube]ruqYya6aeyA[/youtube] yep, watch at 25-30, no way the ref could make that call with 100% conviction and certainty, which should be the requirement if you're going to end someone's world cup.
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PK75AU
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The AFL must be loving this!
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