The FFV plans to disband the VPL as the top tier competition await the FFA's review of State competitions due in March 2011. The FFV has put their plan forward to the FFA and it awaits their response.



So when the FFA Cup starts Melbourne Victory will be playing Northern Allstars and Melbourne Heart will playing North East Diamonds in the battle for the worst American 'nick name'.

Its enough to make you want to follow AFL.

Edited by Arthur: 20/11/2010 10:28:58 PM

Very interesting situation we have developing.

donlt stress Arthur - in this game its who throws the last punch that counts - not the first

Don't think this will effect the 'traditional' clubs at all.
We will compete against each other to be the best of whatever league we are allowed to play in.

fcuking bullshit. Im sure it wont go ahead though, the FFA cant lose one of its best leagues and many good clubs to some stupid FFV new franchise league.

What a great idea. Maybe many A-League supporters like myself who don't follow the State League because they can't relate to their local ethnic state league club, might at long last find a club to follow in the new competition as well. What a great idea to start with a clean slate and new clubs. I bet the new League won't have any trouble attracting media, business, television and supporter interest. Just like the A-League did. Please make it happen for the sake of the game.

you sir are an ABOMINATION !!

no chance in hell FFA will aprove of this and nor should they.

I imagine Bozza just spat up his coffee after reading this [-(

hmmm yes of course... you don't have a state league team to follow just like you didn't have an A-League team to follow like Victory - until the Heart joined the comp?

:shock: :shock:

No sir. I'm not an ABOMINATION!! I'm simply a football fan who believes a move to to start the state league with a clean slate might be the very thing the state league needs so it can attract more sponsorship and more people to its games, just like the A-League proved to be what the national league needed to attract more media coverage, more dollars and more fans to its games. But that's all too much for a SILLY KNOB like you to comprehend, I bet.

If this goes through the current vpl will become the states 2nd tier, so the best state league players will obviously play in the new comp, the standard of the vpl will drop off to about state league 1 level, state 1 to state 2 etc, for the first time ever promotion to the states top flight wont be achievable.

I think our clubs are in trouble to be honest, the only thing is i cant see our clubs giving venues to these new franchisers to play at, one way or another football in this state looks like it will be dead within 3 years one way or another, incredible when you think that the vpl 5 years ago was attracting bigger crowds than the vfl..now its being disbanded!

:lol: nobody is gonna go to games, nobody will invest in it either, yeh the ffv will promote it but nobody will care, especially in summer when the A league is already on!

i can just imagine everyone ditching a Victory game to go watch the big clash between the Northern All Stars v Central City Slickers:oops:

its gonna pain me to see my state be the laughing stock of football in this country, but in a way i'll kinda have to enjoy it as well as the ffv will take 1 massive hit.

The proposed Zone competition of the FFV will only be able to be financed one way and will be by increasing player registrations, team registration and affiliation fees.

A form of taxation without representation, and yet again the grassroots pays.

And what grounds will these new private clubs use? Are the ffv going to legislate the state leagues clubs must forfeit their community grounds and assets to a private owner?

They can't be serious with this, can they? Brand spanking new, assembly line, private, amateur clubs, straight off Big W's generic replacements shelf and replacing all existing state league clubs?

Honestly, what's the motive? Total removal of all participation in Vic. football by anyone that meets the wrong ethnic heritage requirements? Total privatisation of the sport from the grass roots level, up? What's the motive?

Why do you blokes put up with what will obviously cause the slow death of your clubs, and not break away? Our laws allow the freedom to do so and ffv, ffa and fifa could fart in the wind. Their approval isn't needed.

I can imagine the uproar if this was the attempted against the sydney state leagues clubs.

I really don't know what to make of this, except yeah maybe it ties with a wider goings on and indeed with the FFA Cup, it may actually make ALOT MORE sense IF you end up having some new Melbourne state league team facing an AU, Jets or whoever in a Cup tie, as opposed to Knights or whichever other club's 'fans' with flares and trouble, which leads to the dredging up of the bad old days of negative publicity and potentially damaging the more 'accessible' mainstream reputation this league has tried to build since the reforms.

Though yeah, on flip side, a good part of me thinks it WOULD be VERY NICE if the old NSL clubs COULD have that chance to play in the FFA Cup and so have the chance to face the A-League sides, including Victory and Sydney FC. That would be quite special, IF there was no off field trouble or whatever. A potential special occasion.

But on the latter, then again, I kind of think in my kind of 'new convert' kind of way, that why can't the Knights, South Melbourne fans and co, be ALSO Victory or Heart fans - why can't they be both? (So rendering a literal rivalry kind of non existent) But then a few will probably tell me that's a foolish proposition and that you are either one of the other, but in saying that, a few of those lot probably also proudly follow Barcelona, Arsenal or whoever, on the side, but that's ok, because they're a European club (Queue, Euro snobbery).



What an odd comment, turn of phrase to use especially one that evokes a more conflict driven nature the very thing the old NSL clubs should be trying to leave behind them (Ala flares, fights and ethnic conflicts on the news).

Good point. And where is the money going to come from? Existing VPL clubs have ties to their local business community that these proposed new clubs will struggle to get. And how much of a joke it will be that the current clubs will have infrastructure of a level well above that of these new plastic clubs.

FFV is an abomination. Fuck them off.

I know plenty of Victory fans who are also fans of VPL clubs, nothing new here. But one shouldn't be surprised that (die hard) fans of former NSL clubs haven't jumped on board Victory or Heart, after the shafting they got at the commencement of the new league.

Absolute bloody rubbish, Glory. A phrase that means they will be survive long after generic clubs have not. And for God's sake leave flares out of it. I've seen more in the last 6 years, and on television at that, than a few decades of attending nsl matches. And may I say, mainly by the fans of the other, non ethnic, generic, private Victorian club, Victory.

Stop the ridiculous and intentional fearmongering that only looks at home on Pauline Hanson and her uneducated, 'white or wrong" ilk.

Well maybe I did jump to interpret it that way (And you are somewhat right, yes, some Victory fans have done so too - but the media don't jump on it, isolate it, like the past - though don't mean to go on that tangent), but really, as I described above, these moves could well relate to the FFA Cup and wider goings on, and maybe, just maybe, as part of the reforms they are not too keen on seeing, say, a Knights or South Melbourne facing the A-League clubs especially Victory? Though IF that is the sole motivator, then this is a mighty step to take JUST for that. I'm guessing they were planning to do this for a while obviously.

Rather than it being about the State League teams playing in the FFA Cup competition...wouldn't it make more since that this is about a second tier comptition and having that comprise regionally broadbased teams?

Joffa this isn't the second tier the FFV is talking about this is the third tier, the current VPL would be disbanded and you would effectively have zone leagues (much like AFL's or crickets district leagues)SMFC playing in the Central Zone.

What others don't understand under this plan,is a club like SMFC would be asked to invest in "Central City" (the zone representative club)if it and other clubs did not invest then revenue would be sought elsewhere.
Private investment may be sought, but seriously who is going to invest in a zone club where you don't "own the players" and the FFV expects an annual licence fee of $150K.

Thats why I,m saying if the FFV is pig headed enough to push this through then they will have to self finance the teams. The FFV will have no otion but to levy Clubs and players to finance it.

Which leads me to my comment that grass roots will be expected to pay for it.

You will all get a better understanding from this;
http://www.awfa.asn.au/site/images/stories/pdfs/080523%20-%20summer%20league%20-%20explanatory%20memo%20-%20final.pdf

Edited by Arthur: 21/11/2010 05:24:09 PM

And why do the media not jump on it? Well, ask the tabloid television, like ACA or TT, what has the biggest ratings and sells the most advertising?

Ask the tabloid newspapers if some biff at anglo aussie clubs, regardless of the sports, sells newspapers and will the same biff at a perceived ethnic club, be it Marconi in soccer or the Bulldogs in NRL be pushed by the paper from a very different angle and therefore sell more?

The tabloid media and to a less extent, most of Australia's media, play on an underlying bigoted sentiment that exists in Australia and rears it's ugly head if and when given a vehicle to do so. The fault of both the media and the target bigots.

Now, other than bleaching olive, brown and black skin nice and white, ( I don't know how to achieve that) change non British sounding names by deed poll and never, ever, speak in public unless you have a nasally, slow moving accent overflowing with true blue slang, I don't know what the hell 'ethnic' people can do to prevent uneducated, classless bigots from being what they are.

Do we solve bigotry by simplistically removing the target of the bigotry so we can say it doesn't exist any more or do we tell the bigots to get the hell over their irrational complex and not make policy according to their wishes?

You guys have a go at the FFV, but who makes up the FFV? Are they people who were around pre-Crawford reforms?

And just to say, I doubt southmelb that your club will be in trouble, nor too Melbourne Knights or other higher profile Victorian league clubs. You will always have the support of your community base, as too that built on the the more positive side of your clubs' reputations. I mean many football fans around Australia have heard of your clubs thanks to the NSL days, let alone within Melbourne, so I'd hardly think you two would 'die.'



Oh well I don't disagree with the targeting of ethnic elements (to typically use 'fear' to sell) and indeed, it was never fair when the media did that. But I just recall time and time again, the only time the mainstream news media were ever interested in the NSL, was when there was conflict or trouble.

BTW I can understand the context behind the trouble, ESPECIALLY WHEN the conflicts in the old Yugoslavia were still ongoing through the 90s, including the Croatian War of Independence which only saw the Croatian National Football team formed/official recognised in '94, to then impress at Euro '96 and then make their famous run at the '98 World Cup ofcourse.

If you are trying to turn this into a go at the A-League, then that is a whole 'nother, well run, tangent. And ofcourse yes, if people are still going to insist on being unfavourable to the code and the influence of migrants on it, then they will never be favourable. But that hardly accounts for the majority ofcourse and tying in, yes the tabloid media's views hardly reflect the interests of the majority, though with poor trends in the wider media these days, that can be hard to tell.

Edited by gloryPerth: 21/11/2010 06:11:37 PM

I dont think these changes will have any benifit. The fact is that making a state league relevant to the broader community is hard in any sport.

The current structure is fine for the VPL, as it atleast has history and relevance to its communities. A clean slate, with teams that will have no meaning to anyone, in a secondary competition will struggle.

When it comes to the highest tier though nationally, it must be broadbased teams to help build an inclusive environment. Without that we will just be a target for media and competitors to rip us apart, as it will just play into every steriotype that they already think about us.

Edited by heart_fan: 21/11/2010 06:16:43 PM

If I want to turn it into a go at the aleague I'll scream it in your face and then scream it again and again. Fella, read what I write and nothing fucking more, because there isn't any. Understand?

I don't need an excuse to abhor bigotry and the way of the world means many don't need an excuse to ignore it.

Great idea. Wish it could happen here. I could support a club for Fairfield as a whole, and not feel excluded because I'm ethnically Australian (even though I've lived in Fairfield my entire life).

Fella, with an attitude like your's and your habit of shite stirring based on stirring ethnic tensions, you need a damn good hiding and sent back home to mummies tit. By fucking christ, I'm betting if you did cop a hiding for stirring, you'd scream blue bloody murder and add it to your list of reasons to hate ethnics.

Honestly, even as a 6th generation aussie of Brit and German heritage, I'd not piss on you or anyone else with that attitude, if on fire, but by christ, i'd conduct the hiding in a flash.

I am curious to know where the money will come from to fund these new 'franchise' sides.

At the moment, the funding is 'bottom up' - the clubs fund the FFV. They get nothing back from the FFV.

If this happens, I would be surprised if we didn't see all of the older clubs resign en masse and form their own competition.

Meanwhile, to all those saying they don't feel able to follow their local state league side because of ethnic issues... Really? Have you ever actually gone along - or are you just assuming that you will be lynched for being too white?

What's your definition of 'ethnically Australian', please?

Something that really irritates me about this is that it will kill the fabric of local soccer in Victoria.

What seemingly started out as a crusade to eliminate the old nsl clubs will now punish the Victorian system as a whole, how would past Victorian champions who are now playing in the lower divisions like Port Melbourne, Bulleen etc feel about this? knowing their clubs will never be able to compete at the highest level of Victorian football again, this little stunt by the ffv is threatening to wipe out a whole lot of history....history that goes beyond ex nsl clubs, i've got so many great memories of the vpl even when South was playing in the nsl, seeing the demise of nsl was a hard pill to swallow, but to see our highest tier in the state go by the way side will just about kill my interest for good, its a real shame because the vpl was a great competition back in the nsl days, it was even greater when the ex nsl clubs joined it 5 years ago (record crowds) and it still would have been great now if those selfish morons at the ffv didnt try and sabotage it.

Proud clubs, who kept the game alive when nobody else could give a f*ck... Pushed further and further away from the game.

The point I was trying make a few posts above - is that at the moment the state league clubs give far more to the FFA than the FFA gives to them. I'm not sure how 8-12 privately funded regional 'franchise' sides could actually compete financially with the traditional clubs who's income won't ultimately be effected by this restructure.

I'm very curious as to what the FFV or FFA could do if the clubs were to resign and form their own competition. The clubs income would remain unchanged, but they would no longer have to pay fees to the FFV.

The thing is - if people worry about the gap between the old and the new now, you ain't seen anything compared to what may happen if this restructure takes place.

It's a crazy idea.... will they force players to play for the district they live in, as well (like they tried to do back in the 1920's)?:lol:

If they tried this in SA, it would be quickly laughed into oblivion....

It's just dog-whistling and scaremongering. If someone truly believes tat in this day and age in Australia, then the problem is with them, not with the football club.



I'm not connected to any VPL club, and only occasionally get to a game, but can see this is a ridiculous idea and a massive assault on the traditional custodians of the game. If FFV do actively go down this path, I hope the VPL clubs do split and go their own way.

Edited by sugoibaka: 22/11/2010 11:19:09 AM

wow thats crazy

I understood the need for a HAL even though don't agree with some aspects of it BUT there is absolutely no commercial or on-field need for a brand new franchise based, regionalised/zone competition to take over from the VPL. The current clubs in the face of massive adversity from those complete FFV criminals(Dunkerly & Rendell) are doing ok, are self sufficient, have junior set-ups, have their own homes and infrastructure etc.

No where in the world are clubs treated with such complete and utter contempt by their own governing body. The FFV are proposing revolution for revolutions sake. It's insane.

2nd tiers in any sport here are for the die-hards, they are never going to be for the masses. There are plenty of clubs black/white/yellow/ugly/smelly/garlicky.... for people to choose to go and watch out in the 'burbs if they're bored on the weekend.

According to the Melb knights facebook page the draw for the new season will be done tonight so wouldn't that mean any 'disbanding' will not take place?

If I was running the FFA I would take this as an opportunity to disband the FFV and get the clubs to create a new body to represent their state.

FFV has been sticking their arm into the S-bend for this idea.

if the ffv gets its way this will be the final vpl season in its current form, they wanna bring in the new comp for the 2012 season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people

:o :-s Fine I take that back, lol, I only brought it up as we have had those kinds of well worn discussions in the past on these forums (not saying you Skeptic), so I just brought that up in case tangents went that way (A-League).

Yes, I understand but seems we don't disagree/what are we arguing about? ...



Oh sorry, that is why I read into the A-League a little, my bad, hehe. Some may interpret the A-League and it's generic clubs that way ('removing the target of bigotry'), but if you weren't then I don't quite follow your point or why you brought it up.



Hehe, take it easy, don't get your knickers in a knot, no worries Skeptic, mayyyyyttee. ;) ;) :p

For the record, yardy yarda, I'd have 'no worries' watching a local state league game and I'm aware many of the teams in Perth's league were formed by migrant communities like, Italian community Perth SC, Swan IC (Swan United now) etc... it's just I don't for reasons, as others have suggested, state leagues don't appeal as much for same reasons the state leagues of Aussie Rules (WAFL), Rugby League or whatever probably don't appeal as much either. Plus, personally, I didn't grow up playing junior football for any of those clubs, if I did, then that may be different. I suppose if I was a more hardcore/more into football fan, then I'd might, heck even work/volunteer for the club on matchdays or something. If I can just catch the odd Glory game, when I can, that is just enough for me.

Hmm IF I was in Victoria though, not sure,IF I grew up there, I'd probably know more the reality, but just moving there, then yeah, stereotypes of the Knights especially, might put me off going to one of their home games, that is again, IF I ever had the urge to go to a State League game. I think South Melbourne not so much, as I've heard and even saw in the latter NSL days how accessible they tried to make the club. Again I stereotype based on ignorance and not to say Knights these days isn't accessible either, nor other clubs or what have you and depends 'where' in Melbourne I would be living too, like Dandenong Thunder might more be an option down SE Melbourne, or Hume City up NW of Melbourne or something - Those kinds of clubs I know very little about, I'd have little worries about, though I'd probably want to find out a little first before going (But that goes for most clubs anyway, if one comes from less informed starting point). BTW Heck, Atleast I as a West Aussie, even know of these clubs, heck, even dare I tread in a thread about VPL football - lol how did I end up here (Grassroots Football section) anyway, lol.

Anyway, most of us football fans, even surely 'macktheknife' we 'truly' know that even if, yeah, some clubs have not the best reputations even as fair or more unfair some of those reputations may be (Through media and even word of mouth), we still know, or would know, of clubs we 'think' we CAN go to watch where we think we don't have to 'live in fear,' similar to 11.mvfc.11's experience, and again, that's the thing with this site - we're all the converted and we ALL know that it isn't like the snippets some of us may've caught on the news in the 90s or something, if some of us were even around then to be seeing that fear mongering rubbish. Basically most of us would be generally 'relatively' more informed about local football and even atleast vague knowledge of our state league's, even if it's just because a few of us played junior football for a club in that area or something. I suppose again, we wouldn't be unlike asking many West Coast Eagles or Dockers fans, how many of their local WAFL clubs they can name etc... And again, we might be relatively more informed about our state leagues, compared to some AFL fans and their relative state league teams etc...

BTW All respect Skeptic, as in respect that you have probably supported the NSL/Australian football it seems for longer than I have even been around perhaps (You said you've been following the sport few decades in one of your posts), so I honestly mean no disrespect.

I'm afraid you're handing out rubber cheques.
So, the descendants of a white immigrant from a foreign country have the privilege of forgoing their ethnicity, be it British Anglo Celt, Germanic Anglo Saxon ect., for a new classification, 'Ethnically Australian', but those descendants of the non anglo immigrants, many of whom also immigrated in the first 50 years of colonisation, cannot forego their ethnicity and be classified as 'ethnically Australian'? That a Brit or Germanic doesn't remain an ethnic Brit and Germanic, but the Chinese or Italian remains ethnic Chinese and Italian, is logic beyond my limited understanding.

You're posted definition the term 'ethnically Australian' is actually the definitive term for 'Anglo Australian'. In claiming an exclusivity for Anglo Australians, you've not only removed all other immigrant descendants, but also the only actual 'Ethnic Australian', Australians. And I'm afraid they aren't white fellas, as much as that might be unpalatable to your personal vision.

Great post.

I tell you what would be really funny: if Sydney Rovers were financially rescued by a 'non-white' race! I think he'd have a heart attack :oops: :oops:

Glory, my attitude has little to do with football. It's the ongoing and tiresome fear-mongering I've watched since I was a young kid. Keeping people in their place,for want of a better description. And I too fell for it till old enough to think independently of an accepted community mindset.

From the time of going to primary school with the kids of Polish refugees that had moved into the community from their initial local refugee camp, and the not to be trusted, exclusion attitude towards those 'New Australians', I never quite understood at the time why I was told to not play with those kids and the "They're just different from us!" reason given.

And as young teen, the council by-laws permitting official segregation of 'Black Fellas' from the white community, town facilities, shops and schools. Officially outlawed by governments since the early 70's, but when a town can still have a 50/50% white/Murri population and the local school has 98% Murri students, (not a guess or assumption, but actual figures)it still exists, but now subtle. The majority of the white kids bus travel to a regional centre or sent to boarding school.

From the continued 'Wog' bashing through to the 'Being overrun with Asians' years, all the way up to the 'Muslims want to take over Australia with Sharia Law' and the enhanced rhetoric of the 'Stop The Boats' in more recent times, i've heard it ad nauseum and it doesn't get any less tiresome.

You think there may be an historical trend implying a less than rational reaction towards those perceived 'different'? Personally, I know there is. As I said, it has little to do with football, other than an often displayed reminder that the above described 'attitude' will continue to be practised and denied in the one breath. By George, we have come a long way over the years, haven't we?

Edited by skeptic: 23/11/2010 12:01:13 PM

Might explain why they are thinking of a zonal style state league, may believe that the stronger state league clubs would be pressing hard to make up that second tier, also explains the FFA's reaction to the NSWPL wanting to make its own changes before the review is conducted.

If it's zonal comprised of State League Clubs, what happens in Western Sydney where Bonnyrigg, Sydney United and Marconi are all a few km's away from each other?

Who's to say they wold all be in the state league, say maybe, sydney united & marconi make the new 2nd tier mentioned in the press release, that would leave the west to be represented by other teams, hell the report may actually call for some clubs to merge, i don't know i only know as much as the press release reveals, its all guess work from then on.

There is nothing in the NCR info that suggests that a zonal system would be the model for the state leagues or in fact the 2nd tier, but i would assume that if the FFV are trying to push ahead with it, then as a stakeholder and MA they would probably raise that as their preferred system.

Then all those clubs play in the zone (you would be mor familiar with district) competition. The best players would in Summer be selected to represent the Zone team/Club which would play in the zone competition. All the clubs in the zone would have the oppurtunity to invest in ownership of the Zone Club. Any profits would be theirs.

Very interesting but why has this been all revealed only since NSWFA decided to move their premier competition to Summer?

Was this going to be in secret?

Is the FFA administration in a bunker or seige mentality? Now re-active rather than pro-active?

Well the FFV will be forwarding their Zone Competition model should be a whole lot of laughs.

Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:

The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.

There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.

lol at FFV and FNSW trying to pre-empt the evaluation when we all know the future is Queensland

Or any other lines religious for example.

Glasgow rangers and Glasgow Celtic should amalgamate and become Glasgow United and stop splitting support along religious lines.

And I'm sure we can go on and find a lot of clubs around the world that have split cities on religious, class or ethnic lines.

Marconi moves to Ctown = Macarthur Stallions
SU to be the "central west sydney" team at the expense of bankstown and melita
BWE becomes the "south west" team
Blacktown moves to CUA

Geez fellas this topic appears to have reduced to a form of ethnic background arguements.

The bottomline is Australia is one but we are many of many different backgrounds. That's what makes Australia such a fantastic and unique country. It doesn't matter what a persons background is as long they call Australia home we are ALL Australians. Brothers and Sisters standing united to make this proud country what it is today.

Put aside your petty ethnic based arguements and start thinking about "We" as in Aussie brothers and sisters that bleed green and gold from our veins. There is no "Us" or "Them" only "We".

Grow beyond what divides and think about what unites.

Whether you were taking the piss or not, i just went along with your comment.



Off topic here, but for the record, i wish the FFA would can this "greater western sydney" idea of Ian Rowden that allegedly represents the North, South and West. Blacktown, Parramatta, Fairfield etc... they should have their own clubs introduced into a national second tier. These areas each have populations similar to Townsville, Gosford & Gold Coast, and it's football heartland. Maybe in Fairfields case, there are too many teams and not enough interest to properly sustain and support them. Some consolidation would be nice (Sydney Utd, Marconi) as it leverages existing infrastructure + introduce a community owned model. Probably wishful thinking.

The Glasgow rivalry is a great one - but the beauty here is at least they have the population base to support either team.

+1 to Aussiesrus' comment.


And back on topic, i have been informed by a contact that the member clubs of the SA Super League have approached the FFSA that they want to appoint and fund a representive of their choosing to sit at the FFSA Board to operate and run the league - independent of the FFSA. They too are sick of the shit being dished out by them... so you Victorians are not alone.

Hopefully today's news about the FFA reviewing the state leage system will bring positive results. Hopefully.



Edited by redeyerob: 23/11/2010 10:58:20 PM

Wikipedia says there is only 600K in Glasgow or 1.2Mill in the greater Glasgow area and only 5Mil in Scotland. So I think its got nothing to do with Population base rather it is cultural and probably religious rivalry too.

The rivalry is without a doubt a religiously motivated one.

You've got Celtic who are Irish Roman Catholic and support the Irish Republican Army wing who hate:

•   Scots
•   Protestants
•   North Ireland Protestants
•   The British Monarchy
•   Remembrance Day
•   The US

And I think somewhere in that long list they manage to find a small amount of time to hate a football team called Glasgow Rangers ;) :lol: . Of course, it's all vice-versa too.

But what i'm implying is that there are enough Catholics and Protestants to make it work. If you threw in a 3rd club backed by a right wing, U.S. Evangelical Pentecostal, would it work?

Maybe in Arkansas?

:lol: pretty much anywhere through middle America.... but not Glasgow.

If you don't like being accused of being a duck, then don't look like a duck, act like a duck, quack like a duck, and don't keep putting your big webbed feet in your even larger billed mouth.

The problem with numbskulls like yourself is the lack of common sense, intelligence and decency to realise why people might take offence to your quacking.

My contribution to this argument... :P

I'll try to be inspirational

Take a good look at the above picture

Yep its a football

Look a little closer....guess what it's round

Look even closer - and you will see many panels stitched together and there you have it.....the finished product - a nice round football

In Australia each panel is representing a section of our football community in this country stitched together to provide the end product - a beautiful football - nice and round

By ignoring or downgrading ethnic clubs in this country is like peeling a panel off the football for each community that gets relegated and the game will never be completely rounded

FFV Plans are to strip football of its panels - to introduce a new shape and to implement an AFL System



Edited by chris: 24/11/2010 01:09:54 AM

Can't say i agree with that, the FFA can't control what FNSW goes around telling the media.

I'd say this review was waiting to be done until after the FFA charter was signed, because before that day, the states had no reason to have to abide by the reviews findings, say for example if it does find that for football development it would be best for the state leagues to play over winter, if FNSW didnt want to change back from summer then there was no way the FFA could force them too, now FNSW would be breaking its signed charter agreement, and gives some ammunition to the FFA to get things done.


The other reason i think it was anounced this week is due to the FFA doing the information gathering with the media, HAL clubs CEO's & state bodies last week, whilst it was not directly related to this perhaps certain aspects that say affected the FFA cup format were discussed and these opinions can then be forwarded to the NCR panel.

Anyway you are right ... the FFA are re-active, I just get the feeling not this time.

How were they shafted? They were simply anachronisms that didn't fit the future path. You're right in supposition that the perception of being shafted remains strong in a select few. I have no problem with this. It's unfortunate for them, but they make up the inevitable detritus that is a necessary part of change.

That said, i'd be very concerned about relegating the old clubs down the hierarchy even further. These clubs remain an elemental part of Australian football. To undercut them would be to the detriment of the grassroots and remove much of the authenticity that is painfully lacking in our game.

There must be a way that these clubs can meaningfully engage with the new order. Wouldn't mergers between some of the old clubs, or these clubs being structural investors in brand new entities be the best option? They cannot remain ethnically identified clubs in teh new order, that much is evident and anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in delusion. But they MUST be afforded the opportunity of active engagement - to openly and transparently put their cases forward as to why they should be a part of future football.

=d> =d> =d>

It's fairly obvious even to a non-NSL follower with a cursory knowledge of what happened. But that whole subject has been done to death here and elsewhere, so I don't imagine you being swayed from your stance.



They can contribute cash, facilities and infrastructure/resources developed over decades, but not actually participate without being emasculated? Yeah, right....



I'm not sure other than being financially viable and up to it in an administrative sense that they have anything they need to prove. Why do they need to be cleansed of their ethnic origins?


Edited by sugoibaka: 24/11/2010 05:42:25 PM

I don't get how people can seriously suggest some of the old NSL clubs merging with rivals. Can't imagine any club that's been around for 50+ years would let that happen.

Seriously. I don't even know where to start with this post. Your arguments are so circular, they are a phenomenon of linguistc and argumentative geometry.

Its not the origins they need to "cleanse" (your word, not mine)its their current day, here and now relevance that they need to re-adjust, and that's why I mentioned mergers and invstment in new entities. I don't care about origins, I care about what the clubs mean NOW. And what the clubs mean now, is not what's written in their constitutions, not what the directors think they mean, not what their websites claim them to be, not even what their apostolic fans want them to be - its what the communities at large perceive them to be. Like any brand their existence and meaning rest with the market.

And right now they remain an anachronism - misplaced entities out of kilter with the movement of the times. I mention things like mergers and new investments because these things give the clubs the platform to reinvigorate, to move forward, to regain amd maintain relevance outside of their closed and increasingly dwindling cohorts of fans. Its not ideal for these clubs I understand. But really, do you honestly believe that they have a choice long term?

To some, the idea of a merger to create a new, reinvigorated entity (which by nature is expansive and more more inclusive) seems abhorrent. And there in lies the problem. That the very idea of a coming together, the very idea of pluralising what is singular, can be so distasteful to some, says much about how undedicated some people really are to the growth of football in the mainstream.

Marconi United HNK :shock:

To me, that's not pluralism, it's economic rationalism. Pluralism is many different models operating in the same sphere with equal rights to existence and prosperity.

where have you been hiding?:d

Where the fuck did you rip that out from, 'Auditing Weekly'????

Football clubs around the world belong to its members and fans. They couldn't care less what others think of them. Go ask any Barca, Inter, Liverpool, Bayern fan. As if they give a shit what Real, ManU, Juve think of them.

Sporting franchisers belong to fickle customers such as your mainstream self. Enjoy.

Yep the market will decide the relevance and existence of any enterprise, even the HAL. If not for continual FFA welfare and handouts the HAL would already be dead. Hopefully the $45 million they received from the govt for the WC bid went directly towards the actual bid.

I have been on Mars for the last decade, in a cave, with my eyes shut and my fingers in my ears.

Governing body in keeping league solvent shocker.

Then why do you care if you don't support.

Love my VPL and my A-league. Pleasure to watch players like Matthew Leckie take the next step.

Why do you need a club to follow in the state league if you already support the Heart Franchise? Or are you one of those guys that need a team in every competition so it is relevant for you.

The fact remains the NSL died a painful death, which had no money and no relevance to TV broadcasters, sponsors or the broader public, which you need to have onside for growth to occur. Football is a business, which needs to grow to succeed. The HAL might not be a financial success yet, but has many more elements going for it than the NSL did, which is fundamental to comparing the position we are in today, compared to the days of Soccer Australia and the NSL.

Franchises might be a dirty word to you, but its the only relevant business set-up that could realistically work in starting up new sporting teams. It does lack history, but also comes with less baggage, which some teams unfortunately were carrying.

Truth be told, people will never be happy. Theres so many out there that want to see things fail just to strengthen their own positions, which unfortunately are those calling themselves football fans. Politics ruins the game of football worldwide and thats unlikely to change.

People can support more than 1 team you know, particularly when they are in different leagues. Do we expect to grow the local game if we all just support one team in one comp only? Thats a very myopic vision you are trying to state.

The new league will have limited success though, as there will be those left out in the process, whether its because the current structure is kept or a new model is put into place. Whichever way the FFV turn it will be the loser in one way or the other, it will just be a matter of which way has more potential to grow the game in this state.

Yeh you're right, the NSL did die a painful death but most of the clubs in it are still around with their assets, volunteers etc and will continue to do so unfortunately for you. The HAL lost more last year than what the NSL did in its entire existence. If that keeps up then it to will lose its relevance eventually. Market forces will dictate the path the HAL will go and at the moment its not really happening eh?. That's business unfortunately. How long can ANY business sustain multi million dollar losses in a competitive and crowded marketplace.

What do you expect clubs and its fans to do if they keep on being dudded, humiliatted, marginalsed etc. Just sit their and take it? What world do you live in? Disneyland?

As i said above, it has now become public:

Very interesting get RedEyeRob, I'm not sure how to respond except to say maybe the pendulum has swayed too far the other way?

Let me respond for you Arthur:

The clubs want to appoint and pay their own person to sit at the FFSA office and run the competition based on the super league and premier league club requirements.

Most clubs have been attending meetings together following much disgruntlement. And then a couple of the clubs (appointed by this consortium) have met with the FFSA board to advise them of their intentions and preferences.

Doesn't this sound extremely familiar to what's happening in the A-League, the NSW Premier League and the Victoria Premier League of late???

It's funny that the ONE thing most clubs and franchises in this country want, is also the same thing that was recommended in the Crawford report, and is also the same thing the governing bodies won't give up: CONTROL of THE LEAGUES.

Yes, the pendulum has swayed too far.

Clubs, regardless what level they play in require the following.......... and unless it is implemented in Australia - the game will never reach its potential

Ambition - Just like a player has ambition to play at an elite level - the reason he/she trains so hard day in day out in the lower leagues for hours each week - under paid (if at all) and under recourced - they keep up the work because there might be an opportunity for them that one day they will be an elite player and all their hard work will pay off

Clubs are the same - volunteers put in the building blocks - many talented and professional people put in the effort - either via boards - committees - consultancy levels because they have the same dream as these players - to what day participate at an elite level

We are not all gifted footballers - many of us have a dream to play at an elite level whether it be on a park or of it via a club we love - that is why many put in countless hours - they do not get paid for it

This proposed structure By the FFV - places a cap on clubs along the lines of "you will never ever be nothing more than a community club" - this proposal closes that dream and with it the ambition - and with it the talented people that hold these clubs in place

You cannot replace this type of football culture with money - the startegy should be to get the best out of this culure - not replace it - because you cannot replicate this level of football knowledge

The question that needs to be asked is, what is the right mix of club/FFA control? Either party having sole power is a not a good thing, and nothing will change my opinion on that.

The issue with clubs having too much control revolve around self-interest, and lack of support of the broader sport which may occur. This has happened in the past, which is one of the main reasons that the changes were made in the structure in the past decade.

The FFA/State Federations having continued sole control raises issues around independance of the comps and the ability to operate away from the deals that the FFA are locked into. Those include sponsorship limitations, which are a major issue currently for HAL clubs.

Its about finding a balance that is sustainable that has the games best interests at heart, not a few people making power plays, whether it be the FFA, State Federations or the clubs.



Edited by Heart_fan: 30/11/2010 09:10:27 PM

That's why there should be elections....open elections.....including the states and the clubs......you know....majority rules

Too early for that.

It will come, but the fact is that elections do not solve many issues, they create more, especially in football, especially if the structure/environment is not right at this time.

The structure needs to be agreed upon by stakeholders, then we can move on. Thats what the structure review will do.



Edited by Heart_fan: 30/11/2010 09:48:24 PM

I think the ffa/ffv will take a step back after losing the WC bid to be honest.

A step back, or a step down?

I wait with bated breath on the results of the NCR.

Wouldn't wait with too much interest RedEyeRob, if the results of the NCR aren't in line with Lowy's thinking, he'll do what he wants and blame old sokkah if it doesn't work out.

I think if we had won the WC bid the ffa would have felt invincible and pushed through state reform, i understand the review is coming up but the failure of not landing the WC and in humiliating fashion might serve as a warning to the ffa that the state league should not be tampered with, they wouldnt wanna tinker with a whole lot now.

We now have the first indication of what is proposed from the NCR and its just a rehash of the FFV's Zone League.

While supposedly a "Discussion Paper" its more like setting out an agenda, one with limited options.



http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=45516&p=9

1 Discussion Paper

2nd Tier Football
The Gap between A-League and Community Clubs

The Issue:

With the establishment of the successful A-League structure, the gap between the existing community club structure and the A-League/W-League has become too wide. Furthermore current community club structures are fee paying structures, with the clubs that are “perceived” to be at the top (highest level men’s leagues) able to charge the most, some in excess of $1,000 per season for talented junior players. The cost to play for talented players in this environment is a barrier to ensuring the best talented players are given the opportunity to excel.

With the strong interest in semi professional teams by a range of stakeholders, a restructure of the semi professional men’s competition, driven by FFA policy, and delivered by Member Federations can create a structure to fill this the gap between A-League and Community clubs, whilst providing the right coaching environment for the development of talented players that is delivered at no costs to the participants.

Objectives:to provide a second tiered competition platform in Australia that is consistent across member federations and can provide, if necessary, a future means for promotion and relegation to the A-League;

to provide an Australia wide consistent platform for talented young men (focus 18 to 23 yrs) to progress their careers towards a professional career in the sport to provide National Curriculum accredited clubs that increase access to football for aspiring talented participants (men, women and youth) in metropolitan and regional Australia, with a focus on the development of players, coaches, referees and volunteers to provide clearer pathways for players from junior/community club level to the Hyundai A-League/National Youth League for men, and to the W-League for women;

to remove the cost barrier and provide cost free development for Australia’s talented players from the age of 9;

to ensure FFA/Member Federation approved and accredited coaches have access to progress as a coach through talented player pathways up to senior men and women;

to provide family-friendly access to state football for a wider market of Australian football supporters and to encourage grassroots participation as a result of that engagement;

to create a vehicle upon which to take football into the media spotlight at a state level and that can attract new and long term corporate media partners to football at all levels across Australia;

to provide more and to improve existing regional/national standard facilities across Australia to the entire football community but particularly the talented players and all relevant stakeholders of the competition;

and to connect community men’s and women’s football clubs with the professional/semi professional systems in Australia by the introduction of knock out state cup system that leads to national Cup finals



2 Model for the future:

A-League model:

Use a License model similar to the A-League license and require Member Federation to replicate at their level. The non-negotiable terms of the license are:

Regionalise Clubs:

Member Federation to divide their state/territory into areas (zones) where each club is given an exclusive area to promote, develop and recruit players.

Clubs must select players from this exclusive area for junior age groups. This requirement would be less restricted at the senior level.

Governance structure:

Regional club governance structure must be community based – no single ownership models.
Directors can’t be involved with a community club.

Separation from community football:

Clubs cannot enter senior or junior teams in community winter football competitions.

New name and colours:

Clubs must have new identity that is not associated with existing club. If an existing club applies for, and is accepted, to receive a license, it must change name and colours and cease participating in winter community football competitions.

Men’s squad:

Must have certain squad requirements regarding youth development:

o Quotas on overage players (over 23)
o Minimum quotas for the level of local talent in squad, and
o No international visa players allowed (exception may be partnerships that FFA has with approved AFC national authorities)

Salary cap for men’s squad:

Use a points system, where discounts are made for local talented players recruited from the club’s exclusive recruitment area.
Link payment schedules to National Youth League payments for players under 21, maintain amateur status for U21 players.

Women’s squad:

Must include an amateur women’s team as part of the club structure with minimum quotas for local talent License fee:

Member Federation to set license fee, primarily for the promotion and marketing of the league to ensure it is presented at a higher level than current community winter leagues.

Clubs fees:

Clubs excluded from charging the talented junior participants a fee to be involved in program. Must offer programs free of charge Junior talented player:

Clubs must commit to talented player development. Must have junior team structure that are selected representative teams made up of talented players selected from the community (winter) clubs within the exclusive area. Age brackets to include:

o Skill Development Squad: 9-12 yrs boys and girls
o Boys: U13, U14, U15, U17
o Girls: U13, U15, U17


Season:

Senior men and women’s teams to mirror National Youth League season;

Alternatively;

Senior men and women’s teams only to play during winter months. This allows the best talent from the regional clubs to participate in NYL and W-League.

Season for talented junior players:

Representative teams selected from community junior clubs.

Summer: Play and train with regional club
Winter: Train as rep squad in winter, players play for their local community club (provides the connection to local community). This provides year round development.


3 National Curriculum accreditation:

Must be a National Curriculum accredited club. Maybe this can be exclusive to the regional clubs?

Coach appointment:

Regional Clubs to appoint and appropriately remunerate all coaches for all their teams. FFA to set minimum requirements, Member Federation Technical Directors to have power of veto over appointments for talented junior team coaches Coach reporting.
Coaches’ contracts to stipulate a formal reporting process to Member Federation Technical

Director and FFA Skill development coaches Facilities:

Clubs to provide a minimum standard stadia for men’s and women’s game, must include training/playing facilities for junior teams. Base the junior training/playing facility requirements on English FA Academy/Centre of Excellence requirements.

Community engagement:

Must provide plan and budget for community engagement with local clubs, councils and communities linked to delivery outcomes of National Development plan and MF development plan. – “Audited and monitored” by Member Federation game development unit on yearly bases.

Process for issuing licences:

Open tender must meet all set standards set in licence document. If existing club submits and is successful for license – must relinquish winter football position and have no ties to winter.
Must adopt new name and colours for new league. Panel of FFA/Member Federation to determine license

Connection with winter football:
All winter/community club competitions to be amateur FA CUP (Dockerty Cup in Victoria) – to be introduced across Australia with National final process to proceed after state finals are finalised.

I thought this was the FFV's proposal TO the NCR (which was sent to the current VPL clubs for discussion... well thats what they are calling it) NOT the findings or model that has been selected BY the NCR.

All State fed's will get a say not just the FFV, i honestly can't see NNSW going for this, the idea of the NCR is to create a uniform structure that is feasible for all state feds to implement, this is why i cant see the creation of these zone teams being embraced by enough of the state feds to get it across the line.

Edited by danp638: 7/12/2010 02:44:16 PM

My apologies you are correct. My statement should read as follows

Am I reading it wrong. It looks like this is setting up basically a victorian summer comp a bit similar to the NYL structure. It seems the players can keep playing for their "community" clubs no problem during the winter and there is no need to scrap the VPL. and they can just carry on regardless with the same level of players/football?




Edited by Andyroo: 9/12/2010 11:42:05 AM