Gees thats an ignorant comment decentric.

You trying to claim that millions of kids around the world are not practicing, being creative and 'learning on the street'?

The irony is i can read you and your ilk like a book.



Edited by rabid: 9/5/2011 01:08:10 PM

The point is that it is a specific technique.

One just doesn't learn it by simply playing on the street.

There are specific foot moves which create the technique.

Huh?

Does that somehow make Brenton Speed wrong?

Now, decentric, you're surely not trying to push the theory that some two bob pom (Gifford?) invented, documented and patented such dribbling techniques?

Edited by judy free: 9/5/2011 12:21:36 PM

In terms of football history I've read many books/biographies about players' careers. Johnny Warren, Mattthew Hall's Away Game, Mike Cockerill, Paul Wade, Craig Johnson, Robbie Slater, Frank Farina, Les Murray, etc , have all have written books about Australian football.

Sometimes our football media lack critical level too, similar to what David Pleatt and the guy who writes for Zonal Marking, provide. The other night, Brenton Speed described Adriano's dribbling technique nebulously as 'Brazilian magic". He would probably have argued it was a product of street football.
The technique was a specific skill taught in Brazilian Soccer Schools. In the BSS nomenclature it is described as a 'Ronaldo'. Many kids are being exposed to this dribbling technique now through BSS, and possibly Coerver.

In the print media and internet, there is almost an absence of tactical analysis, apart from Craig Foster's pieces. Occasionally Michael Lynch and Mike Cockerill cover tactics too.

To address your point about having little interest in history, I've seen movies like the one on Brian Clough's and Peter Taylor's career, which don't involve tactics or football theory either. None of them deal with tactical theory.

In a way though, you have elucidated an issue raised by Stefcep. That is, low levels of methodological understanding about football in Australia. Hopefully, that knowledge base will change.

Han Berger is pushing the game in the right direction, but receiving staunch resistance from recalcitrants and anachronists.



Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 11:43:46 AM

Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:33:14 PM

Agree that Berger has done wonders for football, Dirk.

Can you clarify the fishing analogies, please?

That's fabulous news, decentric.

I'd hate to see a string of Michael Owens being churned out by any strayan development system.

Feel free to continue to insult the intelligence of every other forum member in this thread. But I'm all done with this one.

Owen's weaknesses have been the subject for discussion in an ever evolving football world.

What I'm saying is that the ones who question Michael Owen's shortcomings and his ability to fit into the modern game, are products of an old school in Australia, devoid of the ability to analyse players accurately, through inadequate theoretical training.

Han Berger intends to train coaches/players with a much higher degree of game sense/insight.

I also don't see other coaches as rivals.

I'm not saying that personal qualities have no influence on games either.

I'm sorry but I have some bad news for you. :lol:

Keep digging, decentric.

Champagne comedy.

Edited by judy free: 8/5/2011 08:58:46 PM

So your text book coaching implementations could have made zidane a better player?

Please tell me i am not reading this correctly.

If i am reading this correctly, you have taken your idiocy to another level.

I think its both.

Maurinho's tactics were the right one for Inter's playing list when they won the ECL last year, without him they would not have won.

And this season, why can't players with the personal qualities of Ronaldo, Xavi, Benzema, Kaka, Ozil, Khedira Casillas win the ECL or La Liga. Surely these players personal qualities are good enough?

His "obsession"is relevant in the context of football development in a country which is not known for its sophisticated tactics and coaching. Those other things are important, but for us at this point in time, the tactics and coaching are more so and probably rectifiable.

Berger's approach might not make us World Champions, but at least its a systematic approach. And as Berger has alluded to, Berger has had resistance to things that he has wanted to do: eg to get more youth players playing in the A-League, a resistance to SSG's and 443 by junior-intermediate club.

But we definately need to see something this U20's World Cup to maintain faith that JVS and Berger's approaches can bear fruit at senior level in time.

Edited by stefcep: 7/5/2011 04:53:38 PM

I don't think they are immaterial to this discussion...

This thread might have originally been about Han Berger, but it was you who speculated that Michael Owen wouldn't survive in the modern game, for purely theoretical reasons connected with coaching and tactics... which was a statement which certainly invited challenge.

I think that is a cop out- you cannot analyse a player's performance solely on theoretical criteria derived from books. There are many other factors involved as well. Football is indeed a game for human beings- people- and not automatons. That's why you can't just distill the game into an abstract science- it is a game about people, and the human element is always at the forefront. At the end of the day it is players that have personal qualities that win games, regardless of whatever gobbledegook the coach is coming up with on his clipboard.

This forum has gone the way I predicted- it is a coaches' soapbox, with rivals trying to shout each other down- which I don't think is what most people really need.

What are you on about mate? Do you actually read any posts before you trot out the superfluous groupie like waffle that passes as a response? You lost all credibility with your nonsensical comments on Owen.

Read as many books as you like, attend as many seminars as you wish, and extol the virtues of your "famous contacts" as often as you wish, it simply makes you look like a desperate hanger-on wannabe.

One key element of coaching is being able to communicate a message in a clear, concise manner... Something that you have yet to do.

:)

Describe how Zinedine Zidane was implemented within the French World Cup winning team's system?

What were his shortcomings?

As his hypothetical coach, what sort of training ground plan would you use to improve his shortcomings if you can define what they were?

One Touch, note how the author of the above post will refuse to answer the question, and, how is this similar to Ljubo Milicevic?

This is relevant to this thread in that Han Berger is trying to increase the tactical/methodological awareness of Australian coaches and players.

The person the post is addressed to, is a proponent of the past coaching/training curriculum which he contends worked well in Sydney.

I read books on these thing too. They are immaterial to this discussion.

The subject of this thread was Han Berger's performance on TWG.

Common sense is a subjective concept which varies in any individual's interpretation of it.

What is perceived as common sense to Judy Free may not be common sense to Valery Lobanovski.

I once made a comment that I admired Harnwell's loyalty to Perth Glory. You seemed pleased I'd acknowledged it. That I'd observed and appreciated different phenomena to tactical and coaching theory.

I am a human being not an automaton. I enjoy the interpersonal interaction with other people at the football coal face. It is a reason I don't keep writing about match analyses and stats in the Aussie football media, as I prioritise coaching.

You may also note I'm willing to exchange coaching information on the interweb, unlike some others who see it as a competitive pursuit, and who actively discourage prospective coaches. I'm also sharing coaching methodology with a number of other coaches face to face.

I'll put these questions to you.

Have you attended any FFA two day sessions in the last few years for accredited coaches?

Did you attend the FIFA courses in Sydney for coaches?

Have you attended any Advanced (semi-professional, professional) coaching courses within the FFA framework?

Which books have you read about contemporary tactics, statistics and trends in modern football?

Have you attended any coaching coaches under European auspices/jurisdiction?

A lot of the stuff I've raised has been covered in these courses/books by Han Berger, Rob Baan, Alex Ferguson, Gerard Houllier, Sacchi, Rinus MIchaels, Valery Lobanovski, Arsene Wenger, Stefan Szymanski, Ad Derkson, Arie Schans, Jonathan Wilson, Simon Kuper, as well as one former Socceroo coach I speak to intermittently, and one current Asian team senior international coach.

If you want to believe two anonymous, recidivist trollers instead, who've done little of the above, and you are willing to stand by it, you have made a very courageous choice.

Don't worry decentric it's been pretty informative for me and for others who want to learn more about the game unlike the trolls here who just want to ruin this whole thread, keep up the good info!

Edited by Barca4life: 7/5/2011 10:48:29 AM

Congrats Decentric! Prior to this thread I thought JudyChips and RabidCrabs were just angry, negative, bitter, amti-HAL types, but you have single handedly shown them to be reasonable, calm and articulate multis with your drivel.... You could make Ljubo look like a mensa member in a debate.

Decentric, there are other dimensions to football beyond your narrow obsessions with tactical and coaching theory. There are personal, social, historical, anecdotal and just plain common sense dimensions which often explain and interpret events more adequately.

I can't believe you can't see this...

In my view U10's is the 'age' crossroads of SSG's.

It's the age where genuine talent is easily spotted, and these kids easily make the transition to 11 v 11 and benefits start to flow.

At lower levels I imagine it could prove a little more difficult.

Jesus H.

Up there with your best work, decentric.

Fucking speechless.

Yeah.... we all get old, decentric.

Berger has done wonders for football here, the only reason it wont produce a big talent pool is that Aus is using a rod and line to fish for players, whilst other countries are investing the money in factory trawlers.

When Owen was signed at Manchester United, what was his role within that squad?

Was he a starter or a bench player?

He may have had spells as a striker with a partner, but he wasn't, and and hasn't been an integral component of the team.

The other night he was a sub for almost the second team when they played Schalke.

I'm not quite sure what Han Berger has to do with all this, but Owen was cited as a player with something in common with some Australian players, almost of yesteryear, within contemporaneous football. It was within the context of evaluating current young Australian footballers.

His shortcomings are documented in evolving football tactical literature.

He is not the only player.

Edited by Decentric: 7/5/2011 11:29:04 AM

Keegan signed him when Newcastle weren't a top side appearing in the ECL.

Keegan evaluated him in a different context than as English manager when he played against international teams.

Owen's limitations are available in football evolving tactical literature. Someone else who has had access to the same sources will substantiate what I've been positing about Owen.

Edited by Decentric: 6/5/2011 05:23:38 PM

Would this have been the same kevin keegan that made Owen captain when he took over as manager at newcastle.

You idiot decentric.

keep magnifying your foolishness.

You're doing a sterling job.

You know why owen didnt go to another ecl club at the time? Your mate wenger keep you in the loop on that one?

Why did he end up at man united?

You really are a silly old fool.

You would have to ask the Newcastle management whether they were abreast of contemporary football theory at the time.

Did they sign Owen for his name rather than his playing abilities within the framework of the evolving tactics of the era?

Owen wanted to go to another ECL club.

Why didn't they want him?