What are you on about mate? Do you actually read any posts before you trot out the superfluous groupie like waffle that passes as a response? You lost all credibility with your nonsensical comments on Owen.

Read as many books as you like, attend as many seminars as you wish, and extol the virtues of your "famous contacts" as often as you wish, it simply makes you look like a desperate hanger-on wannabe.

One key element of coaching is being able to communicate a message in a clear, concise manner... Something that you have yet to do.

:)

I don't think they are immaterial to this discussion...

This thread might have originally been about Han Berger, but it was you who speculated that Michael Owen wouldn't survive in the modern game, for purely theoretical reasons connected with coaching and tactics... which was a statement which certainly invited challenge.

I think that is a cop out- you cannot analyse a player's performance solely on theoretical criteria derived from books. There are many other factors involved as well. Football is indeed a game for human beings- people- and not automatons. That's why you can't just distill the game into an abstract science- it is a game about people, and the human element is always at the forefront. At the end of the day it is players that have personal qualities that win games, regardless of whatever gobbledegook the coach is coming up with on his clipboard.

This forum has gone the way I predicted- it is a coaches' soapbox, with rivals trying to shout each other down- which I don't think is what most people really need.

His "obsession"is relevant in the context of football development in a country which is not known for its sophisticated tactics and coaching. Those other things are important, but for us at this point in time, the tactics and coaching are more so and probably rectifiable.

Berger's approach might not make us World Champions, but at least its a systematic approach. And as Berger has alluded to, Berger has had resistance to things that he has wanted to do: eg to get more youth players playing in the A-League, a resistance to SSG's and 443 by junior-intermediate club.

But we definately need to see something this U20's World Cup to maintain faith that JVS and Berger's approaches can bear fruit at senior level in time.

Edited by stefcep: 7/5/2011 04:53:38 PM

I think its both.

Maurinho's tactics were the right one for Inter's playing list when they won the ECL last year, without him they would not have won.

And this season, why can't players with the personal qualities of Ronaldo, Xavi, Benzema, Kaka, Ozil, Khedira Casillas win the ECL or La Liga. Surely these players personal qualities are good enough?

So your text book coaching implementations could have made zidane a better player?

Please tell me i am not reading this correctly.

If i am reading this correctly, you have taken your idiocy to another level.

I'm sorry but I have some bad news for you. :lol:

Keep digging, decentric.

Champagne comedy.

Edited by judy free: 8/5/2011 08:58:46 PM

What I'm saying is that the ones who question Michael Owen's shortcomings and his ability to fit into the modern game, are products of an old school in Australia, devoid of the ability to analyse players accurately, through inadequate theoretical training.

Han Berger intends to train coaches/players with a much higher degree of game sense/insight.

I also don't see other coaches as rivals.

I'm not saying that personal qualities have no influence on games either.

Owen's weaknesses have been the subject for discussion in an ever evolving football world.

That's fabulous news, decentric.

I'd hate to see a string of Michael Owens being churned out by any strayan development system.

Feel free to continue to insult the intelligence of every other forum member in this thread. But I'm all done with this one.

Agree that Berger has done wonders for football, Dirk.

Can you clarify the fishing analogies, please?

In terms of football history I've read many books/biographies about players' careers. Johnny Warren, Mattthew Hall's Away Game, Mike Cockerill, Paul Wade, Craig Johnson, Robbie Slater, Frank Farina, Les Murray, etc , have all have written books about Australian football.

Sometimes our football media lack critical level too, similar to what David Pleatt and the guy who writes for Zonal Marking, provide. The other night, Brenton Speed described Adriano's dribbling technique nebulously as 'Brazilian magic". He would probably have argued it was a product of street football.
The technique was a specific skill taught in Brazilian Soccer Schools. In the BSS nomenclature it is described as a 'Ronaldo'. Many kids are being exposed to this dribbling technique now through BSS, and possibly Coerver.

In the print media and internet, there is almost an absence of tactical analysis, apart from Craig Foster's pieces. Occasionally Michael Lynch and Mike Cockerill cover tactics too.

To address your point about having little interest in history, I've seen movies like the one on Brian Clough's and Peter Taylor's career, which don't involve tactics or football theory either. None of them deal with tactical theory.

In a way though, you have elucidated an issue raised by Stefcep. That is, low levels of methodological understanding about football in Australia. Hopefully, that knowledge base will change.

Han Berger is pushing the game in the right direction, but receiving staunch resistance from recalcitrants and anachronists.



Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 11:43:46 AM

Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:33:14 PM

Huh?

Does that somehow make Brenton Speed wrong?

Now, decentric, you're surely not trying to push the theory that some two bob pom (Gifford?) invented, documented and patented such dribbling techniques?

Edited by judy free: 9/5/2011 12:21:36 PM

The point is that it is a specific technique.

One just doesn't learn it by simply playing on the street.

There are specific foot moves which create the technique.

Gees thats an ignorant comment decentric.

You trying to claim that millions of kids around the world are not practicing, being creative and 'learning on the street'?

The irony is i can read you and your ilk like a book.



Edited by rabid: 9/5/2011 01:08:10 PM

On the contrary.

These brazalian techniques were created on the streets.



Your point?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Hang on...

ahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Ill give Decentric this, his commitment to books and attending training courses is second to none. Probably wouldnt be a bad bloke to have as backroom staff if your were head coach.

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding an did love to see his performance on match day and how he would deal with issues across the park

There seems to be a level of confusion here. Though kids can learn things on their own via trial and error, is it not more conducive to help them by teaching them? If you must rely on every top level footballer to reinvent the wheel every time then they are wasting valuable developmental potential on things they can be taught as opposed to discover. Berger appears to be trying to cause a push towards this situation, ie techniques and skills that are teachable are taught, the kids then apply these techniques in game situations where they must adapt them to the real world in order to be successful, there by reinforcing sound practices through situational discovery.

Note I am not taking sides here in the ongoing debate but looking at how Berger could be looking at changing the focus of youth player development in Australia in general.

Edited by General Ashnak: 9/5/2011 02:53:49 PM

This is a very sage post.


We need you coaching GA.

Localstar, just as you are perplexed at my passion for theory, I am also perplexed by your lack of interest in coaching football.

You are a passionate fan at live matches.

You must have been a decent footballer, having played at senior state league level.

You are a consistent visitor to football forums.

If you did a a coaching course too, you would probably be a valuable asset for young footballers. Just what Han Berger would like in the system.

Of course I can't judge you on your ability to handle kids though, although one can always seek advice on child management.

The KNVB match analysis training helps considerably for live matches.

Ultimately, I coach best with a co-coach or assistant who has had a great deal of experience.

Vast experience fused with thorough tactical training in formations and match analysis training is a potent combination.

Han Berger is not wasting money, but setting out to train many well trained coaches.

Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 03:41:11 PM

Umm, never gonna happen.

People like decentric prefer to live in that unaccountable fairyland under the guise of a "player development" coach. A land were you can crap on about text book bollox until your nose bleeds. A land where you can associate yourself with current football trends and fashions and feel as an equal to Ferguson, Jose, Pep and Arsene. A land where you can theorise from dawn to dusk but never challenged to prove anything on the park. A land where league tables are non existant. A land where you can always find some tenuous link to a player doing well and claim said player as a product of your coaching. A land where you can never ever lose.

chips brings the :lol: :lol: :lol:

What I'm now seeing is a welcome zeal by a new coaching regime in our new state branch of FFA. They are working flat out to assist Berger's implementation of the new FFA coaching programme and to educate, train and assist local coaches.

I suppose what also pleases me is that they perceive our Football For Everyone school as being part of that plan. The fundamental tenets under which FFE was conceived was in response to lackadaisical Tassie FFA branch coaching regimes of the past. Tassie FFA intend to assist us with equipment and public liability insurance.

Although essentially commercial, they are also bringing Brazilian Soccer Schools and Coerver under loose Tassie FFA jurisdiction too.

':d'





Edited by Decentric: 12/5/2011 10:13:43 PM

I've never been interested in coaching. I've done my bit as a player, and done my bit at doing the nitty gritty things that keep grass roots football going- marking out pitches, putting up nets, washing shirts, etc. Happy to be an observer and a fan now.

Coaching has always seemed a bit of a hassle to me... even when you are winning things, there is always someone, somewhere, not happy or whingeing about something. Credit to those of you who do coach, of course, but it is not for me.

Those who can do ... those who can't teach/coach. Seems accurate

Ok I've gone through the John Boltbee thread and how it explains that he has more responsibility for the "technical" reforms of the game, so does Han Berger still have a say in that or not??? Does hes role change? Does he still have a say with the implantation of the FFA ciriculum???

Excellent that you've done those menial chores, not known about by people who haven't done them. All associations, clubs, need this type of person to make things function. This is why to me, the social player enjoying football is just as important as the elite player. A number of them become referees, administrators and general helpers when they retire from the game.

A number of coaches like the development option. That is where there is no pressure on winning games, being hassled by disgruntled parents, omitting players from squads, having to try and control deviant parents at matches (my pet hate), etc.

I've never enjoyed coaching as much as I am at this point in time.


In terms of accountability/success evaluation by others, I can see why Baan and Berger have focused on the elite first. Apparently only about half of one percent of footballers across the globe, graduate to playing at a level higher than their local league.

In this state this equates to a premier league. This is analogous to a state league dichotomy - one in the north and one in the south. That figure was quoted by the last Tassie TD.
It means less than one percent will play at a higher level than the local premier leagues. This figure gets down to one out of every two or three hundred players playing at a higher level.

Those 199 or 299 players who don't make it are important.



Edited by Decentric: 10/5/2011 12:39:19 PM

The lack of accountability is right up your alley decentric as is the money making potential.

Shouldnt your daughter be a matilda by now?

Kenny Dalglish, Brian Robson, Terry Venables, John Toshack, Kevin Keegan, Ronald Koeman, Frank Rijkaard, Riuud Gullit, Marco Van Basten, and Johan Cruyff were all quality players who enjoyed success as football coaches.


Being a former top player and being a successful coach doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.