Good coaches - school teachers or former players? Simon Kuper.


Good coaches - school teachers or former players? Simon Kuper.

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krones3
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Here is a total waste of time

Quote:
SENIOR LICENCE -

Paul Lonton is running a Senior Licence at Western Spirit In ipswich on Sat 18th, Sun 19th & Sat 25th February.

Football Queensland have advised that there are still a few vacancies on this Course.

If any Coaches are interested in this Course, please register via the Football Queensland website HERE or contact Dennise at

DenniseC@footballqueensland.com.au for assistance.


I can not believe that this moron is still allowed to train coaches.




:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Edited by krones3: 18/2/2012 07:30:11 PM
Decentric
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Arsene Wenger was a fringe professional.

Sacchi was hopeless as a player.

Jose Mourinho was limited as a player.

Gerard Houllier was more of a teacher than a player.

I think Benitez had a pretty modest career too.

Guus Hiddink was a modest pro, but was a teacher.

Pim Verbeek was a pro who was forced to retire early through injury, but like Hiddink had taught.

Holger Osieck is almost exclusively a trained PE teacher who had played no professional football. He studied a FFA B Licence as an option for his PE major.
skeptic
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Decentric wrote:
skeptic wrote:
Thanks but no thanks. I've read it previously.


I'm surprised you have no comment.:)



Why, because i have teachers in the family? Perhaps living for years with one to several teachers and avoiding the constant 'shop' discussions is enough reason to avoid it.
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skeptic wrote:
Thanks but no thanks. I've read it previously.


I'm surprised you have no comment.:)


skeptic
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Thanks but no thanks. I've read it previously.
Decentric
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I refreshed this article for you, Skeptic.:)
krones3
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HoldenCaulfield wrote:
How many ex-players are any good at Football Manager? I rest my case :P

Josep Guardiola?

But all the good coaches I know have at least played football at one time or another.
HoldenCaulfield
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How many ex-players are any good at Football Manager? I rest my case :P
General Ashnak
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Judy Free wrote:
So this coaching caper is a race exclusively between ex pro players and school teachers?

FFS. :lol:

FWIW I wouldn't leave a public school teacher in charge of a small chook pen.

You must have delibetrately miss read the article. What it is discussing is coaches who have moved there as ex players and based on that alone versus those who have not played the game at a professional level whose knowledge is almost completely based off of theory.

In other words which makes the best jockey? The professional jockey or the former horse?

I have to clarify that a professional jockey in this instance could also be a former horse as this article is discusing those former horses who are relying entirely on their knowledge gained as a horse.

Edited by General Ashnak: 22/8/2011 01:20:56 PM

The thing about football - the important thing about football - is its not just about football.
- Sir Terry Pratchett in Unseen Academicals
For pro/rel in Australia across the entire pyramid, the removal of artificial impediments to the development of the game and its players.
On sabbatical Youth Coach and formerly part of The Cove FC

krones3
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In youth level if a coach has never played the game then IMO he-she should not coach.
If they have never played at any level they confuse the game with other codes ie rugby where advancement up the field or real-estate is the main aim or AFL where taking opportunities at goal results in a high goal score or a point.
Our game is of course is all about possession, flow, support and skill.

A point that is totally lost on the likes of Paul Lonton.

In saying all that we can learn a lot from the coaching methods of other codes- sports’ie the supporting runs of rugby.

Judy Free
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So this coaching caper is a race exclusively between ex pro players and school teachers?

FFS. :lol:

FWIW I wouldn't leave a public school teacher in charge of a small chook pen.
General Ashnak
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JuveJuve wrote:
General Ashnak wrote:
JuveJuve wrote:
I didn't read all of that but I got the general jist. I would contend to have both would result in the most proficient and accomplished manager. By playing at a high standard you're being coached at a higher and more professional manner. Instantly you've got a head-start on the 'students of football.' In the end, only the person that has played at a high level & participated and completed requisite course can be the most accomplished. Unfortunately for the 'students of the game' they can't possibly attain the first part of that equation.

The other side of the coin is as you have stated the players of the game not having any ability to infact impart their knowledge.


Yeah that's been well documented and i'm not sure if it's even worth discussing. It's like saying an excellent carpenter doesn't mean he's going to be an excellent project manager. Well of course not and I would have thought that goes without saying.

Not having a go at you GA by any means but there's a lot shit written on here that is just bleeding obvious.

All good mate I don't get offended all that easily ;)

The thing about football - the important thing about football - is its not just about football.
- Sir Terry Pratchett in Unseen Academicals
For pro/rel in Australia across the entire pyramid, the removal of artificial impediments to the development of the game and its players.
On sabbatical Youth Coach and formerly part of The Cove FC

JuveJuve
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General Ashnak wrote:
JuveJuve wrote:
I didn't read all of that but I got the general jist. I would contend to have both would result in the most proficient and accomplished manager. By playing at a high standard you're being coached at a higher and more professional manner. Instantly you've got a head-start on the 'students of football.' In the end, only the person that has played at a high level & participated and completed requisite course can be the most accomplished. Unfortunately for the 'students of the game' they can't possibly attain the first part of that equation.

The other side of the coin is as you have stated the players of the game not having any ability to infact impart their knowledge.


Yeah that's been well documented and i'm not sure if it's even worth discussing. It's like saying an excellent carpenter doesn't mean he's going to be an excellent project manager. Well of course not and I would have thought that goes without saying.

Not having a go at you GA by any means but there's a lot shit written on here that is just bleeding obvious.
General Ashnak
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JuveJuve wrote:
I didn't read all of that but I got the general jist. I would contend to have both would result in the most proficient and accomplished manager. By playing at a high standard you're being coached at a higher and more professional manner. Instantly you've got a head-start on the 'students of football.' In the end, only the person that has played at a high level & participated and completed requisite course can be the most accomplished. Unfortunately for the 'students of the game' they can't possibly attain the first part of that equation.

The other side of the coin is as you have stated the players of the game not having any ability to infact impart their knowledge.

The thing about football - the important thing about football - is its not just about football.
- Sir Terry Pratchett in Unseen Academicals
For pro/rel in Australia across the entire pyramid, the removal of artificial impediments to the development of the game and its players.
On sabbatical Youth Coach and formerly part of The Cove FC

JuveJuve
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I didn't read all of that but I got the general jist. I would contend to have both would result in the most proficient and accomplished manager. By playing at a high standard you're being coached at a higher and more professional manner. Instantly you've got a head-start on the 'students of football.' In the end, only the person that has played at a high level & participated and completed requisite course can be the most accomplished. Unfortunately for the 'students of the game' they can't possibly attain the first part of that equation.
Decentric
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Ex-pros or teachers: Who has the edge?
Simon Kuper
August 04, 2011

In spring 2005, Jose Mourinho's Chelsea met Frank Rijkaard's Barcelona in the Champions League. It was a bad-tempered affair. Chelsea accused Rijkaard of cheating, Barcelona fans jeered Mourinho as The Translator (his initial job during his years at the Nou Camp), and things deteriorated from there. Mourinho admitted that if you compared himself and Rijkaard as footballers, his history is fantastic, mine is zero. But as managers, added Mourinho, He has zero titles and I have a lot of them. He just can't be compared to me.


Indeed, over the two legs Mourinho outthought Rijkaard, and Chelsea knocked out Barca. After victory was sealed at Stamford Bridge, a member of Mourinho's staff, another Portuguese non-footballer, at 27 years old even younger than his boss, swaggered up to Barcelona's bench and taunted Rijkaard. The young man whose name, though hardly anyone knew it, was Andre Villas Boas ended up squabbling with Barcelona's striker Samuel Etoo.

There are two types of manager: ex-players like Rijkaard, who learned football mostly on the field, and schoolteachers like Mourinho, who learned it on coaching courses. As the Premier League approaches kickoff, the schoolteachers are on the rise. Today Villas Boas manages Chelsea. Another non-player on Mourinho's staff that night in 2005, Chelsea's then youth team coach Brendan Rodgers, now coaches newly promoted Swansea. The schoolteachers' revolution is the latest sign that the Premier League is becoming clever.

For decades, it was an article of faith that only someone who had played professional football himself knew how to manage a team. Players who had been leaders on the field were particularly favoured. When the great England captain Bryan Robson turned manager in the mid-1990s, Middlesbrough immediately handed him a fortune to spend on transfers.

Roy Keane was similarly fast-tracked, and after Glenn Hoddle got off to a good start as manager, he was appointed England manager aged only 38. Abroad, the same principle applied: the untried coaches Marco van Basten, Steve Staunton, Jรผrgen Klinsmann and Diego Maradona were put in charge of their national teams.

The idea was that there was something mystical about managing a team, something that schoolteachers and the rest of us mortals could not grasp. The great former players liked to make that point. Once in the 1980s, when Kenny Dalglish was in his first spell managing Liverpool, a journalist at a press conference questioned one of his tactical decisions. Dalglish deadpanned, in his almost impenetrable Scot's accent: Who did you play for, then?

The whole room laughed. Dalglish had come up with the killer retort: if you didn't play, you can't know.

A former chairman of a Premier League club told me that the managers he employed would often make that argument. Sometimes the chairman, a rich businessman who hadn't played would think a manager's decision looked a bit odd. But his managers (one of whom had played many times for England) would just reply that you could only understand if you had played.
The chairman never knew what to say to that. He hadn't played, so if there really was some kind of mystical knowledge you gained from playing, he wouldn't know. Usually, he'd back down.

Who did you play for then? is best understood as an old-fashioned job protection scheme. Ex-players used it to corner the market in managerial jobs. Their main rivals, of course, were the schoolteachers and anyone else who had studied anything. The typical manager had left school at sixteen to become a player. He himself had almost no education, and so, in order to protect his job, he had to argue that education was no use in understanding football.

We've seen that in the recent nerds versus jocks battle over the use of statistics in football. In the last decade or so, most Premier League clubs have acquired data departments to analyse match data - stats like tackles, sprints, or completed passes. A few managers, like Arsene Wenger and Sam Allardyce, take these stats very seriously. Most managers don't.

The data department at one big English club recently went to the club's manager and said it had analysed over 400 corners in different leagues. The conclusion: the most dangerous corner, the one most likely to produce goals, was the inswinger to the near post. The manager (a famous ex-player) listened. Then he said, I played football for many years, and I know that the most dangerous corner is the outswinger. He was arguing that his gut knew more than their brains. That was how football had always worked.

But in truth, that argument had never made sense. It seems that ex-players really don't know more about football than we do; they just played it better. Way back in 1995 the British sports economist Stefan Szymanski studied 209 managers of English clubs from 1974 to 1994. He reported: I looked at each manager's football career, first as a player (including number of games played, goals scored, position on the field, international appearances, number of clubs played for) and then as a manager (years of experience, number of clubs worked for and age while in management).
Playing history provides almost no guide, except that defenders and goalkeepers in particular do not do well (forwards are slightly more successful than average).

Dalglish was the most overachieving manager on Szymanski's list back then, edging out John Duncan, Bob Paisley and George Curtis. Dalglish was a great footballer. But so was Bobby Moore, who finished 193rd on the managers' list. Playing success had nothing to do with managerial success. As Arrigo Sacchi, a terrible player turned great manager of Milan, phrased it: You don't need to have been a horse to be a jockey.

A horse's knowledge doesn't help a jockey. Sue Bridgewater, a professor at Warwick Business School in the UK, recently published the excellent book Football Management. It contains this telling testimony from one anonymous manager: I got the job and on the first day I showed up and the secretary let me into my office, the manager's office with a phone in and I didn't know where I was supposed to start. I knew about football, I could do the on-pitch things, but I had never worked in an office and I just sat there and I waited for something to happen but no one came in so after a while I picked up the phone and rang my Mum.

Even this man's claim that I knew about football, I could do the on-pitch things is dubious. Does Rijkaard, or Diego Maradona, know more about football than Jose Mourinho, whose total experience as a player was a few minutes in Belenenses reserves? Did Keane's knack for geeing up teammates on the field translate once he had become a jockey?

True, there was a time in some bits of northern Europe when leading players doubled as managers on the pitch. In the 1970s, Johan Cruijff and Franz Beckenbauer pretty much ran their teams. They would kick players out of the team, and rewrite the lineup. It is no surprise that both later became great managers. But in British football, players were always expected just to shut up and listen to the almighty manager. That didn't prepare them for becoming managers themselves.

There is only one advantage the ex-player has when he becomes a manager: for a while, fans, media and his players give him the benefit of the doubt. Frank Rijkaard just looks like he could be a better manager than some little bloke who never even made it in Belenenses reserves. But this benefit of the doubt doesn't last long. As one ex-player-turned-manager told Bridgewater: The benefits of who I am lasted about six weeks.

At first you get some credit from players because they know that you can do the things you are asking them to do, but that soon wears off. Then you're judged on whether you can manage and if you can't then your reputation won't be enough.

In fact, there's reason to believe that ex-players are less well equipped than schoolteachers to become good managers. Asked once why failed footballers often became great coaches, Mourinho replied: More time to study. Just look at his own career. He was barely in his teens when his father, coaching a Portuguese third-division team, began sending him to write analyses of future opponents. Later, at second-division Setubal, Felix put his son in charge of the ballboys so that he could send messages to players during match. Mourinho peaked as a player in Belenenses reserves, then studied sports science at university in Lisbon. He read about the physiology, psychology and philosophy of sport in several languages, before teaching physical education in schools for three years. Villas Boas and Rodgers have taken similar career paths.

Clubs are starting to see the uses of schoolteachers. In 2007, Burnley were looking for a new manager. The club received dozens of expressions of interest from some of the most glittering names in football. They called some of these names in for interview. Often, the name would walk in, make it obvious that he knew almost nothing of Burnley's setup, and express no clear plans for improving it. Asked in the job interview for his vision, one famous former international said: Well, hopefully get promotion.

Aha, but how?

Hopefully buy some good players.None of the names bothered giving anything as nerdy as a powerpoint presentation.
Burnley didn't see anyone they liked. Eventually they were given the name of a bright young manager named Owen Coyle. He'd played football, but not very well. They called Coyle for interview. He arrived perfectly prepared. He got the job, helped Burnley win promotion, and is now with Bolton in the Premier League.

If you study this season's 20 starting Premier League managers, you see the schoolteachers' ascent. Bridgewater says that from 1992 onwards, only 5.6 per cent of managers in the Premier League had never played professionally. Normally, then, one out of 20 managers would be a non-player. This year, three are: the newcomers Villas Boas and Rodgers, plus Roy Hodgson at West Bromwich Albion. Another trend: if you are going to get hired as a British manager in the Premier League, it helps to have continental experience. That applies to three of the recent arrivals (Hodgson, Blackburn's Steve Kean, and Norwich's Paul Lambert), while Rodgers learned his trade under a Portuguese boss, speaks Spanish and is learning Italian.

Meanwhile there are few former star players among our sample of 20. Only three of this year's managers fall into that category: Dalglish, Roberto Mancini and Steve Bruce. But Dalglish and Mancini had won titles as managers long before they got their current jobs. They were hired as expert managers, not chiefly as ex-players. Only Bruce โ€“ a leader on the pitch with an indifferent career as a manager โ€“ is a throwback to the old method of choosing managers. Other former great players (Keane, Bryan Robson, Hoddle) aren't wanted by anyone. Maradona publicly begged for an English club to take him last year, but none did. Here is what Anuradha Desai, chairwoman of Blackburnโ

Indian owners Venky, said about the greatest ever player: He is not being considered, not now and forever in the future. I can assure you there is nothing we are having to do with Diego Maradona."

Rijkaard, the schoolteachers' nemesis in 2005, is now in lucrative exile in Saudi Arabia. Alan Shearer, touted for years as the coming Newcastle manager, after briefly presiding over their relegation in 2009 has stuck with TV. Tony Adams, another former leader on the field, now coaches the Azerbaijani club Gabala. They finished seventh in Azerbaijan last year. One of Adams' former teammates with England, while affirming to me what an inspirational figure Adams had been on the pitch, added that he didn't expect him to emulate that as a manager. Adams, he was suggesting, is a horse not a jockey. English clubs are finally realising that there is a difference between the two


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