Meh, been done before. Nothing remotely new about this concept.

Duplication, for what exactly?

Correct me if I'm wrong boys but Thuper is talking about something like this:

http://www.footballnsw.com.au/index.php?id=500

What, for example, dump 17 existing Sydney branch association junior rep football clubs and replace with your so-called elite academies, and I assume this vastly smaller group will play occasional friendlies v each other?

FMD, I worry about you thuper. :lol:

The way I see it, instead of the partly successful but very limiting rep programs, I'd much rather see a network of elite academies (FFA run) throughout the country, with players selected directly from the local clubs - starting from U10s and going through to U14s, with State selection not until the U15s.

Connect this network with the HAL clubs, and the odd State League club/State Federation from the U15s and up.

The way I see it, instead of the partly successful but very limiting rep programs, I'd much rather see a network of elite academies (FFA run) throughout the country, with players selected directly from the local clubs - starting from U10s and going through to U14s, with State selection not until the U15s.

Connect this network with the HAL clubs, and the odd State League club/State Federation from the U15s and up.

Also - On the point of Club vs. Federation training - The Dutch model I believe is to educate KNVB instructors who go out to clubs and work with the club coaches - I personally think this is how we should be looking to roll out the SAP here. The KNVB have 100's of coaches who rotate each club in their region each week.

Once again another first class development system that does the opposite to whats happening in Victoria. The only similar system to the FFV's player development system, I know of, are Netball, Cricket and AFL. Han Berger repeatedly rails about how we have to stop copying and employing other sporting codes development techniques. So I hope he does something about this, but I won't hold my breath.

If the FFV were able to employee 10-20 or so high quality coaches that were on rotation around the state clubs working on different topics I think it would be quite successful.

Would be absolutely brilliant currently we have 3 roving coaches who mainly run coaching courses and development squads. What your talking about forbze would be a godsend to the game. Unfortunately the FFV CEO & Board have invested far too much in the Victorian Champions League (Very original title, wonder where they got it from?) to make any changes, even for the betterment of the code.

The other problem with our system is that we have a limited number of professional clubs in each catchment area. If you look at Europe / South America etc. They have a large number of professional clubs in small geographical areas.

What does this mean?

If I'm a 15 year old boy who has excelled to a high level as a junior, and I trial with Liverpool but don't suit their playing style, then there is a large chance that I might suit the playing style of either Manchester United, City, Everton, Transmere Rovers, etc. etc. The skills of the talented child don't get lost into the ether.

At the moment if you live in Sydney and you don't match the youth coach's requirements for Sydney FC, then you have limited options.

I'm not saying the NSWPL clubs do a bad job at youth development either - I'm just saying that in other countries where you have professional clubs with youth academies down to u10's onwards, it makes a big difference.

The other problem with our system is that we have a limited number of professional clubs in each catchment area. If you look at Europe / South America etc. They have a large number of professional clubs in small geographical areas.

What does this mean?

If I'm a 15 year old boy who has excelled to a high level as a junior, and I trial with Liverpool but don't suit their playing style, then there is a large chance that I might suit the playing style of either Manchester United, City, Everton, Transmere Rovers, etc. etc. The skills of the talented child don't get lost into the ether.

At the moment if you live in Sydney and you don't match the youth coach's requirements for Sydney FC, then you have limited options.

I'm not saying the NSWPL clubs do a bad job at youth development either - I'm just saying that in other countries where you have professional clubs with youth academies down to u10's onwards, it makes a big difference.

If the FFV were able to employee 10-20 or so high quality coaches that were on rotation around the state clubs working on different topics I think it would be quite successful.

Not every player that is offered a posi at the AIS or state institutes rushes orf and signs up.

Yes have seen same myself. But they are far and few between in Victoria. While the Institutes and State rep selection identification process would be considered flawed. I refer to two current and well known examples, Jack Hingert now at Roar and Leckie. Both were never identified for VIS or AIS not even State team representation.

In fact many smart ones bypass the option and stick with club dev, which offers first grade opps to 16 and 17 year olds.

Again some do. While I would add that I consider coaches in the National and State pathways in some ways seperate from Football reality. Much like being a public servant (no offence to PS), these coaches are not subject to result based performance (on the pitch or off in terms of developing top line players) while they are detached from the cut and thrust of coaching teams in regular competition.

But lets be clesr about one thing. By age 14 the cream has already risen to the top. Ongoing dev of the cream remains the key issue going forward.

By age 14 not all players have risen to the top, thats why Relative Age Affect has become an important issue in player development lately and that why we seem to miss out on the "Late Developers". Our current system does recognise these talents at 14 and earlier with no scope at the moment for the late developers to come into the "Pathways". They are the ones who currently have to make their own way like Hingert and Leckie. But how many "Late Developers" have given up? How many "identified" 14yo never make it higher than State 2 or 3 level?

I'm saying don't seperate the cream from the milk too early. I'm saying make the cream richer and the milk full cream.

I am also saying that State Federations should change their ideas on player development and let the clubs do most of the work. The Federations and the FFA currently act as though they are the only ones who can do this and I beleive they don't have the ability to acheive developing the "match winning" player on the track they are on.

Isolating your talented juniors from the mainstream benefits no-one, but increaseing and developing the player pool is the crucial position.

Chips disagrees with you Arthur, it seems in his opinion the cream always rises and even if the overwhelimg quality of the milk is shit the cream is always fantastic.

The concepts you have raised are extremely important for improving the development of young players. The linchpin, however, for such efforts to coalesce into a leap forward will require that many more players be involved at each age level – say, for example, a 50 per club in each age bracket, rather than the current 10. There is a saying: "The cream always rises to the top." The point is that though you are concerned with finding and developing the cream for the Premier League, you must first take care, in the early ages, of raising the general level, above which the cream must rise. This can only be accomplished through providing an environment that reaches and affects more, rather than fewer, young players.

We complain about the lack of creativity in today’s youth, and blame it on the amount of time many of them spend with mind-numbing computer games. But today’s youngsters, do find creative outlets, go to your local skate park watch the kids skateboarding and BMX bike riding. The common thread appears to be an environment where they can experiment with outrageous concepts, without the constraints of adult interference.
Therefore, I would argue that an important component to any attempt to develop the “match winning” player should include a healthy dose of providing environments where young players can play with and against many teammates and opponents of different types, sizes and abilities.
The small numbers of players at each age group currently selected for State based development programs present a major roadblock to developing the type of player we hope to develop.

When players play with and against the same small group of players, they quickly see and learn the strengths and weaknesses of the limited variety of players around them, and repeatedly fall into the same roles.

The whole notion of trying to identify players too young flies in the face of what child development experts universally espouse, especially for the ages between seven and 15. There is tremendous diversity in the rates of maturation – physically, mentally and emotionally – in players of these ages. When only a few players are selected at these ages, both the chances of choosing correctly and developing a higher general level of play are dramatically limited.
Furthermore, the most likely result, even for the few selected, will be the development of solid and efficient, but not artful and creative players at the professional level. This truth has played itself out repeatedly in places like China, the old East Germany and in Australia the last 15-20 years.

The result often is that both the players selected and those not selected are harmed by this early selection process. Most players are not selected because physically they may not be as advanced as others.
It is more often the "late developers," whose muscles have grown and adapted over a longer period, who develop the sustained strength, coordination and speed required of a top-level athlete. Yet, in our quest to predict the future players, we often mistakenly focus most of our resources on the "precocious developers," who, we believe, exhibit the physical qualities of future high-level players.
The "late developers" most certainly will develop these attributes later, but with our current process they are relegated to a track where they are not being offered the opportunities to participate in the better environment with better coaching during these formative years for development. Unfortunately, their early non-selection often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Later, when they do physically mature, they may no longer be interested, or may consider themselves too far behind to catch up. Yet, they may ultimately be the very players who ultimately could be the very best.
Most of the physically precocious players who are selected early never develop into creative and artful professional players for different reasons. Their early physical development may not portend future development at the same rate. More importantly, perhaps, many of them will be on track to becoming "cookie-cutter" players, who solve problems in efficient, prescribed ways, but lack novelty, flair and artistry. There are numerous reasons for this. First, because it is their physical advancement that initially warranted attention, this is often the quality that both they and their coaches try to develop. It is natural to do so because it brings immediate success. This natural emphasis, along with the flawed perception that because of their early physical ability they are really playing at a higher level, often means that players will be encouraged to do what they naturally do best, rather than experiment with new ideas (as they did and would do in "street soccer") for fear of failure.
The concepts you have raised are extremely important for improving the development of young players. The linchpin, however, for such efforts to coalesce into a leap forward will require that many more players be involved at each age level – say, for example, a 50 per club in each age bracket, rather than the current 10. There is a saying: "The cream always rises to the top." The point is that though you are concerned with finding and developing the cream for the Premier League, you must first take care, in the early ages, of raising the general level, above which the cream must rise. This can only be accomplished through providing an environment that reaches and affects more, rather than fewer, young players.

At Football For Everyone its is partly run as an extra football outlet for players who want more football.

Essentially we provide skill acquisition and then games, but all 1v1, 3v1 rondos and mainly 4v4 or 5v5 with keepers. Players have a lot of contact with the ball. if they don't come fine. If they do great.

I totally agree but I have been saying this since it was introduced in Queensland 4 years ago.
I posted it over and over on the SBS forum and it fell on deaf / condemning ears.Just to add it is an expensive system for parents to fund.
The biggest problem I can see in Australia is a lack of games, especially in the U6’s to U11’s. Our regional development officer has put in place an after school care coaching team which is a brilliant idea but we across the country need to look at mid-week games week in week out.

Firstly success at an international level for juniors does not reflect in success at Senior International level.

Having said that I believe our pathways have too narrow a focus. To explain further in Australia we select a handfull of kids to represent their state, in futsal starting from U11 and for outfield U13, they invaribly move up the pathways generally playing year after year for their state then selected for State run Academeis from this pool players are selected for the AIS. All this based on the knowledge that you cannot tell if a 12yo or 13yo is going to "make it", yet we as a football nation make an initial selection from this age pool and place our resources into this group as they progress. As a nation we are acting as a singular Club. The Australian system is no bigger than one major or mid ranked European or South American Club.

Yet one project that was broad based focussed, V-Elite in Victoria, was dismantled replaced by a State Fedration controlled junior competition. And a broad based development system iin "Project 22" will be dismantled to be replaced by a similar system, I suppose, as Victoria's.

Yet the FFA institutes a magnificent program the Skill Acquisition Program which mirrors V-Elite and Project 22.

But of course the core issue no comes through that all over the world junior development is done by clubs. In Australia this is being taken away from them and run by the defacto football State,it won't work, it hasn't worked. As well as taking our brightest and best young coaches into the FFA coaching realm where they become glorified public servants without the day to day coaching and competitive matches week in week out their coaching skills will go backwards.






Sorry to take the liberty of posting this here, Arthur, but like Dirk I think this is a succinct and sage post about youth development in Australia. I've probably been subconsciously aware of this, but I've been too thick to see the bigger picture until seeing this post. We've had a lot of discussion off forum about this topic in the last few days.

There is fertile ground for further discussion in Performance on this topic.

What exactly is Arthur's point ?