No Krones we don't my club is Nunawading our seniors are in the fourth division in Victoria, though we have a well respected junior setup.

This is not to be confused with the group that went to France, it was by invitation and not a club as such.

Arthur
does your club have a premier league team?

Was the coach THE Tony Currie. He certainly uses a picture of him in the photo with Pele.

If so, I hope he showed the kids a few of his old skills. The Tony C with Pele was a skillful player but I always hated him as a kid as he played for Leeds. But time heals old wounds and seeing his name brought back the memory of his goal of the season, curled in from outside the box.

Generally from our own pockets, while an on-line auction assisted with some spending monies.

What I did was organised a raffle for family and friends to help fund the trip, sold some old odds and ends I had at trash & treasure and a couple of council grants.

The organiser (tonycurrie) did very well with keeping costs to a minimum.

Arthur
How did you fund this trip?

Being involved with U7's again imo the TD need to patrol the small sided games if they really want to make a difference to the quality of football in Australia.
Week in week out i see well meaning but ignorant parent coaches who probable need a little help so they do not stuff up their players for future better trained coaches.
ie last week the coach from the other team was encouraging her main player to shoot from kick off and from the side line. Whilst we won the game by a large margin her team had the ability to play better and the chances for development were lost.

It will always amaze me that when people see good or better football they do not take the opportunity to learn from it.

Oh the land that time forgot , no holds barred. I did register on here as slowcoach, but being old and forgetting passwords i cant seem to get back on as it, so created a new identity.
Have posted on Football Anarchy, but can't get into the calling someone gay or the one who uses the most expletives to win an argument kind of routine. It was from there I found a thread about Chips and Decentric, which lead me back to here. So been lurking a while. Still get my daily fix on Football news to see whats happening in Adelaide, post now and again.

Still watch Adelaide on the internet feeds when I can, especially now Jacob and Teeboy are playing. I do miss Adelaide, but not when it's freezing and rugging up in winter, unlike a good English summer where it's cold and wet but at least we have central heating lol.

Only from TWGF, and I think you may have posted on one of the forums that started after it that I was on for a while? But anyways, Adelaide is as always, excellent, self doubting, insular :D

Thanks Draupnir, just hope I can find my dictionary before Decentric starts posting.

Howdy to yourself General, how's Adelaide. do we know each other ?

I was never a member of the world game forum, but it's great you're going to be posting around here. Please, sound like a know it all whenever you want :D There are people like me around who want to learn anything and everything about this kind of stuff.

Welcome, anyhow :)

[quote=Arthur]Hi Nothingschanged,

I'm not making judgements I just trying to report on the differences I observed. The shirt numbering system, the type of tackles and use of the upper body and the corner kick positioning.
For us here it is not the norm, so when you see something different you like to take note of it. Wether you want to use it or not is upto you.

What I do put down to key differences is that;

1) it is the national sport
2) there is a critical mass of players
3) it is part of the culture
4) they have a more established coaching infrastructure and base of knowledge
5) better infrastructure, stadiums, grounds and more synthetic pitches
6) even the number of tournaments that attract teams from all over the world from which they can observe and compete against different practices and systems of play

Most of us (including myself) don't realise how isolated we are from the rest of the footballing world, so going to a footballing nation and to see whats happening for oneself is an eye opener no matter how minor the difference.

Cheers

Interesting observations Arthur, so if our junior players technical ability is similar to the French youngsters then how do we improve the 'match intensity' of youngsters?


Edited by Barca4life: 10/6/2012 11:09:27 PM

Edited by Barca4life: 10/6/2012 11:10:12 PM

Edited by Barca4life: 10/6/2012 11:11:29 PM

Hi Arthur

I wasn't having a dig at you, just trying to help put another light on it. I don't know the coach that took them to France as a person but I can sympathise with him as a coach. He'll be self analysing himself no doubt and I saw what he might perceive as digs, which possibly triggered his reaction. I thought it a bit unfair the comments he got from the others. Hopefully you can patch it up with him.

As for seeing new things, yeah I'm all for that. I approach coaching as to what I think is useful, I always come away with something I can use. Happy to help Arthur, I'll try not to sound as a know it all, I'll just give you what I've seen and experienced. Take from it what you can use, dismiss other bits if necessary, but please tell me and I can learn as well.

Can I just say having being in England then Australia and back to England, will you Aussies stop beating yourself up about your technical abilities, facilities and it's not our main sport etc. You lot have a fantastic opportunity to get things right, whereas the so called elite countries have a cumbersome job to bring about major changes. You've started with small sided games, if you control the coaching, cut out the elitist bull from the state selection and you would progress a lot quicker than you think.


You Aussies seem to be looking for a prescriptive panacea wherever possible, when you should be looking for your own style. Argentina did this in the 1920's when they decided they didn't want to play like the English they wanted their own Latin style. You guy's seem to have been saying it for the past 50 years. Lead from the bottom guys if the ones at the top aren't doing it.

Here endeth the first sermon :d

Hi Nothingschanged,

I'm not making judgements I just trying to report on the differences I observed. The shirt numbering system, the type of tackles and use of the upper body and the corner kick positioning.
For us here it is not the norm, so when you see something different you like to take note of it. Wether you want to use it or not is upto you.

What I do put down to key differences is that;

1) it is the national sport
2) there is a critical mass of players
3) it is part of the culture
4) they have a more established coaching infrastructure and base of knowledge
5) better infrastructure, stadiums, grounds and more synthetic pitches
6) even the number of tournaments that attract teams from all over the world from which they can observe and compete against different practices and systems of play

Most of us (including myself) don't realise how isolated we are from the rest of the footballing world, so going to a footballing nation and to see whats happening for oneself is an eye opener no matter how minor the difference.

Cheers

Howdy slowcoach! :)

Fair play mate, no worries.

Wasn't directed at you nothingschanged, apologies if the way I wrote it was slightly inconspicuous :)

I love reading everybody's opinions on this kind of thing :)

ERM ? Draupnir

I'm not the coach that took them to France. So please calm down and read what has been written.

I am just giving another point of view from a coach's perspective, isn't that what a forum is for. Like the guy's opinion isn't devalued because it hasn't come from one of Decentric's inner sanctum (you know know I'm teasing John).

So please read what I've wrote and point out about the kids having to win or managerial greatness, because if it's the latter Decentric would have nothing to write about :d

Calm down guys. Arthur has neither said nor done anything wrong, neither has Decentric.

Arthur simply provided insight for all of us here on how the French system is run and how they play the game - It doesn't matter if the kids lost, and I don't really think anyone has complained about that.

Instead of coming on to a forum to argue about what you think are "veiled digs" about your coaching performance, show your skills on the pitch, like players have to. Not meaning to be negative or anything, because I think it's amazing that you actually took kids over to France to play, I would've loved that as a kid, but a forum isn't the right place to show your managerial greatness.

Hi Arthur, Decentric.

I have been in the situation where we've only had 12 shirts and I have done the traditional numbering system. Thats with clubs in which I have had to take the shirts back for washing, maybe this was the case, especially in a tournament format? I'm still not convinced with the numbering thing, if you coached them well on the training pitch, to me they could have 999 on their back for all it matters.
I accept that in coaching manuals and possibly practical demonstrations they use the set norm for numbering just for ease of use, I doubt its for any other reason, but if you have any printed material on it and the reasoning, I'd be interested to see why.

As for tackling, i was just trying to put across what the coach might have thought, I have had kids come off the pitch after doing a perfectly good hard tackle and admit that it was good. Don't get me wrong when I coach, I tell them to stay on their feet etc, but when necessary a good hard challenge is needed. I have been watching the Euros and every team has done it when necessary. I do coach sessions where they not allowed to tackle and only intercept. It's all about giving the kids as many strings to their bow. Decentric may well remember I was all about giving the players knowledge and hopefully they will learn when to use it a la TIC method which I was using in my coaching 8 years ago.

I think you will find the speed of thought and gameplay of the French enabled them to "steal " the ball. In deed when we first arrived in Australia, my eldest was rather adept at using his upper body strength (U12 at the time) and it caused uproar with the locals. One lad asked my son if he had the skills to make it in England. My son replied yeah but for one problem and dumped him on his backside with a shoulder charge. It's not all about pretty football, the kids have to learn mental and physical strength too, you might not like it but it's true and please don't say it's an English thing. Clarence Seedorf was a pundit on the BBC the other night and he said that the Dutch have taken it on board because they are tired of being known as pretty footballers and want to win things.

Yeah Decentric still in Blighty, not coaching at the moment due to stuff in my personal life.

I think it is great that a team of young Australian kids can participate in a tournament like this in France..

But hope that the trip wasn't entirely about football, and that the cultural and educational aspects of visiting a foreign country weren't neglected...

A few years ago you had a UEFA B Licences and FA A Licence.

There has been a recent trend in football to consider tackling as a risky act. Forcing turnovers from full pressing and intensive squeezing and making intercepts from sound reading of play have been considered safer with no risk of conceding fouls.

The big tackle has been very popular in the Old Dart and in the Antipodes, but when one analyses players stats for the Socceroos, the spectacular tacklers concede a lot more free kicks in dangerous positions around goals.

As a club TD we've turned a couple of timid tacklers, too young for an under 15 team, into effective defenders who rarely tackle. We've worked a lot on the team's jockeying and defensive body shape at about 1 metre from opponents with the ball. This delays opponents, letting the team reconfigure team shape.

An issue we have in Melbourne too, Krones3, the restructuring of junior leagues has created unevenness in competition which many try to solve by playing up an age group. This then presents its own problems.
France has the beautiful situation of a critical mass of playing population to sort out match intensity.

The KNVB also have specific numbers for roles too.


The local FFA Skills Acquisition Program trainer also refers a lot to numbers having specific roles as well.

Welcome to the forum, significant and renowned entity, Slowcoach. Are you still residing in the Old Dart or Down Under? Good to see you here.You bring an international flavor to the forum.

A comment may have been made in defence of a long time, reasonable member of 442, being castigated from outside.

About 3 years ago I was able to attend an FFV workshop about youth development systems around the world concentrating on 6 of the best nations for youth development. It was pointed out in Argentina that before games players were given shirts that corresponded to the teams playing positions, the reasoning is that young players learn to understand playing roles and the requirements of different playing positions. This harks back to day when teams had 12 shirts and the centre forward wore no.9etc. And the one sub wore no. 12.
With the Dutch methodology I have seen the return of playing roles based on numbers again, with a slight difference the 5 is the left back for the Dutch and the 3 is the centre back, in Australia, and France too, this is the other way around.
In Australia and around the World there is a growing trend to give players a "permanent" number with their name emblazoned on the back. For me it was very interesting to see the French junior coaches give a player the no.6 and the player would play that role within the team structure, common place enough to suggest it is a coaching technique learnt from FFF.
In regards to strong tackler versus the skillful player, in this circumstance we are talking about youth development. While it was interesting to see the cultural difference in recovering the ball, we tend to go to ground attacking the feet of the opponent in search of the ball and they tend to use their upper body strength getting in close to their opponent and "stealing" the ball, in want for a better word.
At times the cultural difference or approach to recovering the ball caused some angst with differing interpretations on what was fair.

It may be a small point but it grabbed my attention and I reported it.

Edited by Arthur: 10/6/2012 09:09:18 AM

Edited by Arthur: 10/6/2012 09:17:30 AM

Firstly thanks Arthur
IMO
There is nothing that has been posted on this forum that should in anyway be taken as a personal attack on any one.

The comments and opinions are much what i would of expected.

As for game intensity
I coach 2 junior teams both are getting excellent results in my U11s age group there are 4 teams including mine that are playing good football and winning by large margins.
The problem is we will only meet each other once in a season of app 20 games.Winning 8-0 for 17 games out of 20 is not helping me or them build intensity.

Hi all

Been reading this with interest and having re read the whole topic a few times, I can see some comments made by Arthur possibly coming across as veiled digs at the coach especially If you are the said coach. Rightly or wrongly he has made his feelings known.

I thought he asked Arthur some valid points. Whats the fascination of having the right number on the back of the shirt ? I don't understand this at all. Also as a member of the defenders union, doing a good hard clean tackle is as good as scoring a goal for a defender. As for jinking round 5 defenders and having no end product, when they could have jinked round 3 and done something can be a tad disappointing for a coach.

I'm not defending the guy as I wasn't there, just trying to put a put a different slant on things.

Decentric there was no need to call him "an anonymous non-entity". He stated who he was, seems to me he is anything but anonymous and before you call me "an anonymous non-entity" I'm Slowcoach off The World Game forum. :d



And for tonycurriemonster fair play to you for taking them to France..

"You cannot acquire experience by making experiments. You cannot create experience. You must undergo it".

Albert Camus =d>

http://www.festival-armor.com/fr/lienmenu3-2.htm

All the results.

Couple of other points;

All the kids said that "they are faster than us" what was happening was their opponents were reading the play and anticipating situations before our boys. Goes to the lack of "Match Intensity" back home.

Their players were still physical maybe more so than us. We tackle and we slide in, where as the French boys will get in close use their upper body, get in front of you and the ball or just push you off.

Edited by Arthur: 10/6/2012 12:01:26 AM

The next game was against Pontivy.

Started in similar tactical and formation setup as the previous game, with the Franch playing a 4-2-1-3 against our 5-3-2.
They were a competent team missing three of their better players, we had the better of the first half, a few positional changes in the second half and they were able to go on with the win by 2-0. Once Pontivy went ahead we started losing our composure and pattern of play. Pontivy are considered a strong team they play a possesion game and their players were all comfortable on the ball.

But this was the first time that I looked at one of the French sides we played and I could say that they were not that superior to us. That our kids in Australia were upto an equal in technical and insight levels.

Against Clocher which was considered a team of lessor ability in France we won 2-1 struggling at the end after being 2-0 up. Even so they stil played a 4-3-3 but were more inclined to kick it long.
The last game was against St Pleudihen, it was a dramatic game fininshing 1-1 but again a match were our boys in comparison to the French boys were equal, though our coach being a friend with their coach said they have a lot of 98 born players.

Just to add that Landerneau destroyed the other three teams such was their abilities.

Having qualified for the knockout stage we had to play SC Air Bel Marseille, this is a team from the a poor neighbourhood most if not all being immigrants or children of immigrants. By extension I suppose I was implying they were tough and that they were, especially mentally, they went on to win the tournament with out conceding a goal.

These guys were serious and on a mission, they played a 1-1-4-4-1, a flat bacl four with a libero a strong midfield and they had the services aof three kids with exceptional pace to rely on. They didn't play a pretty game but maybe because they were close to Italy they prefered a catanaccio to a 4-3-3.

Any way as fate would have it the 2 teams that played 5 at the back met up. Watching my footage we were totally outplayed with SCABM hitting the post having shots blocked and the keeper making exceptional saves.
The Melb team went down against a late goal not before a clear cut scoring oppurtunity from 2 metres out was missed.

SCABM went on to win dealing with suspensions and red cards but these kids were mentally tough. In the final they beat EA Guingamp and in the Semi Standard de Liège so they were no slouches.
Guingamp though was the best ball playing team in the tournament with their possesion tactics.

What I learnt about French Football


1. A lot of their Youth Coaches coach for the Love of the game
2. The coaches are happy to judge themselves on how many players a picked up by the pro clubs.
3. You don't have to play for a big club or the "right" club to be identified
4. They prefer the 433 system at this level preferably a 1-4-2-1-3
5. They like the players to understand positions with the numbers on the kids backs from previous experience I know that the Argentinians do to. Where as in Australia juniors are issued with permanent numbers.
6. Their better teams like to play on the deck though their weaker teams are just as likely to boot the ball.
7. That they can be frustrated and unable to adapt to different playing systems or teams or organised defensive teams as per Melb Utd and SCAB Marsielle
8. Their Federation provides stronger community coaching support
9. At corner kicks they don't just stand in the six yard box but start fromm outside the penalty box with late runs into the box.

What I learnt about our football

1. We have the technical capacity to match it at U15 level with player for player with French Football.
2. We lack the continous match intensity that the French Juniors have- many clubs and fedration Academies will play their kids up in age catergories to recreate this intensity.
3. We lack the next level the U17 youth pro level- the U17 tournament was absolutely fantastic

Sorry its taken me so long to add more, family illness,catching at work and moving house.

Apologies about the out burst so goes a another friendship as the French say "C'est la vie", "Such is Life".

Photo from the Auray match from the local paper and below translation from the paper.


On the 21st of May we played a against a team called Guipavas just outside of Brest.

They have a fantastic little setup and ground which is due to be resurfaced with a synthetic pitch, from the little of what I saw the amount of Synthetic pitches and what we were told more were being installed could only help them develop a fast paced passing game due to the quality surfaces.

Guipavas did not use the shirt numbering system but did play some of their younger players.

We went down 0-2 within 5 minutes with our defence caught square to some great thru balls. It was a worring moment until 4 minutes later when the score was 2-2.
Our players were starting to adapt to the match intensity of the French game and dominated possesion for the rest of the first half.
Changes by the Guipavas coach in the second half saw them take control of the game and score to for 2-3 lead. We got a goal back to level and the score finished 3-3.
Our Goalkeeper is starting to have a major influence in matches with some exceptional saves the rest of the team adapting to the better technique and insight of the French kids.

After we played As Brest before the tournament as noted earlier and at this point I was concerned that we would not make the knockout stage, especially as there was so much importance on getting out of the group stage and major reason for arriving just over two weeks before the tournament.

We finally get to the tournament location in plougonvelin

http://www.letelegramme.com/tag/tournoi%20plougonvelin%20ouessant

A photo for the local paper and a link to other articles.
http://www.letelegramme.com/recherche/recherche.php?f_precherche_recherche=melbourne+United

We meet up with our escorts one for Plougonvelin and one for Ouessant, an Island off the French Coast. We head off with our younger guide 20yo Tivou who plays for the local Club Plougonvelin. His comments about French Football where interesting in that he said Clubs prefer the big athletic players even against more skillful players. While he said that he was never taught about tactics (anyway thats one persons view). The Families of a Club called Plouzane were our billeted hosts. Great Club and lovely setup. The family of I was with have a 15yo who plays and trains with Plouzane then goes to a French FF Academey once a week for extra training.

Also got to film Sporting Sul from Brazil training before the tournament with U15 & U17 Squads.

Interesting in that thir warmup is a slow rythmic jog as a group around the pitch for 10-15 minutes then a stretching routine, the 15's concentrating on a pattern of play drill while the U17's concentrated on attacking the goals from wide positions.

On the Island of Ouessant we first played FC Landerneau considered a favourite as they had four outstanding players the No. 10,9,6,5 all played in the numbered positions in a 4-2-1-3 set up. These boys had been signed up to play for Brest29, Nantes, Auxerre and Lyon and they were certainly quality players.Great first touch the 5 and 9 were very big and athletic while the 10 I think is a boy originally fro Ethiopia and a Cross Country Champion to boot.
These 4 did stand out, their technical profeciency, athletic qualities, movement off the ball and team work was very high. Their ability to play at high match intensity was outstanding.

Take into consideration that this tournament has 12min halfs.

Landerneau dominated possesion and dictated the the game with quick movement of the ball and player. Their dominate players where man marked (10,9 &6) and we played a 5-3-2. They hit the post twice and had numerous chances.
Their No.7 was constantly staging for free kicks in the second half and vocal in complaining, a clear sign of frustration, it got to the stage that the coach took him off for his behaviour.
Signs of an upset were apparent as Landerneau were becomming less organised, more individualistis and they were becomming more frustrated. Melb Utd had a 1v1 oppurtunity that was ominous.
After hitting the post again and a few more miraculous saves the unthinkable happened to Landerneau and another 1v1 oppurtunuty arose and Melb Utd were up 1-0. They panicked and lost control of their playing style and composure. They committed serious fouls upto the last minute and should have been punished with Yellow cards. At the final whistle the No.9 walked from the ground refusing to shake hands, his coach made him walk back.

I got to chat with Roland the Landerneau coach and he was quite a character, he commented
1) the number 9 was more upset about his own performance
2) this is the best group he has ever had with 4 players identified usually only 1 or 2 are
3) he coaches for free and has some sort of community coaching certificate
4) this tournament was a way for the boys to finish off their season
5) in 2012/13 he will coach the 1999 boys
6) his advice to us is get them young to train with the ball all the time develop technique even upto 15yo
7) he felt he did his job and was proud of his club for producing players that went on.