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GDeathe
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Benjamin wrote:GDeathe wrote:Benjamin wrote:The 'forced' entry of regional teams reduces opportunities for those from highly populated areas.
100 decent players in central Melbourne would be competing for the same number of places as 20 average players in Morwell. Because players will most likely have to be selected from the club's area - the 85 unlucky lads in central will end up forced to playing 3rd or 4th tier football rather than replacing the lesser players in Morwell.
One year on, those who missed last time will have a higher points value associated with them so clubs will be less likely to give them a chance (ie/ you keep the average 'known quantity' player rather than letting him go and replacing him with outside talent).
Long story short - working on 15 man squads, you're better off being the 15th best player in Morwell (pop 13,000) than the 16th best in City of Melbourne (pop 99,000). so you are against eeo and affirmative action ? I believe the best should be allowed to rise to the top - and I don't believe that the system benefits from weaker sides being guaranteed survival whilst potentially superior players/sides opportunities are barred. so you are against eeo and affirmative action
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Benjamin
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If you have 5,000 kids in one area competing for 15 places; whilst in another area you have only 500 kids competing for 15 places... Where is the equal opportunity?
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Benjamin
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clivesundies wrote:Arthur wrote:clivesundies wrote:Benjamin wrote:The 'forced' entry of regional teams reduces opportunities for those from highly populated areas.
100 decent players in central Melbourne would be competing for the same number of places as 20 average players in Morwell. Because players will most likely have to be selected from the club's area - the 85 unlucky lads in central will end up forced to playing 3rd or 4th tier football rather than replacing the lesser players in Morwell.
One year on, those who missed last time will have a higher points value associated with them so clubs will be less likely to give them a chance (ie/ you keep the average 'known quantity' player rather than letting him go and replacing him with outside talent).
Long story short - working on 15 man squads, you're better off being the 15th best player in Morwell (pop 13,000) than the 16th best in City of Melbourne (pop 99,000). The other way of looking at it is that the 85 players not selected in central melbourne are in fact the lucky ones as they get to play each other rather than travel for hours to play average players in Morwell. Who will end up the better player? Thats what my club is banking on being in the community competitions. There is probably another plus for you. Out of the 100 best central players how many will actually want to try out for the travelling teams to play the average player in country vic. Fair points - all of which simply demonstrates another example of the system not being fully thought through. I'm in favour of changes to the competition, anything which sees fewer teams condensing the talent pool is good, however - forcing the competition state wide, especially in younger age groups, is crazy.
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Glory Recruit
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Benjamin wrote:clivesundies wrote:Arthur wrote:clivesundies wrote:Benjamin wrote:The 'forced' entry of regional teams reduces opportunities for those from highly populated areas.
100 decent players in central Melbourne would be competing for the same number of places as 20 average players in Morwell. Because players will most likely have to be selected from the club's area - the 85 unlucky lads in central will end up forced to playing 3rd or 4th tier football rather than replacing the lesser players in Morwell.
One year on, those who missed last time will have a higher points value associated with them so clubs will be less likely to give them a chance (ie/ you keep the average 'known quantity' player rather than letting him go and replacing him with outside talent).
Long story short - working on 15 man squads, you're better off being the 15th best player in Morwell (pop 13,000) than the 16th best in City of Melbourne (pop 99,000). The other way of looking at it is that the 85 players not selected in central melbourne are in fact the lucky ones as they get to play each other rather than travel for hours to play average players in Morwell. Who will end up the better player? Thats what my club is banking on being in the community competitions. There is probably another plus for you. Out of the 100 best central players how many will actually want to try out for the travelling teams to play the average player in country vic. Fair points - all of which simply demonstrates another example of the system not being fully thought through. I'm in favour of changes to the competition, anything which sees fewer teams condensing the talent pool is good, however - forcing the competition state wide, especially in younger age groups, is crazy. Isnt that kind of like saying Sydney should have 8 A-league teams because a place like central coast can have one?
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Glory Recruit
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What is the Victorian champions league?
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Benjamin
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Glory Recruit wrote:Benjamin wrote:clivesundies wrote:Arthur wrote:clivesundies wrote:Benjamin wrote:The 'forced' entry of regional teams reduces opportunities for those from highly populated areas.
100 decent players in central Melbourne would be competing for the same number of places as 20 average players in Morwell. Because players will most likely have to be selected from the club's area - the 85 unlucky lads in central will end up forced to playing 3rd or 4th tier football rather than replacing the lesser players in Morwell.
One year on, those who missed last time will have a higher points value associated with them so clubs will be less likely to give them a chance (ie/ you keep the average 'known quantity' player rather than letting him go and replacing him with outside talent).
Long story short - working on 15 man squads, you're better off being the 15th best player in Morwell (pop 13,000) than the 16th best in City of Melbourne (pop 99,000). The other way of looking at it is that the 85 players not selected in central melbourne are in fact the lucky ones as they get to play each other rather than travel for hours to play average players in Morwell. Who will end up the better player? Thats what my club is banking on being in the community competitions. There is probably another plus for you. Out of the 100 best central players how many will actually want to try out for the travelling teams to play the average player in country vic. Fair points - all of which simply demonstrates another example of the system not being fully thought through. I'm in favour of changes to the competition, anything which sees fewer teams condensing the talent pool is good, however - forcing the competition state wide, especially in younger age groups, is crazy. Isnt that kind of like saying Sydney should have 8 A-league teams because a place like central coast can have one? No - the key difference being that the Mariners can recruit from anywhere whilst under the new FFV structure (as I understand it) players will have to be local. If players have freedom to travel, then the regionalisation isn't such an issue. But that isn't even the main issue - the main issue is the lack of promotion/relegation in this structure. I have no problem with more distant areas being represented, but if they aren't up to the job, allowing them to continue in the competition purely because the area needs to be represented is a backward step. Bit like saying that Norwich can't be relegated from the EPL because East Anglia needs to be represented at the elite level. Edited by Benjamin: 8/9/2012 11:41:23 AM
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Arthur
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Glory Recruit wrote:What is the Victorian champions league? More commonly known as the VCL, originally called Summer League. http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-8679-0-0-0&sID=226854Quote:The VCL is contested by teams representing the clubs/associations located within twelve geographical zones, throughout metropolitan and country Victoria. It forms the selection competition for underage Victorian teams to compete at the National Championships. It is also a terrific opportunity for young footballers to improve their skills by teaming up with the best players from their zone and competing against the best talent in their age group state-wide.
Eight of the twelve VCL zones are located in metropolitan Melbourne, namely Central City, Eastern FC, North East Diamonds, North West Wanderers, Northern Allstars, South Eastern Cougars, Southern Blue Tongues and Western Wolves, while the remaining four zones, Gippsland Knights, Loddon Mallee Lightning, Rivers FC and Wimmera South Coast Eagles are country based. Each zone can enter up to eight teams, split across both male and female categories and a range of age divisions, therefore providing plenty of opportunity for Victoria's talented young footballers to get involved and ultimately be identified. The VCL was developed in 2008, by the FFV to be played in Summer and become the State's First Tier competition. There was a Senior mens and womens component that failed to materialise and the FFV gave up any pretence of trying to make it work. It eventually became a junior competition used to select State teams. The FFV presented the Summer League proposal to the FFA as a model to be used nationally in 2010 (approx.). It motivated Buckley to review all State competitions hence the NCR. http://www.awfa.asn.au/site/images/stories/pdfs/080523%20-%20summer%20league%20-%20explanatory%20memo%20-%20final.pdfBack ground to what the proposal was all about. By reading it much of the NCR and the FFV's implementation of it has been regurgitated. Quote:Each Zone will have:
(a) an elite men’s team (with a strong focus on under 25 development);
(b) an elite women’s team; and
(c) at least 3 junior boys (Under 13s, Under 14s and Under 15s) and 3 junior
girls (Under 13s, Under 15s and Under 17s) teams which will be
representative of talented players from within that Zone in accordance with
the eligibility requirements set by FFV. FFV reserves its right to increase
or decrease the required number of junior boys and girls teams that
represent the Zone. The Ages of the teams are different but concept the same. Quote:The FFV Summer League will:
(a) provide a stepping stone in the career path of elite players, coaches and
officials;
(b) showcase the number of young, quality footballers across Victoria;
(c) enhance professionalism at club level;
(d) improve facilities for football and relevant stakeholders;
(e) improve links between clubs and local communities;
(f) strengthen the brand and image of football in Victoria; and
(g) address many of the talented player development gaps identified by the
FFA in the National Football Development Plan. Reflecting the FFA's criteria for Elite Licenced Clubs. Quote:Salary cap and Points system
34. In order to ensure competitive balance and a level playing field, Zone Teams in the
elite men’s competition will be subject to a strict salary cap and a player points
system.
35. The salary cap will restrict the total amount that can be paid to a team’s contracted
players to $185,000 per Team per annum (subject to review by FFV). The salary
cap rules shall be provided by FFV in due course, however they shall include all
payments made to players including (but not limited to) car allowances,
entertainment expenditure and superannuation. Players may earn additional
money from sources outside the Team (for example, through external sponsorship).
36. Players’ salaries will be the same as those set out in the National Youth League
Regulations for payments made to 21 and under age brackets. These payments
are:
(a) $5,000 for players 21 and under; and
(b) $2,500 for players 18 and under.
37. Each team in the elite men’s competition will also be subject to a player points cap
that restricts the total number of points that can be accrued by a team in relation to
its contracted players. Details of the player points rating system will be provided to
interested parties in due course.
However, the general structure shall be as follows:
(a) Prior to the commencement of the season, FFV will allocate each player a
points rating based on factors such as talent, experience and club of origin.
The points rating of each contracted player will be allocated to that team.
(b) Each squad shall only be entitled to a certain number of player rating
points determined by FFV in its sole discretion.
(c) Discounts will be given to players playing in their ‘local’ zone (being the
zone of the Club for which they play in the winter competition). The Player Point Sysytem developed by the FFV and adopted and refined by the FFA. Thats how the FFV have regurgitated the failed Summer League proposal and have now influenced the FFA to bring forward the same nationally. The Summer League concept was developed by a consultancy called "Sports Business Partners" http://www.sportbusiness.com.au/our-clients/sport-federations-and-clubs they list the FFA and FFV as clients. What this proposal is all about is rationalisation of football at a second tier level touching on elite junior development. If they (FFV & FFA) get it wrong we will pay for it for along time as my source claimed that Boultbee (FFA High Performance Manager) has set a target of developing players to consistently have Australia in the second round of the World Cup and this is how we in Australia will do it. The word is in Victoria there are clubs preparing to legally challenge the implementation of the NCR and I think the problem lies directly with the FFV in the manner and adadptions of the NCR that they are implementing it. Only one club so far has put their hand up to be part of it and thats South Melbourne.
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Glory Recruit
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Arthur wrote:Glory Recruit wrote:What is the Victorian champions league? More commonly known as the VCL, originally called Summer League. http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-8679-0-0-0&sID=226854Quote:The VCL is contested by teams representing the clubs/associations located within twelve geographical zones, throughout metropolitan and country Victoria. It forms the selection competition for underage Victorian teams to compete at the National Championships. It is also a terrific opportunity for young footballers to improve their skills by teaming up with the best players from their zone and competing against the best talent in their age group state-wide.
Eight of the twelve VCL zones are located in metropolitan Melbourne, namely Central City, Eastern FC, North East Diamonds, North West Wanderers, Northern Allstars, South Eastern Cougars, Southern Blue Tongues and Western Wolves, while the remaining four zones, Gippsland Knights, Loddon Mallee Lightning, Rivers FC and Wimmera South Coast Eagles are country based. Each zone can enter up to eight teams, split across both male and female categories and a range of age divisions, therefore providing plenty of opportunity for Victoria's talented young footballers to get involved and ultimately be identified. The VCL was developed in 2008, by the FFV to be played in Summer and become the State's First Tier competition. There was a Senior mens and womens component that failed to materialise and the FFV gave up any pretence of trying to make it work. It eventually became a junior competition used to select State teams. The FFV presented the Summer League proposal to the FFA as a model to be used nationally in 2010 (approx.). It motivated Buckley to review all State competitions hence the NCR. http://www.awfa.asn.au/site/images/stories/pdfs/080523%20-%20summer%20league%20-%20explanatory%20memo%20-%20final.pdfBack ground to what the proposal was all about. By reading it much of the NCR and the FFV's implementation of it has been regurgitated. Quote:Each Zone will have:
(a) an elite men’s team (with a strong focus on under 25 development);
(b) an elite women’s team; and
(c) at least 3 junior boys (Under 13s, Under 14s and Under 15s) and 3 junior
girls (Under 13s, Under 15s and Under 17s) teams which will be
representative of talented players from within that Zone in accordance with
the eligibility requirements set by FFV. FFV reserves its right to increase
or decrease the required number of junior boys and girls teams that
represent the Zone. The Ages of the teams are different but concept the same. Quote:The FFV Summer League will:
(a) provide a stepping stone in the career path of elite players, coaches and
officials;
(b) showcase the number of young, quality footballers across Victoria;
(c) enhance professionalism at club level;
(d) improve facilities for football and relevant stakeholders;
(e) improve links between clubs and local communities;
(f) strengthen the brand and image of football in Victoria; and
(g) address many of the talented player development gaps identified by the
FFA in the National Football Development Plan. Reflecting the FFA's criteria for Elite Licenced Clubs. Quote:Salary cap and Points system
34. In order to ensure competitive balance and a level playing field, Zone Teams in the
elite men’s competition will be subject to a strict salary cap and a player points
system.
35. The salary cap will restrict the total amount that can be paid to a team’s contracted
players to $185,000 per Team per annum (subject to review by FFV). The salary
cap rules shall be provided by FFV in due course, however they shall include all
payments made to players including (but not limited to) car allowances,
entertainment expenditure and superannuation. Players may earn additional
money from sources outside the Team (for example, through external sponsorship).
36. Players’ salaries will be the same as those set out in the National Youth League
Regulations for payments made to 21 and under age brackets. These payments
are:
(a) $5,000 for players 21 and under; and
(b) $2,500 for players 18 and under.
37. Each team in the elite men’s competition will also be subject to a player points cap
that restricts the total number of points that can be accrued by a team in relation to
its contracted players. Details of the player points rating system will be provided to
interested parties in due course.
However, the general structure shall be as follows:
(a) Prior to the commencement of the season, FFV will allocate each player a
points rating based on factors such as talent, experience and club of origin.
The points rating of each contracted player will be allocated to that team.
(b) Each squad shall only be entitled to a certain number of player rating
points determined by FFV in its sole discretion.
(c) Discounts will be given to players playing in their ‘local’ zone (being the
zone of the Club for which they play in the winter competition). The Player Point Sysytem developed by the FFV and adopted and refined by the FFA. Thats how the FFV have regurgitated the failed Summer League proposal and have now influenced the FFA to bring forward the same nationally. The Summer League concept was developed by a consultancy called "Sports Business Partners" http://www.sportbusiness.com.au/our-clients/sport-federations-and-clubs they list the FFA and FFV as clients. What this proposal is all about is rationalisation of football at a second tier level touching on elite junior development. If they (FFV & FFA) get it wrong we will pay for it for along time as my source claimed that Boultbee (FFA High Performance Manager) has set a target of developing players to consistently have Australia in the second round of the World Cup and this is how we in Australia will do it. The word is in Victoria there are clubs preparing to legally challenge the implementation of the NCR and I think the problem lies directly with the FFV in the manner and adadptions of the NCR that they are implementing it. Only one club so far has put their hand up to be part of it and thats South Melbourne. Thanks.
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Benjamin
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Posts: 23K,
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Arthur wrote:Only one club so far has put their hand up to be part of it and thats South Melbourne. I strongly suspect that South's support isn't total - rather that they are showing that they are willing to work with the FFV to get the structure of the competition and development of players correct.
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clivesundies
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.2K,
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Benjamin wrote:clivesundies wrote:Arthur wrote:clivesundies wrote:Benjamin wrote:The 'forced' entry of regional teams reduces opportunities for those from highly populated areas.
100 decent players in central Melbourne would be competing for the same number of places as 20 average players in Morwell. Because players will most likely have to be selected from the club's area - the 85 unlucky lads in central will end up forced to playing 3rd or 4th tier football rather than replacing the lesser players in Morwell.
One year on, those who missed last time will have a higher points value associated with them so clubs will be less likely to give them a chance (ie/ you keep the average 'known quantity' player rather than letting him go and replacing him with outside talent).
Long story short - working on 15 man squads, you're better off being the 15th best player in Morwell (pop 13,000) than the 16th best in City of Melbourne (pop 99,000). The other way of looking at it is that the 85 players not selected in central melbourne are in fact the lucky ones as they get to play each other rather than travel for hours to play average players in Morwell. Who will end up the better player? Thats what my club is banking on being in the community competitions. There is probably another plus for you. Out of the 100 best central players how many will actually want to try out for the travelling teams to play the average player in country vic. Fair points - all of which simply demonstrates another example of the system not being fully thought through. I'm in favour of changes to the competition, anything which sees fewer teams condensing the talent pool is good, however - forcing the competition state wide, especially in younger age groups, is crazy. In Qld the qsl has run in its current format for 5 years. Teams have come and gone with new ones being created all we are told so that the country players have a pathway to the a-league. Very noble indeed but destined to failure. The best young players from regional qld come to the qas in there early teens and do as well as anyone but the country teams playing in the qsl for the last 5 years have failed to produce 1 a-league player. None of this would be an issue if cairns or townsville or rockhampton were a bus trip from the south east but they are an expensive plane journey. On average the cost of travel for each team has been around $60k per season x 10 teams on average thats $600k over 5 seasons is 3 million dollars in airfares to produce nobody. When a player from one of the regional teams does get an a-league gig he will more expensive than any marquee player in a-league history. The 3 million dollars could have been put to much better use.
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Benjamin
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^^ Agree ^^
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paulbagzFC
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Although he wasn't a QSL prodigy by any means you could argue that Wayne Shroj is a regional gone A-League player (although I'm not completely sure what pathway he used to get there). -PB
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clivesundies
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Group: Forum Members
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plenty of top quality players from regional queensland and i am sure many more to come but not through spending millions we dont have flying senior players tens of thousands of ks a season.
Srhoj i believe went to ais then came to Brisbane Strikers.
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Heart_fan
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cro69 wrote:Im not a fan either, its turning senior soccer leagues into junior leagues all that will be heard at these games is crickets as no one will be going. Sad but this is the end of soccer in our country because fairies are running it. The fact is though that juniors need opportunities to develop, which often gets overlooked as journeyman take up valuable spots in the secondary tiers. The solution is not clear though, and I tend to agree that some of the suggested changes do seem to be possibly missing the mark.
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Benjamin
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I'm not against the points system to encourage the use of young players - but the penalties on player movement, and the definitions of what is a player developed by the club are too tight.
For me, if a player is U21, it shouldn't matter where he played his youth football (so long as he is an Aussie). He should be worth the minimum points level against the cap.
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