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GCU till I die
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Red_or_Dead wrote:MHFC = HAL and here to stay I remember that kind of speculative fantasy. Haven't heard Frank say that though. Problem is, it's only the TV deal that guarantees a 10 team comp, and it only requires 1 Melbourne club in that 10. The last 2 seasons should have taught you that.
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GGfortythree
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imonfourfourtwo wrote:This thread  Stomping on a intelligent discussion? Reminds me of a certain political group that conducted book burnings....
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chris
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Red_or_Dead wrote:Unless Chris is the last person to respond on this thread, this topic will never die.
Even if Benjamin or Arthur have the last comment, Chris will always have the last word...especially to keep propping this thread up on the first page.
So from here on, I will not reply and I encourage and advise all Heart (if not ALL HAL) fans to not fuel these gentlemen's unrealistic dreams and fantasies any longer. Without our involvement, then a topic about SMFC should only be discussed in the "State League Football" forum.
MHFC = HAL and here to stay
SMFC = VPL and there to stay - Deal with it.
Thread closed. If the Heart had a winning formula as they claimed during their bid then this thread would not exist
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Joffa
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chris wrote:
If the Heart had a winning formula as they claimed during their bid then this thread would not exist
Surely you don't actually believe that Chris?
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GGfortythree
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Joffa wrote:chris wrote:
If the Heart had a winning formula as they claimed during their bid then this thread would not exist
Surely you don't actually believe that Chris? Just because they don't have a "winning formula" doesn't mean that they are failing as a club.
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chris
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so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
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rusty
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Arthur wrote:I will highlight this comment for two reasons;
1. The assumption here is that Heart is not pulling crowds due to "..the clubs operations and performance.......".
So they are doing something wrong. Here in lies the commentary about Heart's "relevance" and "identity" in the current footballing landscape, as identified by Football Media Commentators and of course many forumites on 442.
So we are agreed that Heart has issues that no-one can deny.
2. So the question from Chri's point of view, as a SMFC supporter, is can SMFC do a better job? Of course he and others like myself believe the answer is yes, due to the many external factors that now dominate the game.
Now leaving these two key points I have come to the conclusion that the introduction of SMFC to the A-League with the retention of Heart of course, will increase Heart's ability to generate cashlows by having three home derbies per season.
That many A-League Clubs with NSL history will also benefit by having games against an old nemesis.
That the strength of the game right now is Melbourne, the crowds, the sponsorships, the media interest is here. This will help grow the game and SMFC is well placed in infrastructure terms, financial backing and its current brand is still strong enough to allow it into the A-League running on all cylinders.
It may also have the follow effects of;
a) improving the unity of the game
b) set an acheivable bench mark either for former traditional older clubs to make changes in an evolutionary way to also acheive A-League status if so inclined. Or set a precedent for more investment in the second tier clubs who may also be ambitious enough to seek A-League Status. It's not very convincing Arthur. Heart have issues but they cater a market of four million, whereas South have historically catered to about 3% of that. The implication may be that if Heart are struggling then South who cater to a fraction of the market Heart do may struggle more. Also by introducing South you're further segmenting the market which means less people to convert into Heart fans. Also introducing South only guarantees two home derbies for Heart, and there is no guarantee AAMI would sell out or even sell enough tickets to generate sufficient cashflows to cover their losses from other home gmaes. The arugment that A leauge clubs have history with South will beneift is a false one, Perth has a mild rivalry with South, Adelaide and Newcastle has none and NSL era rivalries between these clubs do not translate into improved crowds. At best it will have novelty but near zero commerical impact. Regarding point 2 it appears it's as much the internal club policy as much as external factors that determine club sustainability, as we have seen despite the improved conditions many clubs have struggled and some have failed, it's no easy ride for any A league club. I disagree with you that South is well placed to succeed, your brand is not popular with the Melbourne public, many do not want South or any of its alter egos in the A league, much of your revenue is taxpayer funded, your infrastructure is overstated and your stadium does not meet A league requirements in its current format, much of your fanbase has moved on and your community model is the anti-thesis of the formula we know has worked for several A league and underpinned the rapid growth of the game here.
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rusty
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chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
The Heart are building a club, identity and brand that may take years to develop but clearly the potential is there and best executed by a club that follows a structure and model similar to other successful A league clubs. The model may not work every time but is the only model that has EVER worked for football clubs in Australia.
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Benjamin
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paulc wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:Strange that none of the other moderators have seen fit to close the thread either - perhaps because no rules have been broken? Well that's a bit diffcult Ben when the moderator is South fan Perhaps if you supported another team this thread might have taken a different turn. I think you're spot on. Neither of you appear to understand that I am not the only moderator on the forum and if anything was amiss here one of the others would have closed the thread.
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rusty
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Benjamin wrote:paulc wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:Strange that none of the other moderators have seen fit to close the thread either - perhaps because no rules have been broken? Well that's a bit diffcult Ben when the moderator is South fan Perhaps if you supported another team this thread might have taken a different turn. I think you're spot on. Neither of you appear to understand that I am not the only moderator on the forum and if anything was amiss here one of the others would have closed the thread. I don't think Joffa has the spine to challenge you and I don't know who the other guy is
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Benjamin
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rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:paulc wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:Strange that none of the other moderators have seen fit to close the thread either - perhaps because no rules have been broken? Well that's a bit diffcult Ben when the moderator is South fan Perhaps if you supported another team this thread might have taken a different turn. I think you're spot on. Neither of you appear to understand that I am not the only moderator on the forum and if anything was amiss here one of the others would have closed the thread. I don't think Joffa has the spine to challenge you and I don't know who the other guy is Joffa has closed several threads on me in the past - he's never seemed to lack the spine on those occasions. As for 'the other guy' - I think there are about 6-7 mods in total, including Kev Airs. So once again, those who think I possess the power to keep a thread open when it deserves to be closed are about as far off the mark as it gets. If the rules were being broken the thread would have been closed. End of.
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rusty
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Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:paulc wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:Strange that none of the other moderators have seen fit to close the thread either - perhaps because no rules have been broken? Well that's a bit diffcult Ben when the moderator is South fan Perhaps if you supported another team this thread might have taken a different turn. I think you're spot on. Neither of you appear to understand that I am not the only moderator on the forum and if anything was amiss here one of the others would have closed the thread. I don't think Joffa has the spine to challenge you and I don't know who the other guy is Joffa has closed several threads on me in the past - he's never seemed to lack the spine on those occasions. As for 'the other guy' - I think there are about 6-7 mods in total, including Kev Airs. So once again, those who think I possess the power to keep a thread open when it deserves to be closed are about as far off the mark as it gets. If the rules were being broken the thread would have been closed. End of. Obviously there are no hard and fast rules and plenty of threads like this one have been closed in the past, you have a vested interested in this one and want to keep it open, I doubt Joffa has the balls to undercut you here. Maybe rather that wait for Joffa you can perform your admin duties yourself, this thread is just going around in circles and there's nothing new here since page 2. Chris wants the last word and so do others, hence the repition ad nauseum. This thread deserves to be put to death as its just a marketing campaign to get South back in with you as its coordinator. I don't mind it staying open but it should be moved to the state league thread where it belongs so we can continue discussing here matters pertinent to Australian football not the state leauge.
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Benjamin
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The only thing going round in circles is the desire of certain people to have the thread closed. As I've said before, if it bothers you so much - ignore it. Chris may insist on having the last word - let him, ignore him. End of problem - for you. If you can't ignore it, perhaps think about why it bothers you so much to have these issues discussed.
As for Joffa - as I've already explained, if he felt like the thread needed to be closed, he'd close it. He's closed threads I was active in before, didn't seem bothered then.
As for the co-ordinator comment - not sure how you work that. Chris started it, others have jumped in and out, I've made my points, you and Paulc have argued yours, I don't see any co-ordination - just robust and open debate. If we are to close threads just because they annoy a few members, we may as well close the lot of them.
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Benchwarmer
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This is one epic thread, almost at 100 pages. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this on 442. Such a controversial topic with lots of interested people.
For the record, I believe the FFA should be doing all it can to help make existing teams sustainable ie. not culling anyone.
As for expansion, I don't see the demand for a 3rd team in Melbourne until Heart are averaging above 15,000 a week. I don't see that happening, optimistically, for at least another 5 years. So any debate on SMFC joining anytime soon without a massive collapse of Heart or Victory is premature.
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Benjamin
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Benchwarmer wrote:This is one epic thread, almost at 100 pages. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this on 442. Such a controversial topic with lots of interested people.
For the record, I believe the FFA should be doing all it can to help make existing teams sustainable ie. not culling anyone.
As for expansion, I don't see the demand for a 3rd team in Melbourne until Heart are averaging above 15,000 a week. I don't see that happening, optimistically, for at least another 5 years. So any debate on SMFC joining anytime soon without a massive collapse of Heart or Victory is premature. Chris's initial post may have been along the lines of throw Heart out and bring South in, but the basic premise of the thread is Heart's ability to last long enough to get those good average crowds, and in the event that they don't last long enough, what other options are there to fill the gap. It would be interesting to see how hard certain people would fight Heart's corner if the suggested alternative was a new alternative rather than South.
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tbitm
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chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league.
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jlm8695
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tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Considering the fact it's not even the highest attended regular season match, I don't know how you can make a comment like that.
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tbitm
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jlm8695 wrote:tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Considering the fact it's not even the highest attended regular season match, I don't know how you can make a comment like that. The melbourne derbies currently hold the 2 highest attendances, this season and if heart didn't exist the highest attendance would probably be 36k at the first adp game and thats a simple fact. :-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-":-" Edited by tbitm: 7/2/2013 03:50:11 AM
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Red_or_Dead
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Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:paulc wrote:rusty wrote:Benjamin wrote:Strange that none of the other moderators have seen fit to close the thread either - perhaps because no rules have been broken? Well that's a bit diffcult Ben when the moderator is South fan Perhaps if you supported another team this thread might have taken a different turn. I think you're spot on. Neither of you appear to understand that I am not the only moderator on the forum and if anything was amiss here one of the others would have closed the thread. I don't think Joffa has the spine to challenge you and I don't know who the other guy is Joffa has closed several threads on me in the past - he's never seemed to lack the spine on those occasions. As for 'the other guy' - I think there are about 6-7 mods in total, including Kev Airs. So once again, those who think I possess the power to keep a thread open when it deserves to be closed are about as far off the mark as it gets. If the rules were being broken the thread would have been closed. End of. So, just so I'm aware of some of the rules on this forum can words like 'traitor', 'whore', 'prostitute' and 'get fucked' be used in a 'healthy debate' against other forumites? CRIMINAL wrote:Red_or_Dead wrote:CRIMINAL wrote:Red_or_Dead wrote:I can see why the FFA elected a club 'off the shelf', a 'catch-all' if you like - it's the same reason all NSL clubs had to remove any ethnic branding from their names/logos - to remove mono-ethnic backed clubs from the mainstream competition.
I sat in the Bob Jane's grandstand when SMFC played Preston and saw the ugliness and violence when you have two ethnic backed clubs go head-to-head. It took at least 6 cops on horses to get in between the two supporter-groups and stop them from killing each-other and even then, they just threw flares, smoke bombs and bottles over the cops. Just like Preston who brought a big "Makedonia" sign and a Greek flag in red & yellow colours, my feeling is if Heart gets replaced with SMFC in the A-League, you'll see supporters bringing Greek flags to the games and that will not be healthy for the A-League, FFA or football in this country! You are a fuckin tool. Bandwagoner at its best you are. PROTHOTI Haha!! And THAT is EXACTLY why SMFC will not be in the A-league for at least another generation! #-o For the non-Greeks, "PROTHOTI" = "TRAITOR"! Fucking oath you are. How can you barrack for a team all your life and because they get fucked by the so called hierarchy you abandon them and start barracking for a team that didn't exist yesterday. YOU my friend are a poutana. Because only a prostitute will go where there is only glamour and spotlights,when the going gets tough they jump on another bandwagon. A true supporter supports his team through thick and thin no matter the consequences. A traitor abandons his team and jumps the bandwagon. Gamisou Just checking what the rules are and when they apply - as a mod I'm sure you could tell me - or does it not count in cases like this when it's from your fellow SMFC fans?
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sugoibaka
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tbitm wrote:The melbourne derbies currently hold the 2 highest attendances, this season and if heart didn't exist the highest attendance would probably be 36k at the first adp game and thats a simple fact. Any Melbourne derby would pull that crowd, be it MV v Heart or MV v [other franchise]. Notice the common factor in each?
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Arthur
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tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. In season two I remeber being part of a crowd of over 42000 for a match against Sydney. Where has the other thousand people gone? If they where growing the game wouldn't the attendance be 50,000 and not just reliant on Victory supporters rolling up in numbers?
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GGfortythree
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Arthur wrote:tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. In season two I remeber being part of a crowd of over 42000 for a match against Sydney. Where has the other thousand people gone? If they where growing the game wouldn't the attendance be 50,000 and not just reliant on Victory supporters rolling up in numbers? That was during the ridiculous wave of success that MV gto in s2 (average of over 30k for etihad games)
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krisskrash
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To be perfectly honest to a neutral observer Victory vs Sydney means so much more then the "derby" due to the rivalry between the two cities stemming back to the early days of this country.
If Heart keep doing not much each year the derby is going to mean less and less. Bit like Juventus vs Torino, it's still a big game both it nowhere near compares with the Derby D'Italia (Juventus vs Inter).
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tbitm
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sugoibaka wrote:tbitm wrote:The melbourne derbies currently hold the 2 highest attendances, this season and if heart didn't exist the highest attendance would probably be 36k at the first adp game and thats a simple fact. Any Melbourne derby would pull that crowd, be it MV v Heart or MV v [other franchise]. Notice the common factor in each? It takes time to reach the 41k. The first game at etihad got 32k. As the "plastic" rivalry turned into a real rivalry it shot up to 42k and 41k. There is no evidence that any other team took over heart to become SXFC that the rivalry would reach where it is today straight away. See the "LA Derby" in the MLS. Those games don't even sellout th 27k stadium because no rivalry grew just because another team was put in town Edited by tbitm: 7/2/2013 12:30:38 PM
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chris
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Arthur wrote:tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. In season two I remeber being part of a crowd of over 42000 for a match against Sydney. Where has the other thousand people gone? If they where growing the game wouldn't the attendance be 50,000 and not just reliant on Victory supporters rolling up in numbers? Exactly Melb victory fans are the ones coming out- it displeases me when MH fans claim to be in the Forrest yet can't grow out in the open Melbourne should have 3 teams atleast - yet the MH have capped the number to 2 because they are not growing - even more frustrating is that they seem not to care and are happy to consolidate into a minnow and survive off the hand outs from hard work and ambitions of other teams I disagree with the statement that Melbourne Heart need to average 15k fans to consider having a 3rd team due to the pace of their development In Melbourne we now have 2 x 20/20 BBL teams and within 6 months have overtaken the Heart - left the Heart behind them and can barely see them in the rear view mirror MH are under developed and operating at a snails pace - do we now stun the growth of the game and cancel out any opportunity for expansion until that mob decide to pull their finger out of their ass??? with the amount of coverage the game has these days and cross segment reach - a team in melbourne and sydney should have a baseline of 12k at every match regardless of the fixture - even if they were last on the ladder - no excuses crowds of 4-5 and 6k in Melbourne is a joke and thins the HAL as a brand and as a proposal to the market - these are basketball crowds If south even in the VPL played in summer and without marketing hype would get 3-4k Like I said - happy to be the 3rd team - but not in 15 years time waiting for MH to get their shit organised The whole purpose of a bid is to have a plan - a working model - clearly not the Heart - how they got in is obviously a mate looking after a mate thing Unless their baselines grows to double figures - they will not be sustainable south melbourne or someone else will pounce eventually losing a team in a major city is not a good thing - i sincerely hope they survive - but they need to do something more than selling players to get some coin That is not a long term strategy - nor does it assist in promoting the HAL So far their model has been more aligned with a development system rather than true commercial point of presence
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GCU till I die
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Benchwarmer wrote: So any debate on SMFC joining anytime soon without a massive collapse of Heart or Victory is premature. I thought the initial point of this debate is that a Heart collapse won't require something massive. Or do they have a sugar-daddy with palmeresque funds available?
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sugoibaka
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Without the Derby your average is 6600. You don't bring much at all to the table in and of yourselves.
It wouldn't take long for another team to generate a similar rivalry - the evidence is what happened with your very own team.
I daresay a new rival would be smarter and actually market itself as different to Victory in meaningful ways, not just ephemeral catch-cries of "different coach", "no Muscat", false "youth policy", "European football", "red not blue".
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sugoibaka
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chris wrote:Melbourne should have 3 teams atleast -
I disagree with the statement that Melbourne Heart need to average 15k fans to consider having a 3rd team due to the pace of their development Melbourne could eventually have 3 teams, should is a different matter altogether. Provided they play out of a suitable venue (size, hiring costs), teams besides Victory should only need 8-12k fans to be viable. Lakeside would be a perfect second venue for other teams in Melbourne.
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tbitm
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gabgabgab39 wrote:Arthur wrote:tbitm wrote:chris wrote:so the Heart are successful guys???
I don't think this thread would be more than 10 pages if the Heart were buzzing.....nor would the title have been such an issue to some of the guys
i am not talking about football performance either but rather the model
perhaps you should change the title to 41203=MHFC in. There is no other game in the country that can get this crow for a league match if heart weren't in the league. In season two I remeber being part of a crowd of over 42000 for a match against Sydney. Where has the other thousand people gone? If they where growing the game wouldn't the attendance be 50,000 and not just reliant on Victory supporters rolling up in numbers? That was during the ridiculous wave of success that MV gto in s2 (average of over 30k for etihad games) Not just ridiculous success for MV but a large success for the league averaging over 14k! But unfortunately things began to dwindle down to season 5 where the average was ~9k although MV were still able to average a solid 21k. In season 6 the game in Victoria grew 22% despite the league only growing 5% In season 7 the game in Victoria grew 10% despite the league only growing 2% So far in season 8 the game has grown in Victoria by 17% and so far this season the league has grown by 21% (I think its fair to say that most of the 21% has to do with the inclusion of ADP and the exclusion of GCU for WSW so its hard to keep up with growing at that pace, but nonetheless 17% is still a good effort) So yes the game is growing since Melbourne Heart joined.
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Ali07
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GCU till I die wrote:Benchwarmer wrote: So any debate on SMFC joining anytime soon without a massive collapse of Heart or Victory is premature. I thought the initial point of this debate is that a Heart collapse won't require something massive. Or do they have a sugar-daddy with palmeresque funds available? For this season, at least, Heart are looking at breaking even with their player sales. Add the 2 or so mil they'll be getting to cover the cap and their costs go down a lot. Have no idea how they will shape up financially with the FFA covering the cap, but can only imagine it being a good thing for Heart (and all HAL clubs).
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