'cept the heat our boys will provide. :cool:

Edited by u4486662: 30/4/2014 06:16:22 AM

There appears to be a pretty decent number of midfielders who are young and ready to take over from the older ones:
Luongo, Holland, Antonis, Sarota and Brattan. They can all play #6 or #8 and should be given a chance, at least post-WC.

good point

There is no heat in June in Porto Alegre.

Ange P has a the right idea.

I'm expecting 3 losses at the WC, unless Holland struggle with the heat.

It will be better to have lost three games at the WC with a younger team, rather than losing three with a more experienced team, who will be even older at the Asian Cup.

He needs some experience, Nickk.

I don’t mind Americans but I do find some of them a bit disconnected from the rest of the world. Spent a couple of weeks there in 2012, spent some time with an educated local family (business manager and architect) who had never heard of the Harbour Bridge or Opera House. Every time we spoke about the wonders of Australia a glazed looks came across their eyes, they just had no interest at all in what existed or what happened outside of their own borders. They did want to see Egypt though. Egypt!

Club players? As opposed to what kind of players?

Davidson is playing ok football for Heracles but he's looked awful for Australia. If Oar's season had been any more average he'd have completely faded into the background at Utrecht.

grazorblade

excellent point

I tend to think tournaments are different kettle of fish to one off internationals. A player may struggle to adapt in a one off but play beautifully at club level. When the world cup comes round and there are 7 games in a row including friendlies club players tend to shine

Oar is. But, to be perfectly honest, Davidson doesn't inspire all that much confidence for me, even though he's doing well in the Eredivisie. This might, partly, be because we absolutely dominated him when he played for Melbourne Grammar. It's also because whenever I've seen him play for Australia he has looked like a bit of a liability.

But still, at the moment, we've got nobody better (as Brad Smith betrayed us), so we might as well persevere with him.

Edited by quickflick: 23/4/2014 11:28:15 PM

Are you seriously saying Davidson and Oar aren't first 11 certainties?

Ryan and Jedinak are nailed on. The rest, nope.

Re above - completely failed to mention Spiranovic, my bad.

Re moving Davidson - there's an old adage that you don't strengthen one position by weakening another. We've finally found a LB, let's not mess with that.



Edited by thupercoach: 22/4/2014 05:31:50 PM

Looks like we have some quality CB's coming through, even if they're still a little underdone for the WC.

The problem position for the future looks to be rightback. Franjic fits Ange's style and has done well in most games, but he isn't as high quality as we would like.

I can't think of any young high potential RB's coming through. We might have to end up relying on Rhys WIlliams to play there?


Failed to mention Spira in all of that. He's probably the closest thing to a nailed on CB for the world cup.

Also, another option that no one has mentioned for CB is Jason Davidson with Zullo filling in on the left.
CB suits his strengths just as much as LB and he has a good amount of experience playing there for Hercules.

Edited by neanderthal: 22/4/2014 11:37:08 AM

Leckie and Halloran have been banging like porn stars lately

I'd say Ryan, Davidson, Milligan, Jedinak and Oar have done some serious banging lately.

You could say that about the entire squad really

Holland is certainly not a shoe-in. Too slow, not great positioning or technique. Useful when he's in a superior team against rubbish opposition. That's not exactly the Socceroos predicament.

Milligan is also too lacking technically and in terms of speed to start at CDM. It has to be Sarota. Our only player with great technique and speed for that position.

Rogic will definitely be used. If he's fit enough, Ange will start him. If not, he'll play the last half-hour. He's our only player capable of beating opposition players in 1 vs 1 situations by multiple means at pace. Pretty damning indictment of the rest of our players. Muscat and Lennon don't know how to use Rogic. But Ange does and Rogic has looked our most exciting player whenever he has played.

I'd start with Leckie at striker (Halloran on right wing) because results don't matter as much as the future, which means getting the style of football right.

If we start with Cahill, it means we'll just bomb it in early from the wings. We deserve to lose ten nil every match if we try that. I'd rather see us lose by playing actual football than to see us lose by marginally less by playing hoofball.


Cahill, Kennedy and Bresciano can be used as impact players.


-------------------------------------------------Leckie--------------------------------------------------------------


Oar-------------------------------------------Rogic------------------------------------------------------Halloran



--------------------------Jedinak-------------------------------------Sarota----------------------------------------



Davidson------------------Spiranovic--------------------------Sainsbury------------------------------Good



-----------------------------------------------------Ryan-----------------------------------------------------------------




Experience be damned. They'll get experience playing in the World Cup. It's about the future, not the results of this World Cup.

I disagree with this. Mate, if we had an in-form older central defender, then it would be silly to replace him with Good or Sainsbury. But the fact of the matter is that we don't. You pick players on the basis of their talent and (for this World Cup) what they'll be able to do for you in future.

Sainsbury and Good are both doing reasonable jobs at club level, even if Sainsbury didn't get a run against Ajax.

In fact, if a player is excellent enough, a coach will pick him even if he's getting no game time for his club. Ange has basically said he'll pick Rogic to start if Rogic is fit. I'd put Sainsbury in that category too.

Don't forget that nobody had heard of Wilkshire before Guus Hiddink picked him. His stock soared as a result of a NT coach having faith in him. Ditto Robbie Kruse under Holger. Just because a player isn't starting for his club, it doesn't mean he can't do a brilliant job for the NT. It doesn't mean he will do brilliant job for the NT, but a coach needs to use his discretion. And it's obvious that, if used appropriately, Rogic and Sainsbury will do excellent jobs.

Australia has Buckley's Chance at Brazil. It's all about the future. That means taking a punt on younger players who don't have much experience. So who cares if Good and Sainsbury haven't got much experience.

I say Sainsbury and Spiranovic are central defenders. Try Good at fullback. We need a really strong defender there. I don't think Franjic is strong enough defensively. Even though Good is a right footer, it will be a bit of an advantage because he he will be less vulnerable to being beaten on his inside. I used to play left wing or left striker as a right footer and I was far more comfortable cutting inside, and I could still cross well with my left foot.

Edited by quickflick: 22/4/2014 01:57:45 AM

If we had a group in which he had even the slimmest chance of progressing, then I'd agree that he should pick the best 23 players irrespective. As it happens, most of the best 23 players pick themselves anyway (Rogic, Oar, Sarota, Ryan, etc.), so that's something. But because we have virtually no chance of even getting a draw in any game, Ange has to say to himself that this World Cup is not about results, it's about style, in order that we establish a winning style for the future.

Now, by and large, this still means picking the best players. However, it does mean that he's going to have to favour a more exciting, purer style of football over the old cross it in to Kennedy and Cahill style. It's all about the future. Crossing it in to Kennedy and Cahill will not help us in the future, so Ange should scrap that has his primary means of trying to score. I'm disappointed that he pulled Tommy Oar aside ahead of the Ecuador game and told him to cross it in early as often as possible. If it had come out that Holger had asked Tommy to do that, lots of us would be criticising him. So I think Ange should be criticised for that too, if that's his primary means of scoring. It can be secondary, but not primary, because our future involves passing the ball on the deck and moving.

I don't mind using Kennedy and Cahill as impact players, but we mustn't rely on them.

If we stood a chance at this World Cup, then I'd say maybe start with Cahill up front and cross the ball more often. But we have no chance. So it's all about the future. This means you have to accept that you have to give the younger players a go at the expense of the older players, in many instances.

Take Bresciano, Cahill and Kennedy, but start them on the bench.

Spain did this when they got rid of Raul. I think the England rugby team that won the 2003 World Cup did this after the 1999 World Cup in preparation for t he 2003 World Cup.

Absolutely right, not one CB is absolutely banging the door down.

It's turning into the $64k dollar dilemma - 'Who will partner Matthew Spiranovic at CB, at this year's World Cup'?

People say Curtis Good, some logically say Lucas Neill, given his recent turn (His prospects genuinely increase), I was hoping Ryan McGowan put in a big showing with his club, a good run of starts and form this late period - but no doing there... Alex Wilkinson had his brain fart against Ecuador, though he's featuring in the K-League still.. Some people have even suggested 'The Og' return... Jade North is still playing, Roar in the A-League Finals. Much touted Trent Sainsbury wasn't even in Zwolle's latest squad (Which is a shame as his side just thrashed fancied Ajax 5-1 that game!).

The opportunity is there, but for those who's clubs are still playing - they really need to pull out all stops with Ange making decisions right now with the Preliminary squad to be announced circa May 10th or so!

The 'candidates' at the moment, do nothing but instil a distinct lack of confidence, at present!

The only reason Carney looked any good in 2010 was because defenders were surprised that he'd be so stupid as to run straight at them with reckless abandon. He was consistently caught out of position and had no fucking idea what hew as doing for large portions of the game. He doesn't read the game well at all and it finally caught up with him.

Thuper largely agreed though your example of Carney isn't the best - He was 'below-par' far more than just a few errors. Infact some of his brilliant goals in friendlies etc... just glossed over he constantly looking a player 'out of position' through most of his time spent at LB with the Socceroos. Not to get sidetracked though - your point still stands and indeed we need a balance and the minimum bar, as Ange wisely re-inforces, is regular senior level at a sufficiently high level. And that bar applies to young and old, from the likes of Curtis Good to Lucas Neill.

No matter who they are, they need to meet that bar first. Granted one exception to that rule may be Mitch Langerak unfortunately, but none-the-less GK and the circumstances there are tending to be an understandable exception.

We all have high hopes, faith, in the young defenders coming through, but they need to be 'battle hardened' for the immediate task facing us. There is a huge difference in experience comparing so-called 'young defenders' like Spiranovic, Rhys Williams and Ryan McGowan with Curtis Good, Trent Sainsbury and the like. The gap in 'relative experience' is quite stark and the actual experience of the likes of Spira and McGowan has collected over dozens of call-ups, camps and even tournaments over the years - so it's not just literally 'counting the caps' - though that too can reflect. This also re-inforces your own point Thuper - as I think a few tend to lump those players in the same basket, but in actuality the likes of Spira, Rhys Williams and Ryan McGowan are 'relative veterans' (To Good, Sainsbury, DeVere, Mrcela and even the 'older' Wilkinson and most other 'CB rivals' around 30yo or under) despite their age!

Just wanted to put that out there, as I feel tbh IF the likes of Curtis Good and/or Sainsbury make it, given their present lack of regular senior level football, then it must only be as 3rd-5th options in the CB rotation, rather than certain starters to partner Spira. Infact, I dare say, rather a player regularly featuring at Championship level right now, in 'oldie' Lucas Neill - rather than that scenario! And heck, that's how it may end up, at this rate - so hopefully Sainsbury bursts back into Zwolle's line up and/or Good has a strong late run of first team with his return to Dundeed Utd on-loan. We hope the likes of McGowan are regularly impressing in the C-League too as that will make Ange's job much easier!

Edited by GloryPerth: 21/4/2014 10:48:15 PM

Yeah I suppose, good arguments.

'Scuse the pun. The lead up matches would be a good test if he can at least handle semi-decent international quality.

I agree Good is quality, and he is definitely a better CB than Neill was at his age (not hard to do as Neill only started playing CB around 25 y/o). And you may be right, he may be ready for the WC.

What that needs to be balanced again is the fact that we will spend the majority of our three games defending, which means that his rawness could be exposed by the likes of Robben, Sanchez, Torres, etc. This could be a valuable experience or, if he makes a high profile error or two, destroy his confidence for the future.

Look at David Carney - an excellent 2010 WC, did well in the 2007 ACs and 2008 Olympics, was excellent in the 2011 ACs but one high profile error and idiots out there kept saying he cost us the Asian Cup.

A 28 year old can handle that kind of pressure but I'm not sure a 20 year old can. Maybe it's better to keep the older guys at CB, let them take the fall given the youth of the other CB contenders and leave the younger guys to pick up the pieces afterwards.

It's a negative way of looking at things but maybe has some merit.

I think Good should start at the world cup. I know, I know, he has been injured and hasn't got a lot of experience but I honestly think he's our most talented and composed CB we have at the moment. He walked into the Dundee United team and was pretty much the player of the month in the SPL. His debut against Ecuador was more than assured where he showed tremendous composure. Newcastle United expect him to be able to play EPL for the best part of the next decade.

He has the potential to captain the Socceroos for many years. He's a better CB than Neill was at that age.

I think the reality is that the majority of the players kind of pick themselves.

Nailed on:

Ryan, Langerak
Franjic, Davidson
Milligan, Jedinak, Holland
Oar, Bresciano, Rogic, Cahill, Leckie, Kennedy

The real question marks surround the centreback positions and Kruse's vacated right wing.

CB - experienced players in Neill and Ognenovski
Inexperienced players - Good, McGowan, Wilkinson, Sainsbury, Mrcela (in Williams' absence)

Right wing - apart from Leckie, options are Halloran and Vidosic (who can play centrally as well).

Rest of the squad - from:
GK - Galekovic, Jones
RB - McGowan, Wilkshire
LB - Zullo
CB - Sarota, Luongo, McKay
Attack - Troisi, Rukavytsia

I would say that's about it, and the overwhelming majority of the squad would be under 30 rather than over 30, with most of those 26 or below.

Now I expect that most of Cahill, Bresciano, Kennedy, Wilkshire, Neill, Thompson and Ognenovski will be retiring from the NT after the WC.

Kruse and Williams will come back in and the likes of Luongo, Antonis, Taggart, Sainsbury, Good and other younger players will get their chance at the Asian Cup or will at least be in with a very good chance. There will still be experience in Milligan and Jedinak but the team will be much younger and more mobile.

There may also be opportunities for Brillante, Ryall, D.McGowan, Giannou, Babalj, Mooy and Juric.

Which means that the WC team will look something like this:

.....................Ryan
Franjic....?????......?????......Davidson
...........Milligan.....Jedinak
................Bresciano
Leckie.................................Oar
....................Cahill


while the AC Cup side looks more like this:

.............................Ryan
Franjic......Williams.....??????........Davidson
................Milligan.........Jedinak
............................Rogic
Kruse.............................................Oar
........................????????

I think the reality is that the majority of the players kind of pick themselves.

Nailed on:

Ryan, Langerak
Franjic, Davidson
Milligan, Jedinak, Holland
Oar, Bresciano, Rogic, Cahill, Leckie, Kennedy

The real question marks surround the centreback positions and Kruse's vacated right wing.

CB - experienced players in Neill and Ognenovski
Inexperienced players - Good, McGowan, Wilkinson, Sainsbury, Mrcela (in Williams' absence)

Right wing - apart from Leckie, options are Halloran and Vidosic (who can play centrally as well).

Rest of the squad - from:
GK - Galekovic, Jones
RB - McGowan, Wilkshire
LB - Zullo
CB - Sarota, Luongo, McKay
Attack - Troisi, Rukavytsia

I would say that's about it, and the overwhelming majority of the squad would be under 30 rather than over 30, with most of those 26 or below.

Now I expect that most of Cahill, Bresciano, Kennedy, Wilkshire, Neill, Thompson and Ognenovski will be retiring from the NT after the WC.

Kruse and Williams will come back in and the likes of Luongo, Antonis, Taggart, Sainsbury, Good and other younger players will get their chance at the Asian Cup or will at least be in with a very good chance. There will still be experience in Milligan and Jedinak but the team will be much younger and more mobile.

There may also be opportunities for Brillante, Ryall, D.McGowan, Giannou, Babalj, Mooy and Juric.

Which means that the WC team will look something like this:

.....................Ryan
Franjic....?????......?????......Davidson
...........Milligan.....Jedinak
................Bresciano
Leckie.................................Oar
....................Cahill


while the AC Cup side looks more like this:

.............................Ryan
Franjic......Williams.....??????........Davidson
................Milligan.........Jedinak
............................Rogic
Kruse.............................................Oar
........................????????