I wonder what it would take to close that chasm

My point of view is that yes generally speaking our juniors are on par with the juniors of Europe.


But Real Madrids U12's are a select team with massive technical, financial, infrastructure and intellectual resources to support their junior development teams. And even then there is no guarantee that these RM boys will make their way to the Senior squad.
But then again to my knowledge only one player from Australia was ever considered by Real Madrid and that was Viduka.

The Chasm I have seen starts at U17 level and the gap widens to top level senior football.

Keep in mind that that isn't technically a comparison of the players and their ability at 12 years old. What kind of budget do they spend on coaching and management? No offense to Olympic or every other u12 Australian side, but they simply don't have the coaching or managerial resources (in terms of actual coaches and time) to compete at that level.

Who do you believe imparts a better tactical knowledge of the game to u12s? Sydney Olympic, or the Real Madrid academy? That's not a reflection on the technical skills or all-around ability of the players.

Its probably an unfortunate reality for our sport at all levels.

I read how the local associations in NSW have millions of dollars in cash and assets is this not money from parents of 12yo's used for what purpose?

Are the State Federations not doing the same?

And what of the FFA and their capitation fee? What do they use the money for and where does it end up?

It is a sad truth that junior money is propping up the game on multiple levels.

It appears the fee of $2500 for juniors and $1500 for SAP is not confined to Olympic, I'm pretty sure when I was researching the NPL for a bid in Melbourne that most of the NPL Clubs in NSW where at or near the limit.

So if any seepage from juniors is occuring I'd say they are all doing it.

I have heard this said a lot, that junior fees are used to subsidise senior teams.

I know with the NPL that there are more costs associated with running a club and the individual teams.

1. Teams;
2. Youth Development;
3. Coaching Accredatation:
4.Governance:
5. Finance:
6. Facilities:
7. Organisational structure
8. Membership Protection
9. Medical
10. Reporting

While not going into these criteria there is now a compliance cost that needs to be built into the costs just to say in the NPL that did not exist before.
Then there is the cost in meeting the criteria such as having the necessary medical staff and access to Sport Science that clubs before the NPL did not have as a cost.
Having the necessary coaching accredited coaches is expensive.
While having access to facilities 10 months of the year to meet NC requiremnts is also a significant impost.

I'm not saying that there isn't seepage to the senior costs but I think we can all see that meeting the costs of a professional junior development program does have significant costs.

The SAP Programs are quite good in theory is just the quality tends to be scattered around with the 30 clubs but i guess its a long term project where they want the quality to match every club, so i guess its too soon to judge. They want to reach these kind of program to every kid thats the aim of SAP. Get the very worst to reach the best etc.

Also the FNSW Institiute has changed with Tobin and even Foster in charge for the better apparently 12 NSW players were selected for the AIS Program which is 33 year old, but in the long term the both Sydney and future expansion club(s) in Sydney will eventually take over these programs. Like how they do it in Europe.

We hope to see the fruits of this in the 10 to 15 years or so, long term change isn't easy to manifest IMO. We need to be patient for the results to come through from the NC.[/quote]

Unfortunately, my observation has been that quality tends to be concentrated within the 'strong' SAP squads rather than sprinkled across the competition. Consistent 10-0 losses don't necessarily help these kids reach their best - particularly if the level of support (coaching etc) is not there. The 10-0 winners gain even less from these games.

I think its hard to defend both the SAP structure and the FNSW Institute as they are polar opposites in their philosophy, and SAP in no way prepares these kids for the cut-throat nature of selection for the institute and for NPL youth squads, nor for the pressures of promotion and relegation in the NPL Youth League. There can't be that much difference between an 11 year old and 12 year old boy.

I totally agree that over time A-League clubs will take over the elite youth development role of the State and National institutes, and hopefully this happen soon rather than later.

I agree with this. It will be interesting to see at what age these academies start and how they will impact on the current youth development programs and pathways.
Right now in Sydney, the top level is too concentrated (FNSW Institute elite squad of only 18 players from u12s)and the next level down( NPL Youth - 12 teams) is probably too broad. In SAP (U9s to U11s) it is even less selective with 30 SAP licences and over 600 kids per age group and no attempt to rank the teams. As a result, there is often a massive gap between teams, and results of 10-0, even 20-0 (forget about Real Madrid it happens here) the norm. [/quote]

The SAP Programs are quite good in theory is just the quality tends to be scattered around with the 30 clubs but i guess its a long term project where they want the quality to match every club, so i guess its too soon to judge. They want to reach these kind of program to every kid thats the aim of SAP. Get the very worst to reach the best etc.

Also the FNSW Institiute has changed with Tobin and even Foster in charge for the better apparently 12 NSW players were selected for the AIS Program which is 33 year old, but in the long term the both Sydney and future expansion club(s) in Sydney will eventually take over these programs. Like how they do it in Europe.

We hope to see the fruits of this in the 10 to 15 years or so, long term change isn't easy to manifest IMO. We need to be patient for the results to come through from the NC.

That part really annoys me and should not be happening. Why should the parents of a 12 yr old boy be paying the wages of a 30 year old wanna be in the clubs first team? its just rediculous.

[quote=Barca4Life
But with the A-League youth academies in time, there youth set-ups will make or break us into the future to terms of how we can push ourselves into the future. The grassroots will become important too but the pro clubs make the ultimate difference.

Edited by Barca4life: 25/4/2014 12:58:46 AM[/quote]

I agree with this. It will be interesting to see at what age these academies start and how they will impact on the current youth development programs and pathways.
Right now in Sydney, the top level is too concentrated (FNSW Institute elite squad of only 18 players from u12s)and the next level down( NPL Youth - 12 teams) is probably too broad. In SAP (U9s to U11s) it is even less selective with 30 SAP licences and over 600 kids per age group and no attempt to rank the teams. As a result, there is often a massive gap between teams, and results of 10-0, even 20-0 (forget about Real Madrid it happens here) the norm.

No idea about Olympic specifically but in general:
Right now the NSW NPL is completely structured around their first grade teams. This is natural but it would appear that the clubs are spending more on the first grade squads than they can afford to. The prestige associated with doing well in the FFA Cup will only accentuate this. While their is a cap on A-league club player payments, NPL clubs are able to divert money from their junior programs to their seniors without censure. Football NSW turn a blind eye because they know that these clubs are often struggling financially and having a regular stream of funds through SAP and NPL Youth means that most of them will be stable enough to not have to ask Football NSW for a bailout. Everyone wins, except for our youth and our game's future.

It is easy to blame the NPL clubs for this situation, but we also need to look at the role of the local associations, FNSW and the FFA who just sit back and watch the ever increasing piles of cash coming in through growing junior registrations, but give nothing back to the grassroots.

Well you can't say that Olympic has the best 12 yr olds in the country, it's not a rep team.

I'd like to see footage of the game to really see how much better they are and how they scored their goals.

Decentric and Arthur

I'm not sure if it was one of you who said this but... I seem to remember somebody saying that Han Berger (or some technical expert at the FFA) had said that there wasn't much separating the technical skills and all-round ability of Dutch 12 year olds and Australian 12 year olds. The problem was that the chasm appeared after that age.

If Real Madrid U12 are beating Sydney Olympic U12 15-0, doesn't that suggest there's a massive difference in (technical) ability of the best Australian twelve year olds and the best European twelve year olds.

I remember at the last afc u19 cup where we got flogged 5-1 by vietnam. Apparently arsenal had an academy there and the vietnamese squad was the result of that.

Lets hope that the a-league clubs can some what close the gap in the future maybe not to Real Madrid's or Barcelona's level but we should aspire to close the gap in the European/World Standard anyway.

Who knows maybe if Man City are true to what they want to do with the Melbourne Heart and invest in the youth academy and COE etc. it might just be a boon for Australian Football to take youth development into the next level.

This is how its done in Europe in anyway they don't have NTCs going around here at the moment, which they don't do a bad job but if can somehow mirror the standards set in Europe then we might have a chance. The numbers we can produce in terms of coaches and players they produce will be the key in the long run.
The National Football Feds. set the technical standards to be reached and the clubs do the work with producing the players.

But also i think in time the NPL will be important when developing a strong second tier of the game when developing players too but also as a way of creating that pathway to the point where future a-league clubs will come from as well. So this is important as well we shouldn't ignore this.

But with the A-League youth academies in time, there youth set-ups will make or break us into the future to terms of how we can push ourselves into the future. The grassroots will become important too but the pro clubs make the ultimate difference.

Also Arthur on a side note the same tournament Barcelona and Ajax played in the Under 12 final(MIC Cup) and the scoreline was Barcelona 5 Ajax 0. I know results don't matter in that level of the players development especially under 12s but its still quite interesting scoreline.



Edited by Barca4life: 25/4/2014 12:58:46 AM

That really is an enormous sum to pay for your 12 year old son to play football at his local club.

Ive got a couple of questions.

How many teams does Olympic have?

And how is this money being spent? is it used to pay the senior players at the club ?

Agree Arthur. The gap is huge. And in the financial comparison you make above you are actually overstating the amount of spending on rep youth players in NSW. The parents may pay $1500 (SAP) or $2500 (NPL Youth) here in Sydney but in most cases a large percentage of that money is used by the clubs not to develop their junior players, but instead to subsidise their First Grade Roster and to meet the substantial compliance requirements placed on NPL1 clubs by Football NSW.

On the other hand Rod what it also shows is how much it will cost or how much funding we need to get to the Top European Academy Standard.

While we are spending upto and upwards of $2500 per child and asking the childs family to foot the bill, clubs like Real Madrid would be spending $20K per child if not more.

And this is the only possible conclusion that can be made from the information at hand.

dirkvanadidas: You are probably right, but what it definitely does show is the prohibitive costs involved with playing representative youth football in Sydney and I assume elsewhere in Australia. And the lack of a clear pathway for these same junior players. Standards will not improve until something is done to deal with these two issues.

[quote=Rod Tilbrook

I am not connected with Olympic but generally:

1. If they are u12s these kids are no longer in the SAP program - they play in the top division of the NPL Youth League. There are 12 teams in the league. Currently Olympic are mid-table but my memory from last year is that they were one of the stronger SAP squads in u11s.

The only option above this league in Sydney is to trial for the U12s FNSW Institute squad - they play up a year in the same league.

2. Cost is capped at $2500 per year for NPL Youth (from u12s-u15s). SAP program (u9-u11 )is capped at $1500. Most clubs charge the full amount.

3. Most SAP and NPL youth teams train between 2-3 nights a week

At this age, any reasonable skills gap between teams often leads to big blowouts in scores, particularly if played on small-sided fields (not sure about the case for this tournament).
[/quote]

This just shows that the NPL juniors isn't the same standard as Euro academy and so why is it sold to parents as such, the reality is that NPL juniors is just good grassroots football with the odd player of euro academy standard.

I am not connected with Olympic but generally:

1. If they are u12s these kids are no longer in the SAP program - they play in the top division of the NPL Youth League. There are 12 teams in the league. Currently Olympic are mid-table but my memory from last year is that they were one of the stronger SAP squads in u11s.

The only option above this league in Sydney is to trial for the U12s FNSW Institute squad - they play up a year in the same league.

2. Cost is capped at $2500 per year for NPL Youth (from u12s-u15s). SAP program (u9-u11 )is capped at $1500. Most clubs charge the full amount.

3. Most SAP and NPL youth teams train between 2-3 nights a week

At this age, any reasonable skills gap between teams often leads to big blowouts in scores, particularly if played on small-sided fields (not sure about the case for this tournament).

hmmm perhaps then its surprising AU did so well then?

The post I put up about the Melbourne team playing in the Puskas Cup for U17's losing to Real Madrid 10-0 illistrates the differences in resources and available selection.

The Players in the Melbourne Team are pretty much at the top of their age level are playing with NPL Clubs at Senior, U20 and 18 levels.

I know or have seen a lot these boys at close level and they are quality.

No disrespect to them for losing by this score hopefully they have learnt a lot from their experience

Yeah, I don't think these results are unexpected at all. The gap in the funding that Barcelona and Real Madrid put into their youth teams compared to anything in Australia is almost unfathomable to people who haven't seen it before. In terms of the coaching and managerial quality and the resources in general, it's ridiculous to think that we would even compete with teams like that.

How often are these Olympic u12s training? And how much are the parents paying?

I know comparing with say, Ajax, isn't fair, but the academy there is free, the club picks up the players and they train at the academy for a few hours pretty much everyday. It's a completely different world and expecting Aussie kids to compete against that is just unrealistic.

And here is a little snippet from an American Blog and something I have to agree with.

Some of the early phase U12 results for this comp;
19:00 FC BARCELONA 12 - 0 EF BAIX TER (Catalunyan Football team)
18:00 REAL MADRID CF 4 - 0 ESPORT CLUB GRANOLLERS (Catalunyan Football Team)
10:00 CE MONT-RAS (Catalan Team) 0 - 27 FC BARCELONA
11:00 UE OLOT 0 - 6 REAL MADRID CF
19:00 AFC AJAX 14 - 0 PALAFRUGELL CF

You have to remeber who we are competing against, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Ajax are at the pinnacle of the world sport, even at this level they have the pick of local, national and international 12 year olds. All with the best facilities, methodology, coaches and finances. Let alone consideration for the Olympic U12 team is so far away from home, in new surroundings and probably not used to the tournament format
Even domestically theses big European Academies annihalte their local opposition.

It is an unrealistic expectation for our U12's to go over there to let alone win but lose by less to these Mega Clubs.

But this doesn't mean we cannot produce players, we can, it just means they have a better selection of 12 yo's of whom tthere is no gurantee that even these players will make it.

You are competing with European Tournaments, the December January period has oppurtunities because of the Noerthern winters.

Skill Acquisition Program as devised by Han Berger and FFA football department, delivered by NPL CLubs such as Olympic.

what are sap players?