http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99761

Barca has posted this elsewhere.

This issue again demonstrates to me the blatant ignorance of people in Australia with a very limited football background repudiating a model based on world's best practice.

This question constantly arises in Australia. Why do so many in Australia who come from a background devoid of European football knowledge, think they are so correct in repudiating it? They just don't seem to see the big picture.](*,)

We are hardly renowned as a football nation producing world class players prior to 2015, yet some seem to think they know better than the likes of Abrams, Berger, Baan, all conversant with exemplary football practice in Europe.](*,)





Edited by Decentric: 13/3/2015 10:36:59 AM

By the 2016 season, five ages from under 12s to under 16s could cease to include collective promotion, relegation and finals series for NPL clubs based on performances. The 12 teams from NPL 1 and 12 teams from NPL 2, along with two regional teams and the arrival of youth teams of both Sydney FC and Western Sydney Wanderers will be pooled together in one 28-team division.

They will be split into two 14-team conferences divided as either east and west or north and south. The move is to limit travel times of kids and parents, provide players in each district access to high-level football, improve the bottom standard of the existing top tiers and banish the negative tactics associated with promotion and relegation pressures of young ages.


"When an under 12s team is winning 1-0, they're often instructed by their coaches not to take any chances, not to play out the back. Within the NPL in NSW the need for young players to win because of relegation and promotion sees that we're not getting a real adoption to the national curriculum and coaches aren't being instructed by clubs to play football in the way we want and the way our national curriculum sets out to play," Casserly said.

The proposal has been praised by several coaches in youth development who believe young players need to focus on performance not results




I just cannot see anything wrong with this FFA model, as articulated by Luke Casserly.

Promotion /relegation is a results first based model that is now an anachronistic practice in youth/junior football. Why these stakeholders in football want to continue a paradigm that has failed, is perplexing.

There are also fears of lopsided performances and results in the short to medium term that could jeopardise player development. In recent inter-tier friendly games in youth games, scorelines of 17-0 and 15-2 were noted and could become common in competitive fixtures.

Former Socceroo, Mark Bosnich supports some stages of the model but is fearful of the lack of pressure young players learn to deal with. Before moving to Manchester United as a teenager, Bosnich cites the pressures of promotion, relegation and finals series as preparation for the jump to the English Premier League.

"My biggest fear is that you're going to have some teams that beat others by six-nil or more which is no good for anyone," he said. "[The flatline system for] Under 12s OK, under 13s at a push but from the age of 14 onwards, there should be times in a year when there is pressure on the boys to perform at a senior level, whether that is promotion or relegation or a finals series.

"These clubs are stakeholders in the games and have been for a very long time. They've jumped through hoops under the old Han Berger regime and it seems they've been told what's happening rather than being given the chance to discuss."





From my days coaching junior football, big scorelines in losses or defeats are counterproductive, I agree. Draws, close wins or close losses are the best outcomes.

However, Bozza has not updated his knowledge so he understands the premises of why we are doing what we do in Australian football development. It is now consistent with world's best practice in big European nations.

The Aussie system that produced Bozza, has not served us well producing a production line of top footballers like Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Italy, Germany, Spain, Holland, and France.

The likes of Bozza and Slater, are out of touch with the rationale behind recent developments in Australian football. In the past, we produced the odd high quality player in a different era, with different demands from the present. They are opinionated, but through ignorance.

At the same time I think Slater is an excellent match caller and I enjoy Bozza as a panellist. Pertinently, they don't have the contemporary match analytical ability of recently trained FFA pro trained coaches, like Aloisi, Rudan, Kossie, Foster, Zdrilic, Zwaanzwuik and the KNVB trained Pim Verbeek , on TV panels.

I have never understood the idea of a national curriculum.

Have you read it?

This presentation provides plenty of background.

http://www.footballwest.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/NPL/1_May_Presentation_-_Han_Berger.pdf

So even though the npl teams hate this way forward with there youth teams. Is this still going forward regardless of how the state teams feel? or are more negotiations needed?

I hear you Decentric but not every thing is black and white.

Why are U12's playing on full pitch 11v11? This is not best practice and I would also include U13's.

Why in Victoria are NPL youth required to play a match on Saturday and followup with another match on Sunday, surely this is not best practice? This will happen four times in 2015.

Why does the FFA football department look down on Futsal? Latin America as we all read uses Futsal as a key development tool upto 14yo.

Promotion Relegation is used in many countries at a youth level as a development tool.

Some of the best players in the world have been forged in some of the most ruthless environments.

I have become a strong advocate for Tom Byer's methodology and agree with him that a key issue with our sport is we have a weak Football Culture in Australia.

Three million people in Uruguay produce more world class players than Australia's 24 Million people. Hell we have around 1.9million registered footballers. Football Culture trumps Population.



Edited by Arthur: 14/3/2015 12:04:47 AM

Edited by Arthur: 14/3/2015 12:09:33 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/11441483/View-from-abroad-Why-English-clubs-toil-in-Europe.html

View from abroad: Why English clubs toil in Europe
Experts from Europe say no winter break, too much money and poor grass-roots football are all to blame

Spain - Money without ideas is useless

The prestige of the Premier League is superior to its quality. The main problem is that the coaches are not good enough, from the grass roots to the elite. Another problem is that English football has an identity crisis. Arsenal have little spirit, Manchester City have lots of talent but little heart, while Chelsea have little identity. The money from the new TV deal should be good for English football, but money without ideas is useless. English football needs to grow from the bottom. You don’t need to spend lots of money on grass-roots football, but you need instruction, a will to learn and to change. That is what English football is lacking.

Diego Torres, El Pai­s

Italy - Grass roots is biggest problem

The Premier League competes with the Liga as the best championship in Europe. I’d say the Premier League is No 1. Of course Italians are envious of the latest TV deal – we are envious of everything in English football. But you have to be careful with all this money. The biggest problem in England is grass-roots football, there is not a great system of developing tactics at that level. Look at Gareth Bale. He is a fantastic footballer but since he came to Spain he has had to relearn how to play football. We think of the Premier League as a collection of great stars but with no identity. There is no defined style in England any more.

Filippo Ricci, Gazzetta dello Sport

France - Winter break is a no-brainer

It’s very often at this time of the year that your players get tired but England has to have a winter break. You can keep your Boxing Day, no problem, but you can’t play four games in eight days every year and expect your top clubs still to be very competitive come February or the end of March and compete with a club like Bayern Munich who have had six weeks off in the winter. If England had a winter break, not only would your international team be better as well, but I think you would have won more Champions League titles than you have. It’s an absolute no-brainer. Players need to rest like everybody else.

Julien Laurens, Le Parisien

Belgium - More cautious approach required

I grew up with the big Italian teams where there used to be lots of good defending. The first thing I noticed when I came to England was the teams in the Premier League usually have a kamikaze high line, but when you meet better teams like Real Madrid a manager maybe needs to adapt. The only one I really see adapting in Europe is maybe Chelsea. Maybe the Premier League is a victim of its open, spectacular games. They do everything to win a game. Maybe in Europe you just have to take a more cautious approach. The Premier League, they always boast, is the best league in the world. Maybe it’s just the best brand.

Kristof Terreur, HLN

Germany - New TV deal leaves rivals behind

The Premier League is still the richest and maybe the best. It surprised me how the English teams are doing in Europe so far, but I think that will change. The new TV contract will put the Premier League on a level which nobody will be able to follow. They will make the first £100 million signing and they will be able to give money to players that no other team can spend. A friend of mine said the Champions League is for the champions, but if you want to know what’s going on in the whole league you have to look at the Europa League.

I don’t think Germany or England can be too proud of the results on Thursday.

Lars Wallrodt, Die Welt

In SA some clubs are putting U10 straight to a U12JSL (second tier) by passing the U11's altogether. They call this a development squad so they can learn to play 11 v 11 on a big pitch for when they reach U12JPL (first tier) the next year. Instead of the 9 v 9 on smaller pitch for U11. The more we change the more things stay the same.

I'll answer a lot of your points over time, Arthur.

There is a lot to respond to.

Didn't realise some of these things were happening?

In Germany, France, Spain, Holland and Italy they have one.


We had nothing, just an ad hoc approach. One coach might have been doing something good , another something good but incompatible with the the first coach. Most were doing useless stuff. There was no national honcho overseeing a holistic program, like the European powerhouses.


If the top nations in the world have a national curriculum, it makes sense that we follow them. Belgium and Germany have improved since they've adopted a model strongly based on the Dutch and French models.





Edited by Decentric: 14/3/2015 11:29:54 AM

Apparently Northcote in Victoria are strongly implementing the FFA NC.

When I was TD of a Tassie NPL club, it was the same with this club. In Tassie most are NPL clubs are following the FFA NC with a passion , guided by FFA state branch.

In this thread there is a NPL president participating from another Victorian NPL club who follows the FFA NC, as I understand it.

It a is an interesting discussion when to convert to 11 v1 1.

Brazil have 5 a side until under 13, when they go to 11 v 11.

The tactics are important, but under 12s and under 13s should play on smaller pitches if they play 11 v 11. I have an open mind on this. There are technical disadvantages, but tactical advantages about converting to 11 v 11.

Good point.


Some in FFA hate futsal.

Others in FFA love it.

There is a dichotomy within the FFA organisation. I can't name who said what as I would be breaching private conversation protocols. Some criticise others who are against futsal as a development tool.

I think futsal is wonderful.

Not really seeking a response D just pointing out that there are always anomalies.

There are more than one way to develop a player, the world shows us this.

For mine I believe Football Culture is the key.

In Australia, most kids can bowl and bat in cricket, in the southern states most kids can bounce kick and catch an AFL footy, in the northern states most kids can throw a Rugby ball, most kids in Australia cannot juggle the ball 10 times on one foot let alone pass it straight.

Your 100% football culture is the problem. Most people in this country still have no idea that you need do develop skills by repetition from a young age.

I ran a summer skills camp and practically begged some parents to bring their kids. of course they did not and now i have inherited their kids with very little skill into a team of brilliant players. yes i am the worst in the world for separating the two groups at training and giving them separate drills.

This i cant understand, why the best countries in the World start to play 11v11 until 13 or even 14 whilst we start at 12. If we want to increase the emphasis on technique on our young players even further then we must allow them to play 7v7 and later on 9v9 until no later than 13, unlike when they finish at 11.

I hope the new FFA TD can look to change this in the future.

Edited by Barca4life: 15/3/2015 11:46:49 AM

Having coached last year at U8, so the first year move to a larger field and 6 outfield players, I would argue the size of the field is too large for the number of players, also the tactics used by other coaches but I wont go into that. I would argue at the size of the field drops players skill levels. I think the number of players is right just smaller field, which I guess is the argument to futsal.

Training U9's now and I am seeing that the years "growth" the size of the field is probably close to being right. So I would argue that it is probably 1 year to quick. Not sure if this means it is 1 year too quick throughout the ages, I'll have to wait and see. I can't make my child age any quicker ;)

I will add, that the by in on the National Curriculum at grassroots level is patchy, I know my club has bought into it and we are now developing a club style based on it, so that right from u6 to eventually Premier League (I assume) we will play in the same style.

I know one of the larger clubs in our area has bought into it and are doing the same thing, having a style through out the club but based on the National Curriculum.

But the largest club in our area, is the opposite pays lip service but ignores the purpose

It is of great concern that this happens at all.

It is not as if there is a massive reservoir of football knowledge out there in Australia, that is comparable to the knowledgeable minds in football who developed the FFA NC based on world's best practice.





Edited by Decentric: 16/3/2015 02:04:59 PM