Former Auschwitz guard Oskar Gröning jailed over mass murder


Former Auschwitz guard Oskar Gröning jailed over mass murder

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quickflick
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Kate Connolly for Reuters but appearing in The Guardian on 15 July, 2015 wrote:
German court sentences 94-year-old to four years in prison after finding him guilty of being accessory to murder of 300,000 people

A 94-year-old German who worked as a bookkeeper at the Auschwitz death camp has been convicted of being an accessory to the murder of 300,000 people and sentenced to four years in prison, in what could be one of the last big Holocaust trials.

Oskar Gröning did not kill anyone himself while working at the camp in Nazi-occupied Poland during the second world war, but prosecutors argued that by sorting the banknotes taken from the trainloads of arriving Jews he helped support a regime responsible for mass murder.

White-haired Gröning, who has been on trial since April, has admitted moral guilt but said it was up to the court to decide whether he was legally guilty.

He said this month he could only ask God to forgive him as he was not entitled to ask this of victims of the Holocaust.

The trial went to the heart of the question of whether people who were small cogs in the Nazi machinery, but did not actively participate in the killing of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, were guilty of crimes. Until recently, the answer from the German justice system was no.

During his time at Auschwitz, Gröning’s job was to collect the belongings of the deportees after they arrived by train and had been put through a selection process that resulted in many being sent directly to the gas chambers.

Gröning, who was 21 and by his own admission an enthusiastic Nazi when he was sent to work at the camp in 1942, inspected people’s luggage, removing and counting any banknotes that were inside and sending them on to SS offices in Berlin, where they helped to fund the Nazi war effort.

Prosecutors concentrated the charge on the period between May and July 1944, the time of the mass deportation of Hungary’s Jewish community during which 137 trains brought 425,000 people to Auschwitz, of which at least 300,000 were exterminated in the gas chambers.

During that period guards worked around the clock as the trains rolled in, sometimes several at once, to ensure as many Jews were murdered as possible as the war began drawing to a close.

Many Germans are keen to draw a line under the Holocaust and seal the postwar democratic identity of their nation. Some find distasteful the pursuit of old men, often in poor health, for crimes committed nearly 70 years ago.

Gröning, who uses a walking frame, is frail and in May the court decided to limit the time he spent in the courtroom to three hours a day in view of his health problems, which had led to delays.

In court in April Gröning was pushed by a prosecutor to answer whether he knew what the SS stood for when he volunteered to join it. He replied: “It is hard to describe it to someone of your generation who was not there. It is simply inexplicable.”

As a young SS recruit he recalled being assigned a special and secret task, and was called along with other young men to a marble-clad conference room in the heart of the Nazi power centre in Berlin to swear an oath of allegiance to the Third Reich.

“They told us that we had to sign up on the spot to certain obligations regarding tasks we would be given that would be unpleasant but that had to be done in order to ensure the final victory,” he said. But he insisted he had not known that Auschwitz was a factory of death until after his arrival there in the autumn of 1942.

“I knew it was a place that I didn’t want to be, that made me scared, but I didn’t know why,” he said. On his first evening, he and the other SS newcomers had been plied with vodka by their superiors. It was revealed to them that Jews arriving at Auschwitz who were considered unsuitable for slave labour were “disposed of”.

“It completely shook me,” he said. “I had had five glasses of vodka and continued to think about it when I woke up next morning.” He claimed that a breakthrough moment when his “enthusiasm for Adolf” began to wane had come several weeks into his arrival when a crying baby was discovered hidden in one of the suitcases, likely left by a mother who had hoped to prevent its death.

He witnessed an SS guard pick the baby out and smash it against a lorry. “It was the worst moment of any I had experienced,” he said. “The next day I went to see my head of department and told him I wanted out of the whole business. My precise formulation was: ‘If things like that are always happening here, what a shitty dump this is, and I want out.”

He succeeded in securing a transfer only after making his third application, he said in April.

The trial marks the second attempt to bring Gröning to court. An investigation that began in 1978 collapsed seven years later with prosecutors ruling that unless it could be proven that Gröning was directly responsible for the deaths of prisoners, he could not be put on trial. But since the 2012 conclusion of the trial of John Demjanjuk in Munich, in which judges ruled he was an accessory to mass murder simply by working at the Sobibor extermination camp, a change of practice has taken place, in which an individual’s mere presence at a concentration camp coupled with the knowledge they knew what was happening there, is sufficient to secure a conviction.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/15/auschwitz-guard-oskar-groening-jailed-over-mass-murder


Thoughts on the moral and legal justifications and implications of this?
quickflick
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This feels a lot like a show trial.

On the one hand, I'm deeply uncomfortable about this. But on the other hand, I remember some documentary or something where somebody went somewhere in the deep south of the USA and tried to find former members of the Ku Klux Klan. I vaguely remember they found one old man who had, allegedly, lynched an African-American. They tried to question him. Some old (white) woman said that they should just leave him alone and it was in the past. I remember feeling revolted by her view of it.

But I think the difference between those situations is that Oskar Gröning's crimes are nowhere near as heinous as those of the KKK man. This German man sounds like he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't brave, but he wasn't the kind of Himmler-esque Nazi either. I don't think he should be prosecuted given what appears to be the extent of his involvement.

Maybe every bureaucrat in Nazi Germany should be prosecuted. Maybe everybody in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office should be prosecuted for heinous crimes committed by the British. It feels like this old man is an outlet and victim of other people's guilt and bloodlust.
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What a load of shit.

21 years old being told what to do with basically no say or power. What was he supposed to do? By the end of the war, every German was forced into national service. Are they all guilty too?
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Definitely a show trial. Will they be jailing the modern day nazis who run the European parliaments? Yeah nah doubt it.


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TheSelectFew wrote:
Definitely a show trial. Will they be jailing the modern day nazis who run the European parliaments? Yeah nah doubt it.


Bruh leave Angela alone.

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i cried a little reading about the baby. After have two children the thought of shit like that really disturbs me.

But yes what would anyone else have done at the time just fall in to line of what you were told.

He didnt actually kill anyone and sounds like he was as someone else suggested he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

People these days can't say what it would have been like how can you judge someone from something that happened year ago. Unless he was holding a gun murdering people just leave it alone i think.

This is coming from someone who's grandfather is a polish jew.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Seems to me he was braver than most, asking for a transfer after witnessing the baby incident. Can't believe the court could come to this conclusion.


Agreed, the fact he remained persistent after twice being refused the transfer speaks volumes about his willingness to contribute to these atrocities, poor form from the courts IMO.
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quickflick wrote:
Thoughts on the moral and legal justifications and implications of this?

Technically speaking, in NSW at least, an 'aider and/or abettor' of a serious crime is liable for the same punishment as the principal person - the guy who inflicted the murderous act.

Just the knowledge of the criminal intention and maybe a sense of approval is enough to suffice the definition of an 'aider or an abettor'.

So having said that, I don't think there will be any implications reflecting the laws of the western world tbh
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vincenzogold wrote:
i cried a little reading about the baby. After have two children the thought of shit like that really disturbs me.

But yes what would anyone else have done at the time just fall in to line of what you were told.

He didnt actually kill anyone and sounds like he was as someone else suggested he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

People these days can't say what it would have been like how can you judge someone from something that happened year ago. Unless he was holding a gun murdering people just leave it alone i think.

This is coming from someone who's grandfather is a polish jew.


I found it really hard to read about what happened to that poor baby. I'd be traumatised for life if I actually saw that. That's punishment enough, I think (given this man didn't kill anybody).
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Anybody interested in this should read Emma Barnett's link in the British newspaper The Telegraph on 15 July, 2015.

Here's the link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11741109/Auschwitz-Oskar-Groning-is-going-to-jail-I-still-want-to-kill-Hitler.html

I don't think we're supposed to post content from The Telegraph for copyright reasons. Are we allowed to post links to their articles? If not, I'll remove it.

As far as I'm concerned, the woman is atrocious. She totally scapegoats. Fair enough she would have loved to have killed Hitler. But she's scapegoating a man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My saying this is really controversial but I kind of feel it needs to be said. I think the reaction of many (but by no means all) Jewish people to the Holocaust is utterly, utterly wrong. It's all about bloodlust and subordinating (and sacrificing) other people for the sake of protecting and enabling the prosperity of the Jewish people.

We had somebody speak at our school who had worked with victims of the Rwandan genocide. This person knew a young Tutsi girl who had been hidden in the bathroom of a kind Hutu during the genocide. Her entire family was butchered to death. She could hear Hutus outside the house calling her name as they tried to find her and kill her. Initially (and completely understandably) she wanted God to smite them off the face of the planet. Then she brought herself to feel sorry for people so driven to unimaginable cruelty. She even forgave them. She just wanted the bloodletting to stop. Now I think she's maybe too tolerant. I wouldn't blame somebody for wanting to kill somebody who had killed members of their family (even though I wouldn't condone it). But this woman must have been a remarkable person. Look at her strength of character.

Then contrast it with the way many (but certainly not all) Jewish people have gone about things. Fair enough they wanted to bring Eichmann to trial. If anybody deserved to be killed he did (even though I think it was morally wrong for him to be executed). But at least it wasn't utterly unreasonable. Imprisoning this old man who was not guilty of killing anybody is absurd.

And what this woman rights is consistent with the way a lot of Jewish people feel about retribution and security. Not all by any means. Listen to what Miriam Margoyles, not all think that way but a lot do. I have Jewish friends who are as fair-minded as anybody (and lots are highly intelligent and educated, no surprise). I'd imagine John Safran is quite fair too. But lots of Jewish people. Jeez. The state of Israel was founded with this idea of "Never again". I don't think that's the way a nation should be built. Rather than thinking about equality and liberty, they were determined to be powerful. And they went through Arab villages just killing all the Palestinians there (men, women and children) in the late 1940s. They were as bad as the Nazis. And look at Israel now. No better.

What Emma Barnett writes is more of the same. The things she describes in the second last paragraph regularly happen in Israel.

The reason I'm ranting is that what this woman writes is absolutely in keeping with Israel's narrative.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Geez the channel 10 reporting on this is some pro-Zionist propaganda.


Surprised they didn't get Andrew Bolt to read it out :lol:
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What a bunch of Zionist-driven crap. This "trial" is purely politically motivated to keep the holocaust in people's minds, because after all it is literally the onlybad thing to ever happen in history.

I wish bloodthirsty Jews like the one you linked Quickflick would think about the hypocrisy of their actions. I thought the holocaust was supposed to remind us of the horrors that raw, unfettered hatred brings us. It reminds us of how vengeance and and unthinking hatred leads us to things like what we saw at Auschwitz.

Emma Barnett wrote:
So what do her descendants and people like me make of today’s verdict? Well, we are quietly but firmly grateful. Grateful that we live in a society where civilisation and courtroom justice has triumphed over senseless barbarism and vengeance.

Of course, the childish part of me is still silently seething. Gröning and Hitler’s other executioners don’t deserve to benefit from the civic values they worked so hard to dismantle.


Yet these people are guilty of the same things the Nazi's were (obviously to a far lesser degree, albeit). They irrationally target people purely out of some sick desire for revenge and vengeance.

For shame.



Edited by 433: 16/7/2015 08:29:25 PM
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Had he been on the front lines and conscripted into the Wehrmacht he'd probably be considered a hero, but being conscripted into the SS and being sent to work in a concentration camp makes him a monster like gobbles, Hitler, Himmler or Mengele? Don't think so

Not every German was a Nazi, but they did want to survive a war
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That's fucked. Poor guy.
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Fucking blokes talking about being "irrational" and "zionists" propaganda. Give me a break.

I wonder how "rational" you'd act if your mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and cousins were systematically murdered.

Talk is very, very cheap.

Not a single person here has ever experienced the horrors of WW2 but still profess to ponce around here offered unqualified opinions on this that and the other like they're a friggin expert.

Punch yourselves square in the face.




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Manrub mah nipzzzzz



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Munrubenmuz wrote:
Fucking blokes talking about being "irrational" and "zionists" propaganda. Give me a break.

I wonder how "rational" you'd act if your mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and cousins were systematically murdered.

Talk is very, very cheap.

Not a single person here has ever experienced the horrors of WW2 but still profess to ponce around here offered unqualified opinions on this that and the other like they're a friggin expert.

Punch yourselves square in the face.


Is this legit? Did you even read the article?
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I think this will enlighten people a fair bit on what pressure the guy was under to conform

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCVlI-_4GZQ
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Eastern Glory wrote:
Is this legit? Did you even read the article?


Are you honestly surprised?

I was waiting for this and it did not disappoint one bit :lol:
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Eastern Glory wrote:
Munrubenmuz wrote:
Fucking blokes talking about being "irrational" and "zionists" propaganda. Give me a break.

I wonder how "rational" you'd act if your mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and cousins were systematically murdered.

Talk is very, very cheap.

Not a single person here has ever experienced the horrors of WW2 but still profess to ponce around here offered unqualified opinions on this that and the other like they're a friggin expert.

Punch yourselves square in the face.


Is this legit? Did you even read the article?


Yes mate I read the article. You'll note I didn't offer an opinion on whether or not the bloke should be jailed or not.

What I object to are fucksticks saying you should "forgive and forget" or it's all "a bunch of Zionist-driven crap" or "I think the reaction of many (but by no means all) Jewish people to the Holocaust is utterly, utterly wrong. It's all about bloodlust and subordinating (and sacrificing) other people for the sake of protecting and enabling the prosperity of the Jewish people." when they have never, ever experienced anything close to what some people went through during the war.

Walk a mile in their shoes and then come on here and say whether Jewish people have a right to feel aggrieved or not.



Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 17/7/2015 11:13:11 AM


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Munrubenmuz wrote:
What I object to are fucksticks saying I think the reaction of many (but by no means all) Jewish people to the Holocaust is utterly, utterly wrong. It's all about bloodlust and subordinating (and sacrificing) other people for the sake of protecting and enabling the prosperity of the Jewish people." when they have never, ever experienced anything close to what some people went through during the war.

Walk a mile in their shoes and then come on here and say whether Jewish people have a right to feel aggrieved or not.


You can't have been reading too well because no one has explicitly said anything of the sort, the outrage has stemmed from the feeling that this individual does not deserve to be punished for the crimes in question. No one is denying the scale of the atrocity, nor is anyone questioning the need for justice, this is just plain and simple disagreeing that this one man deserves to be punished by the judicial system in light of the facts contained within this article.

The statements made in this thread are not about the Holocaust or any War atrocities in general, they are about the trial of one man. If you have trouble separating these comments made in relation to a specific case from the wider issue at hand then this is your problem, accusing posters of irrational logic and suggesting they punch themselves over something only you seem to be struggling with is the height of ridiculousness.

As for this


]
Munrubenmuz wrote:
I wonder how "rational" you'd act if your mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and cousins were systematically murdered.


Obviously none of us could say how we'd react in that circumstance. However I'd say the fact so many posters here are willing to defend a German and can recognize that soldiers are at the mercy of their superiors, suggests we'd be a lot more considerate than you're giving us credit for, especially when you consider at least a few of us would have had family members killed in action against the Germans.
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Fredsta wrote:

You can't have been reading too well because no one has explicitly said anything of the sort.


Everything in italics and bolded is verbatim from the previous page. (And there's heaps more if you care to read the erudite musings of 433 and Quickflick.)

"a bunch of Zionist-driven crap"

or

"I think the reaction of many (but by no means all) Jewish people to the Holocaust is utterly, utterly wrong. It's all about bloodlust and subordinating (and sacrificing) other people for the sake of protecting and enabling the prosperity of the Jewish people."

or

They irrationally target people purely out of some sick desire for revenge and vengeance.

They are not comments about whether or not the sentence was just retribution for his "crimes" they are statements on the Jewish reaction to the horrors they have experienced which is why I commented.





Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 17/7/2015 11:49:58 AM


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Munrubenmuz wrote:
They are not comments about whether or not the sentence was just retribution for his "crimes" they are statements on the Jewish reaction to the horrors they have experienced which is why I commented


No, they are statements made in regards to specific examples and/or individuals and this is is clear when you read the entirety of their posts rather than taking sentences out of context so that they fall in line with your point.
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433 wrote:
What a bunch of [size=6]Zionist-driven crap[/size]. This [size=6]"trial"[/size] is purely politically motivated to keep the holocaust in people's minds, because after all it is literally the onlybad thing to ever happen in history.

I wish [size=6]bloodthirsty Jews[/size] like the one you linked Quickflick would think about the hypocrisy of their actions. I thought the holocaust was supposed to remind us of the horrors that raw, unfettered hatred brings us. It reminds us of how vengeance and and unthinking hatred leads us to things like what we saw at Auschwitz.

Emma Barnett wrote:
So what do her descendants and people like me make of today’s verdict? Well, we are quietly but firmly grateful. Grateful that we live in a society where civilisation and courtroom justice has triumphed over senseless barbarism and vengeance.

Of course, the childish part of me is still silently seething. Gröning and Hitler’s other executioners don’t deserve to benefit from the civic values they worked so hard to dismantle.


Yet these people are guilty of the same things the Nazi's were (obviously to a far lesser degree, albeit). [size=6]They irrationally target people purely out of some sick desire for revenge and vengeance[/size].

For shame.


Obviously I have a comprehension problem.


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Fredsta wrote:
Munrubenmuz wrote:
They are not comments about whether or not the sentence was just retribution for his "crimes" they are statements on the Jewish reaction to the horrors they have experienced which is why I commented


No, they are statements made in regards to specific examples and/or individuals and this is is clear when you read the entirety of their posts rather than taking sentences out of context so that they fall in line with your point.


Manrubenmuz wrote:
433 wrote:
What a bunch of Zionist-driven crap. This "trial" is purely politically motivated


433 wrote:
I wish bloodthirsty Jews like the one you linked Quickflick would think about the hypocrisy of their actions


433 wrote:
Yet these people are guilty of the same things the Nazi's were (obviously to a far lesser degree, albeit). They irrationally target people purely out of some sick desire for revenge and vengeance


Munrubenmuz wrote:
Obviously I have a comprehension problem.


It would certainly seem that way.
Muz
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Fredsta wrote:
Fredsta wrote:
Munrubenmuz wrote:
They are not comments about whether or not the sentence was just retribution for his "crimes" they are statements on the Jewish reaction to the horrors they have experienced which is why I commented


No, they are statements made in regards to specific examples and/or individuals and this is is clear when you read the entirety of their posts rather than taking sentences out of context so that they fall in line with your point.


Manrubenmuz wrote:
433 wrote:
What a bunch of Zionist-driven crap. This "trial" is purely politically motivated


433 wrote:
I wish bloodthirsty Jews like the one you linked Quickflick would think about the hypocrisy of their actions


433 wrote:
Yet these people are guilty of the same things the Nazi's were (obviously to a far lesser degree, albeit). They irrationally target people purely out of some sick desire for revenge and vengeance


Munrubenmuz wrote:
Obviously I have a comprehension problem.


It would certainly seem that way.


Let's just take one of those statements and look at it for a second.

Explain to me why "trial" is in inverted commas?

Inverted commas imply that the trial was illegitimate. Why?


Member since 2008.


Muz
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433 wrote:

"What a bunch of Zionist-driven crap."


Why are you defending the indefensible? These rantings look like something you'd find on a holocaust denial site.


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Fredsta
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Munrubenmuz wrote:
Let's just take one of those statements and look at it for a second.

Explain to me why "trial" is in inverted commas?

Inverted commas imply that the trial was illegitimate. Why?


Because based on the facts within that article it seems unfathomable that a court of justice could find this man guilty of such crimes.
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Fredsta wrote:
Munrubenmuz wrote:
Let's just take one of those statements and look at it for a second.

Explain to me why "trial" is in inverted commas?

Inverted commas imply that the trial was illegitimate. Why?


Because based on the facts within that article it seems unfathomable that a court of justice could find this man guilty of such crimes.


The "trial". Not the verdict.

They're different things.

You know they are.


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Muz
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Fredsta wrote:
Munrubenmuz wrote:
Let's just take one of those statements and look at it for a second.

Explain to me why "trial" is in inverted commas?

Inverted commas imply that the trial was illegitimate. Why?


Because based on the facts within that article [size=6]it seems unfathomable that a court of justice could find this man guilty of such crimes[/size].


Fredsta wrote:

Munrubenmuz wrote:
Obviously I have a comprehension problem.


It would certainly seem that way.


Is it me that has the comprehension problem or you?

In the OP it says this:

"But since the 2012 conclusion of the trial of John Demjanjuk in Munich, in which judges ruled he was an accessory to mass murder simply by working at the Sobibor extermination camp, a change of practice has taken place, in which an individual’s mere presence at a concentration camp coupled with the knowledge they knew what was happening there, is sufficient to secure a conviction."

It's pretty clear that based on the above this bloke was cactus the moment he stepped foot in the court.



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