edited: [too nihlistic]

Edited by condemned666: 23/3/2016 06:47:37 PM

Terrific post.

In response to your first point, which I've made bold... My stance is not that religion has nothing to do with this. Simply that a minority of psychopaths are selectively applying aspects of a religion to indoctrinate marginalised people. Thus religion is not irrelevant. Religious texts are being used (or abused, rather) to justify these atrocities.

But I think you realise, from your next comment, that most rational people think along these lines.

Marxism was used as a vehicle to commit atrocities, too. Many aspects of works of Marx and Engels speak of equality and decent values. But there are violent aspects too which Lenin used to justify his coup d'état. On the whole, the works of Marx and Engels are stupid because all their theory is predicated on fallacious reasoning (as anyone who has studied economics will know) and they subordinate the all-important rights of the individual, rather than giving the individual's rights pre-eminence. It's also based on jealousy of privileged people and class hatred.

The long-winded point is that Marxist ideology, already fatally flawed in the first place, was essentially abused to create the Soviet system of government.

I do actually think Marxism (or the way it has been practised in the 20th Century) has been a force for evil (when you weigh it up). I think, like religious beliefs/organisations, Marxist organisations have the right to exist and Marxists are free to say, publish, etc. whatever they please. But I think that it has, overall, done far more harm than good.

Perhaps the same can be said of religion. I genuinely no longer know.

As for the second bit I hightlighted... most of that lot aren't capable of computing these kind of implications. That or they don't want to.

Any excuse to hate dark skinned people.

Edited by quickflick: 23/3/2016 07:09:53 PM

100 years ago the Turks committed genocide against the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks in the remnants of their empire, killing well over a million people. The selected groups were murdered because they weren't muslims. From the koran to the present day islam has a history of murder.

So a well educated young muslim from a prosperous family makes a video describing how he plans to kill the infidel for islam, shouts Allahu akbar and blows himself up but it is ok islam had nothing to do with it. You heard so at uni.

Mental gymnastics, my foot. I've maintained the same position from the outset.

I suggest you look up the definitions of explanation and excuse.

I have provided an explanation. This does not justify these atrocities. That does not mitigate it. They're by no means acceptable. Those who co-ordinated them should feel the full force of the law.

This airport attack is, more or less, the moral equivalent of when the United States launches a drone strike, fully aware of the probability of high civilian casualties, and a bunch of kids die.

That's in no way acceptable. Those responsible should be court-martialled, stand trial for war crimes and go to prison.

Neither the airport attack nor a drone strike which kill innocent civilians can be excused. I have never excused either. Can they be explained?

Yes. There are, usually, explanations for both. The explanation for the airport attack is probably that they're responding to Western atrocities (e.g. drone strikes) and that the individuals who carry out the attacks may have been made to feel like second-class citizens in their own country (MARGINALISATION!!!!).

The explanation for the drone strike is likely that a key player for ISIS was in the building, he had a lot of American blood on his hands and they wanted to take him out. They just weren't too fussed about the collateral damage.

Neither of those explanations justify or excuse those two terrible crimes against humanity. They explain it.

The difference is that if there is a chance of innocent children being killed Western armies do not launch an attack, I know this based on 20 years as an army officer who served in Australian, US, UK and NATO HQ. You say otherwise based on knee-jerk anti-Americanism. The Bin Laden raid would have been much easier as a bombing but there were too many civilians and children present.

Your precious terrorist heroes launch attacks solely to target civilians and children. Remember Beslan? Your moral equivalence is sickening.

I'm not the one who is blaming Muslims indiscriminately. You are. That fits nicely into the definition of bigotry.

You're just upset because you've been made to look like an idiot as well as a racist.

If what you've said is true (the part I made bold), then I'd agree with you. I'd agree that there is a difference and there is no moral equivalence between such a drone attack and a terrorist attack.

I'm sceptical it is true, though. Very sceptical. The number of civilian casualties and the gung-ho nature of many American military personnel (at basically all levels) are the source of my suspicions.

However...

do you agree that if it were the case that the US launched a drone strike, fully aware of the probability of civilian casualties, it would be as morally deplorable as when Islamic extremists target civilians?

He's correct, Islam has little to do with what is happening in the same way that Catholicism had little to do with the IRA or the Holocaust....no matter how badly some people wish to believe it to be so.

Friendly Reminder

I really must caution everyone posting on this topic, this a difficult time and emotions are naturally running high, however please be careful what you post as racism, bigotry, personal attacks or any other form of discrimination will not be tolerated...so please be considered and considerate in your posting.

Thanks Guys and Gals.

So to summarise you hate when Trump is right because people will believe he is right.

When somebody warns of Islamic terrorism and then islamic terrorism kills dozens it is not fear mongering, it is rational.

"Seeing shit" doesn't give you the right to be an angry dick all the time. You probably get your jollies trying to belittle people's beliefs...

No doubt these cunts are evil and follow no rules of engagement at all. That doesn't mean children and other innocent people aren't killed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249252/Brandon-Bryant-Drone-operator-followed-orders-shoot-child--decided-quit.html
Picked Daily Mail on purpose as you guys seem to trust it

Thanks joffa.

What to you call a Left Winger that decides to get a job based on merit and become a valued member of society?









A Right Winger.

seeing shit, validates his reasoning based on what he sees and experiences...in contrast to yourself who uses vivid imagination to for example depict Merrylands /Auburn in your utopian fantasy rather than actually going there first hand and seeing it for yourself

so ironic considering the right wingers who work actually contribute taxes that get used for welfare to put food on the table for Likes of Murdoch Rags.

First victim named. A 37 year old Peruvian woman who was at the airport with her twin four year old daughters. Please apologists tell us about the westerners who've brought this on themselves.

I dont think this topic will resort to that. It's just a discussion on how to deal with these atrocities and what not. Since 2001 this has just been a circular debate.

yes

Islamic terrorism doesnt care about killing innocents. Even their own, they're all martyrs by their ideology.

Whoever said "this is what IS (Islamic State) wants" with regards to prompting the EU to halt islamic immigration needs to state their case why?
Why would Islamic State not want to spread their ideology? What are you suggesting their motive for carrying out terror attacks in France and Belgium are then? Serious question.

Overthrowing secular dictators like Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad (attempted) has only empowered Islamists and Islamist training in those regions. Inviting mass Islamic immigration into Europe over the past couple of generations has provided fertile ground for Islamists to thrive in.

Europe fought multiple wars against the Ottoman empire whose sole objective was to implement a caliphate across Europe. Places like Bosnia are a legacy of that reign of terror where europeans were forced to convert to Islam to go along to get along.

Now what can you say has changed? Nothing has changed, this is the next caliph attempt and stupid western leaders have compounded the problem by stirring up hornets nests in the middle east by facilitating Islamists to overthrow dictators that kept them under control. Now they're not only running rampant all over the middle east but flooding into Europe and being provided safe haven in Islamic enclaves that are no go zones in major European cities.



Edited by Dr Ben Carson: 23/3/2016 08:49:34 PM

i predict in 40 years an European Caliphate is a very real prospect

These attacks are in Belgium, hardly a country pushing military action in the Middle East. Theyre a response to the arrest of the Paris bomber. Thats the explaination, one of which reinforces Islams position in the 21st cent.

:lol: I did actually laugh. Youre comprehension is so bad.
I type "I am in no way saying every Muslim is a a terrorist, don't confuse that"
You type "I'm not the one who is blaming Muslims indiscriminately. You are."
And then to round out the Lols you title me a racist even tho Islam isnt racial exclusive, merely a religion/cult.
Yeah, im the idiot.=d>

Why are people afraid of being labelled an Islamaphobe that they have to use a multi on a football forum.

Gutless fucks.

-PB

Hi Far Reich

So years of first hand experience and expertise in the topic at hand, the targeting procedures used by NATO armies, is irrelevant but an unfounded and bigoted view that the American military is gung ho is acceptable. Do you apply the same principles of experience v the vibe to your doctor?

Completely wrong.

Their is nothing in Catholic or Christian theology to justify the IRA or holocaust, however the actions of ISIS in terrorism, rape, slavery, pedophilia and murder are fully justified within islamic jurisprudence, the hadiths and the Koran. ISIS go to great lengths to justify their actions by making direct links between their actions and those of their prophet.

I wonder if Turnbull will add to the Howard era fear mongering campaign, say:
"Be Alert, not alarmed (but check under the bed every night, just in case)"

Nail on the head.

I don't agree with quickflick's view but that doesn't mean mistakes don't happen and it's accepted that some innocent people may die in the fight for the cause.