This case has been investigated and the soldiers cleared every time. The problem is that every time some left wing fuckstick insist that every action by our soldiers is a war crime it undermines the faith of our soldiers that they will receive the support they deserve from the society that sent them.

In this case the soldiers were receiving fire from that location and responded to eliminate the threat. I don't know how many times you have taken sustained heavy fire in a close environment, but as someone who has I have always believed in the use of maximum firepower until there were no more efforts to kill me. The soldiers in this incident had fractions of a second to make the same decision, what makes you think that despite your complete lack of experience and training you are in a position to second guess them and call them murderers?

There has been no cover up or free pass here, the incident has been investigated too many times already. They have been cleared and should be allowed to get on with their lives rather than be subjected to an endless number of never ending inquiries.

Again you make up lies without any basis just because you hate the military. Amphetamine use?

My offer to take you to Perth so that you can call Andrew Hastie a murderer to his face still stands.

this has been investigated, reported in press for years...it not a new thing,...i don't understand, why ABC is doing another story on this .....

it not war crime to bomb a target where women and kids get killed ...

your talking shit you know nothing about

You're really not helping. Five children died. Don't they deserve justice? Or should all military personnel be exempt from scrutiny?

Calling this woman a "fat frumpy skank", a "whore" and suggesting we do things North Korean style doesn't help your cause at all.

For all I know, these soldiers had no idea that there were women and children in there. They may well just have thought an insurgent was trying to kill them and the safest way of taking him out was to throw grenades in. The may well be the case. That's just a tragedy if so.

However, if they did know, then they should have been court-martialled and gone on trial for manslaughter at the very least. It amounts to a war crime, if they were aware of who was in the room. It wouldn't be the first time military personnel have committed such atrocities. When these atrocities happen, there needs to be accountability. Any honest soldier would be horrified that atrocities be committed by the ADF and would want proper oversight. The armed forces are not beyond reproach. They sure as hell don't get an automatic let off.

The concerning thing is that evidence appears to have been suppressed. Unless lives are endangered by disclosure, there's no excuse for a lack of transparency and accountability in cases like these. That really doesn't help the notion that there hasn't been some sort of cover-up.

Just an accident. You know 'oops' like when you drop a plate or call in an helicopter air strike on a couple of kids (as our now liberal politician was involved in).

These poor blokes were obviously just minding their own business over there, maybe a little jittery after relaxing with some amphetamines. Can't blame them for that :roll: .

Edited by tsf: 15/5/2016 04:27:37 PM

I'll agree with you on all points.

Did it need a a dedicated thread however? ET is slowly delving into a political shitfest, which isn't exactly entertaining.

I'll agree with you on all points.

Did it need a a dedicated thread however? ET is slowly delving into a political shitfest, which isn't exactly entertaining.

You're really not helping. Five children died. Don't they deserve justice? Or should all military personnel be exempt from scrutiny?

Calling this woman a "fat frumpy skank", a "whore" and suggesting we do things North Korean style doesn't help your cause at all.

For all I know, these soldiers had no idea that there were women and children in there. They may well just have thought an insurgent was trying to kill them and the safest way of taking him out was to throw grenades in. The may well be the case. That's just a tragedy if so.

However, if they did know, then they should have been court-martialled and gone on trial for manslaughter at the very least. It amounts to a war crime, if they were aware of who was in the room. It wouldn't be the first time military personnel have committed such atrocities. When these atrocities happen, there needs to be accountability. Any honest soldier would be horrified that atrocities be committed by the ADF and would want proper oversight. The armed forces are not beyond reproach. They sure as hell don't get an automatic let off.

The concerning thing is that evidence appears to have been suppressed. Unless lives are endangered by disclosure, there's no excuse for a lack of transparency and accountability in cases like these. That really doesn't help the notion that there hasn't been some sort of cover-up.

Because civilians never murder people and get on with there lives.

what i'm saying is...if they knew they was there, they wouldn't have thrown them...but what people don't understand, war can't be zero risk, there no such thing

the thing is, these guys came back to there normal job after a 6 month tour ...so the idea that they deliberately thrown in grenades at women and children, and then come back to normal jobs in Melbourne and Sydney and work as doctor , lawyer and Police is just crazy to think like this

Because Australian Story are doing a special on it which will be broadcast soon.

"..the idea that they threw grenades into a room knowing there many women and child there is just crazy "

Do you mean they're crazy for throwing grenades in with the knowledge that women and children were there? Or that it's crazy to the point of implausible that they would have thrown in grenades with the knowledge that women and children were there?

You're really not helping. Five children died. Don't they deserve justice? Or should all military personnel be exempt from scrutiny?

Calling this woman a "fat frumpy skank", a "whore" and suggesting we do things North Korean style doesn't help your cause at all.

For all I know, these soldiers had no idea that there were women and children in there. They may well just have thought an insurgent was trying to kill them and the safest way of taking him out was to throw grenades in. The may well be the case. That's just a tragedy if so.

However, if they did know, then they should have been court-martialled and gone on trial for manslaughter at the very least. It amounts to a war crime, if they were aware of who was in the room. It wouldn't be the first time military personnel have committed such atrocities. When these atrocities happen, there needs to be accountability. Any honest soldier would be horrified that atrocities be committed by the ADF and would want proper oversight. The armed forces are not beyond reproach. They sure as hell don't get an automatic let off.

The concerning thing is that evidence appears to have been suppressed. Unless lives are endangered by disclosure, there's no excuse for a lack of transparency and accountability in cases like these. That really doesn't help the notion that there hasn't been some sort of cover-up.

Some fat frumpy skank who can't even get a legal military haircut and has never fired a shot in anger makes a call from the safety of thousands of miles and several years just to get her name in the newspaper. This whore should have been shot as a traitor.

this is really old...and don't understand why it still be talk about

this is Reserve commandos , this mean most of the guy in this unit have normal job, Doctors, a lot of police men , lawyers ..the idea that they threw grenades into a room knowing there many women and child there is just crazy



Edited by adrtho: 15/5/2016 04:23:37 AM

The former director of military prosecutions says she charged two Australian commandos after the deaths of five Afghan children because the soldiers threw grenades into a room knowing the victims were inside — a claim soldiers strongly deny.

The allegations revealed in a newly released government document reignite questions about the deaths of the children and man in a February 2009 raid by Australian forces that went horribly wrong in Oruzgan province.

Two Reserve commandos — a sergeant and a lance corporal — were charged with manslaughter over the raid by the former director of military prosecutions, Brigadier Lyn McDade.

The charging of the men sent shockwaves through the Australian Defence Force (ADF).

Subsequently, the charges were dismissed prior to a court martial, but the case remains one of the most controversial chapters in Australian military history.

The new allegations are documented in a memorandum dated September 23, 2011, which was sent by Brigadier McDade to former defence minister Stephen Smith after the minister asked the brigadier for a full account of the failure of the charges against the men.

It surfaced as a result of an investigation by Australian Story and was obtained under Freedom of Information legislation.

Soldiers 'knew for certain' about women and children: prosecutor

For the first time, the document sheds light on the basis for the former director of military prosecutions' decision to lay charges against the men.

The two soldiers charged with manslaughter were identified as Sergeant J, who gave the order to detonate two grenades, and Lance Corporal D, who threw both grenades.

Brigadier McDade details what she described as "the fundamental issue" that underpinned her decision to lay charges against the two soldiers.

"They chose to deploy grenades, an indiscriminate weapons system, into a very confined space, when they ought to have known, and during the attack knew for certain, that women and children were present," she said.

Brigadier McDade says that after the first grenade detonated "… the evidence discloses that Sergeant J and Lance Corporal D knew for certain that there were women and children in the room. They both provided statements to the inquiry officer to this effect; specifically that they could hear the women and children screaming from inside the room."

Lance corporal rejects prosecutor's claims

The brigadier's account is denied by Lance Corporal D, who has told Australian Story: "I absolutely refute the submission made by Brigadier McDade that we were certain of women and children in the room.

"There was a great deal of noise.

"We didn't believe there would be any women and children in that room for two reasons, that being that we had already found who we believed to be the family living in that compound and removed them from an earlier room. And, secondly, that we were now receiving gunfire from that room and we believed that we had found the insurgents that we had been told were staying there."

His barrister Jonathan Hyde also disputed Brigadier McDade's assertions.

"I read all the statements made by Lance Corporal D and did not see anything in which he said that he knew for certainty that there were women and children in the room," Mr Hyde said.

"The assertion that Lance Corporal D knew with certainty that there were women and children in the room before or during when grenades were used is wrong.

"Lance Corporal D did not know there were women and children in the room until after the shooting stopped and he entered the room.

"The only thing that he knew for certain in those chaotic moments was that there was someone in the room firing an automatic weapon at him and his fellow soldiers."

Based on statements that Brigadier McDade says were given by the soldiers to an inquiry officer, she also alleges that on hearing the cries of women and children a non-commissioned officer countermanded the order to fire a machine gun into the darkened room.

She does not provide specific details or the timing of this countermanding order.

Questions raised over secretive ADF investigation

In the exclusive two-part Australian Story program, Lance Corporal D and other soldiers directly involved in the action detail their accounts of events for the first time.

The program also raises many serious questions still to be addressed by the ADF.

The ADF's investigation has been criticised for never speaking with members of the Afghan family who survived the raid.

In her submission to the minister, Brigadier McDade details that an Afghan male killed in the raid was subsequently revealed as Amrullah Khan, who on the weight of evidence was "not an insurgent but an Afghan national defending his home and his family from attack".

The ADF has differed in its description of Khan in many of its statements, referring to him first as an "insurgent", then a "suspected insurgent" and later as "an Afghan fighting male".

The actions of the commandos and the reason behind the raid have been shrouded in secrecy by the ADF.

Many of the documents, including statements made by soldiers involved in the raid, have been classified as SECRET: AUSTEO (Australian Eyes Only) and others have been suppressed by court order.

Without the release of these documents, verification of all accounts remains difficult.

Although the then-chief of defence Sir Angus Houston gave a commitment to give a full account of the incident to the public when the inquiries and court martial were completed, the ADF never told the whole story of the events of that fateful night, including details of whether or not the raid was properly authorised.

A third soldier, Lieutenant Colonel M, the commander who authorised the raid from Kandahar, was also charged with failing to comply with an order and prejudicial conduct.

Why charges against officer were dropped

Equally controversial in the memorandum to the then-defence minister Mr Smith is Brigadier McDade's account of why charges against this officer were dropped.

The raiding party had set out to capture or kill a senior Taliban leader and, drawing a blank in the first compound they entered, they then moved to a second compound.

These compound raids were subject to mandatory regulations drawn up by International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), the international coalition fighting in Afghanistan, after consultation with the Afghan government amidst mounting concern over civilian deaths in the long-running war.

Based on evidence provided to Defence investigators, Brigadier McDade alleged that Lieutenant Colonel M was in breach of the mandatory ISAF Standard Operating Procedure 309, which regulated the circumstances in which coalition forces may enter compounds. These operating procedures, she says, were designed to ensure that innocent Afghan nationals in their homes were not wrongly targeted.

However, Brigadier McDade says she decided not to proceed with the prosecution of Lieutenant Colonel M after a number of senior officers provided evidence to their Defence counsel that varied from the statements first collected from them by the ADF Investigation Service (ADFIS).

The ADF has never provided an account of why the second compound was raided.

Australian Story's two-part investigation, The Line Of Fire, begins on Monday, May 23 and concludes on May 30. It will air on ABC TV at 8pm.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-14/new-controversy-about-australian-commando-role-in-child-deaths/7414290