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The SA Gov has suggested creating new nuclear industry, beginning with the storage of foreign nuclear waste, but will only do so with public support. I am tentatively in favor as the state needs the income we are well placed to address the need for safe storage. This would have implications for other states, possibly creating the opportunity for reactors in the eastern states. Thoughts?? Royal Commission wrote:South Australia can safely increase its participation in nuclear activities. Such participation brings social, environmental, safety and financial risks. The state is already managing some of these risks, and the remainder are manageable. Some new nuclear fuel cycle activities are viable. One in particular, the disposal of international used fuel and intermediate level waste, could provide significant and enduring economic benefits to the South Australian community. Viability analysis undertaken for the Commission determined that a waste disposal facility could generate more than $100 billion income in excess of expenditure (including a $32 billion reserve fund for facility closure and ongoing monitoring) over the 120-year life of the project (or $51 billion discounted at 4 per cent). Given the significance of the potential revenue and the extended project timeframes, the Commission has found that were such a project to proceed, it must be owned and controlled by the state government, and that the wealth generated should be preserved and equitably shared for current and future generations of South Australians. This presents an opportunity that should be pursued. Social consent is fundamental to undertaking any new nuclear project. Social consent requires sufficient public support in South Australia to proceed with legislating, planning and implementing a project. Local community consent is required to host a facility. In the event that this involves regional, remote and Aboriginal communities, consent processes must account for their particular values and concerns. Political bipartisanship and stable government policy are also essential. This is particularly important given the long-term operation of facilities and the need for certainty for potential client nations.
There is a range of complex and important steps that would need to be taken to progress such a proposal. The Commission has therefore recommended that the South Australian Government pursue the opportunity to establish used nuclear fuel and intermediate level waste storage and disposal facilities in South Australia consistent with the process and principles outlined in Chapter 10 of this report. This includes suggested immediate steps, and those that may arise in the future.
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mcjules
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I'm open to the idea because we need the revenue but want to read a bit more about the environmental and economic impact. $51 billion over 120 years doesn't sound that great though.
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mcjules
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It's probably the first thing I've cared enough about to post on YourSay as well :)
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy.
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mcjules
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Agree with all of that. Running a reactor here for power would be ridiculous. Is there a case for enriching the uranium that's mined here for use as fuel before selling it? Maybe. Is there a case to pick a remote area that's very stable geologically to store intermediate waste? Probably. From pure revenue terms for the government, $500 million a year doesn't sound like much but obviously there are some other economic benefits in terms of employment and business stimulus.
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Conservative
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:[size=8]Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors[/size] - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. que?
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AzzaMarch
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. The purpose would not be to store our own nuclear waste, nor does it involve SA building a nuclear reactor. It is storage of nuclear waste from elsewhere, in and of itself. Nuclear waste exists, it needs to be stored somewhere. From what I have read, SA is well suited from a geological perspective. So I am cautiously in favour of it. Edited by AzzaMarch: 27/5/2016 12:33:54 PM
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BETHFC
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I remember a story about such a facility in New Mexico USA where the leakage of 1 barrel of waste essentially rendered a $19bn facility useless. The wrong type of kitty litter was blamed. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_PlantCan the government assure us that this sort of incident will not occur again? It's a massive cost outlay.
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commission wrote:The Commission has found that commercial electricity generation from nuclear fuels is not viable in South Australia under current market rules. However, it has found that nuclear energy has the potential to contribute to national emissions abatement after 2030. Given the need for significant decarbonisation of our electricity sector to meet future emissions reduction goals, the Commission has recommended the development of a comprehensive national energy policy, which enables all technologies, including nuclear, to contribute to a reliable, low-carbon electricity network at the lowest possible system cost. Generation may never happen in SA, depending how the technology progresses (smaller reactors, less reliance on water/ coastal location) and carbon price/ targets.
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canonical
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BETHFC wrote:I remember a story about such a facility in New Mexico USA where the leakage of 1 barrel of waste essentially rendered a $19bn facility useless. The wrong type of kitty litter was blamed. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_PlantCan the government assure us that this sort of incident will not occur again? It's a massive cost outlay. Quote:The operation of the WIPP facility in New Mexico is currently suspended following an accident in February 2014. The accident was caused by a failure to follow strict protocols in packing a waste drum. Incompatible materials were packed together, which caused a chemical reaction that opened the lid of the drum. The accident resulted in the exposure of 21 employees to small doses of radiation (equivalent to a chest x-ray) following its release to the environment. It is planned to reopen in late 2016. Given the different type of waste disposed of at Asse and WIPP, neither of these examples has direct technical relevance to the storage and disposal of used fuel. However, they are salient reminders that, despite broad international scientific consensus that geological disposal of used fuel can be achieved safely, it can also be implemented poorly. Nothing is ever 100% safe.
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Soft News
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mcjules wrote:I'm open to the idea because we need the revenue but want to read a bit more about the environmental and economic impact. $51 billion over 120 years doesn't sound that great though. 500 million a year for barrels sitting 1 km below ground is not bad going. Plenty of road projects can be funded with that sort of annual intake
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:[size=8]Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors[/size] - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. que? I was waiting for someone to question this (see I know these things in advance). From the initial mining, to processing to use, it results in significant carbon dioxide output. The processing is the worst stage. An article was written it on The Conversation about 2 years ago.
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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AzzaMarch wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. The purpose would not be to store our own nuclear waste, nor does it involve SA building a nuclear reactor. It is storage of nuclear waste from elsewhere, in and of itself. Nuclear waste exists, it needs to be stored somewhere. From what I have read, SA is well suited from a geological perspective. So I am cautiously in favour of it. Edited by AzzaMarch: 27/5/2016 12:33:54 PM The initial post mentioned building nuclear reactors
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AzzaMarch
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. The purpose would not be to store our own nuclear waste, nor does it involve SA building a nuclear reactor. It is storage of nuclear waste from elsewhere, in and of itself. Nuclear waste exists, it needs to be stored somewhere. From what I have read, SA is well suited from a geological perspective. So I am cautiously in favour of it. Edited by AzzaMarch: 27/5/2016 12:33:54 PM The initial post mentioned building nuclear reactors Not in SA though. It's just that having a storage location enables a ramping up production in Australia if wanted. Overall I tend to agree that the cost of renewables is becoming price competitive far earlier than expected. Also, that with innovations like Tesla's Power Wall, we are likely to end up not requiring a "grid" as such, with production and storage to occur at the street/house level, in due time. Nonetheless, there is a lot of existing nuclear waste that will still need storage, and SA can take advantage of this.
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mcjules
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Soft News wrote:mcjules wrote:I'm open to the idea because we need the revenue but want to read a bit more about the environmental and economic impact. $51 billion over 120 years doesn't sound that great though. 500 million a year for barrels sitting 1 km below ground is not bad going. Plenty of road projects can be funded with that sort of annual intake That's true and it probably will give the state a bigger cash injection earlier that we need to transform our economy in the near term and then trail off a bit later. Edited by mcjules: 27/5/2016 05:28:53 PM
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Conservative
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:[size=8]Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors[/size] - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. que? I was waiting for someone to question this (see I know these things in advance). From the initial mining, to processing to use, it results in significant carbon dioxide output. The processing is the worst stage. An article was written it on The Conversation about 2 years ago. Breathing results in carbon dioxide output. It doesn't mean its excessive. In some cases around here though I wonder. Has The Conversation been peer reviewed for accuracy?
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:[size=8]Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors[/size] - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. que? I was waiting for someone to question this (see I know these things in advance). From the initial mining, to processing to use, it results in significant carbon dioxide output. The processing is the worst stage. An article was written it on The Conversation about 2 years ago. Breathing results in carbon dioxide output. It doesn't mean its excessive. In some cases around here though I wonder. Has The Conversation been peer reviewed for accuracy? Nah, but I've heard that all of the media in Murdoch's empire has Edited by Murdoch Rags Ltd: 27/5/2016 07:20:06 PM
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Conservative
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Conservative wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:[size=8]Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors[/size] - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. que? I was waiting for someone to question this (see I know these things in advance). From the initial mining, to processing to use, it results in significant carbon dioxide output. The processing is the worst stage. An article was written it on The Conversation about 2 years ago. Breathing results in carbon dioxide output. It doesn't mean its excessive. In some cases around here though I wonder. Has The Conversation been peer reviewed for accuracy? Nah, but I've heard that all of the media in Murdoch's empire has Edited by Murdoch Rags Ltd: 27/5/2016 07:20:06 PM This is relevant because?
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lukerobinho
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Also far ahead in electricity prices and highest unemployment in the country. but but progress right ?
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Crusader
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact.
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. Typical right winger needing to sing from the science denying song sheet of his illiterate overlords. Is self education not possible for you people? There are already instances where solar & wind have provided 100% of base load power for a state & country's requirements, sometimes for a period of more than a day. Portugal is a very recent example. Areas in Germany have had days where there has been close to 100%. With battery storage, this will become significantly accelerated. But see, because you're a right winger, you struggle to grasp the future. You simply state "but where's it happening now". Such simplicity goes some way to explaining why you vote right wing. That's why you need slogans like 'Stop The Boats', 'Jobs & Growth' - cognitive bite size pieces. Gotta keep it to a few words with you righties; it's an attention span thing. The eyes glaze over fairly readily.....
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Conservative
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No one is ever wrong on an internet forum. Such narcissism in the milliennial generation prevents meaningful discussion on any topic.
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AzzaMarch
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Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. I would have agreed with this point in the past. However, with such developments as the Tesla Power Wall and the like, this seems like it will become much less of an issue in future. I think it is reasonable to think that we aren't too far from a point where a large proportion of "baseload" power will be generated and used at the household level. The grid will only be needed when there is a surge in use, or extended periods of low sunlight etc.
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BETHFC
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AzzaMarch wrote:Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. I would have agreed with this point in the past. However, with such developments as the Tesla Power Wall and the like, this seems like it will become much less of an issue in future. I think it is reasonable to think that we aren't too far from a point where a large proportion of "baseload" power will be generated and used at the household level. The grid will only be needed when there is a surge in use, or extended periods of low sunlight etc. Bingo. I think all new houses should be built with solar panels (along with water tanks while we're at it). In all honesty, what difference to the price of a home is 6-8k going to make? The biggest annoyance for me is regulating the size of panels you can have. If someone wants to actually sell power back to the grid, why stop them?
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AzzaMarch
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BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. I would have agreed with this point in the past. However, with such developments as the Tesla Power Wall and the like, this seems like it will become much less of an issue in future. I think it is reasonable to think that we aren't too far from a point where a large proportion of "baseload" power will be generated and used at the household level. The grid will only be needed when there is a surge in use, or extended periods of low sunlight etc. Bingo. I think all new houses should be built with solar panels (along with water tanks while we're at it). In all honesty, what difference to the price of a home is 6-8k going to make? The biggest annoyance for me is regulating the size of panels you can have. If someone wants to actually sell power back to the grid, why stop them? True - but that problem itself will be eliminated with the battery storage capability now coming out such as the Tesla Power Wall. The "grid" itself will become less relevant once you can store excess power generation locally.
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BETHFC
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AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. I would have agreed with this point in the past. However, with such developments as the Tesla Power Wall and the like, this seems like it will become much less of an issue in future. I think it is reasonable to think that we aren't too far from a point where a large proportion of "baseload" power will be generated and used at the household level. The grid will only be needed when there is a surge in use, or extended periods of low sunlight etc. Bingo. I think all new houses should be built with solar panels (along with water tanks while we're at it). In all honesty, what difference to the price of a home is 6-8k going to make? The biggest annoyance for me is regulating the size of panels you can have. If someone wants to actually sell power back to the grid, why stop them? True - but that problem itself will be eliminated with the battery storage capability now coming out such as the Tesla Power Wall. The "grid" itself will become less relevant once you can store excess power generation locally. Do you know of a reason why they regulate the number of solar panels you can have? Is it safety issues with current and former energy storage devices?
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mcjules
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BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:Crusader wrote:Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:Apart from the carbon intensive nature of nuclear reactors - from the point of mining uranium, to its processing for usability and subsequent use, nuclear reactors take 10+ years to commission. Additionally, in a market of plummeting battery storage, solar panel & wind turbine manufacturing & use costs, nuclear is not economically viable. By the time a nuclear reactor was up & running in South Australia, it would have already been getting 100% daily power from wind & solar. SA is way ahead of the rest of Australia in renewable energy. Solar and wind have never had that level of success anywhere and will never provide 100% power for any part of Australia. Both still require proper energy generation sources to guarantee base load power. Stop passing your wacko religious beliefs off as fact. I would have agreed with this point in the past. However, with such developments as the Tesla Power Wall and the like, this seems like it will become much less of an issue in future. I think it is reasonable to think that we aren't too far from a point where a large proportion of "baseload" power will be generated and used at the household level. The grid will only be needed when there is a surge in use, or extended periods of low sunlight etc. Bingo. I think all new houses should be built with solar panels (along with water tanks while we're at it). In all honesty, what difference to the price of a home is 6-8k going to make? The biggest annoyance for me is regulating the size of panels you can have. If someone wants to actually sell power back to the grid, why stop them? True - but that problem itself will be eliminated with the battery storage capability now coming out such as the Tesla Power Wall. The "grid" itself will become less relevant once you can store excess power generation locally. Do you know of a reason why they regulate the number of solar panels you can have? Is it safety issues with current and former energy storage devices? I'm not sure on the answer to this but I just wanted to add to that the "internet of things" revolution is building. Imagine every house running smart meters that are streaming data about a premises' usage back to a repository (this is already happening, I got a letter the other day offering to upgrade me to one for free). With that, battery and meter providers can provide software that hooks into APIs to detect demand locally and sell electricity back to the grid when it's most needed, smoothing out demand. As someone that works on this sort of stuff for a living, it's quite exciting :lol:
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Murdoch Rags Ltd
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There is no way, in a gazillion years, that with the highest per capita uptake of rooftop solar in the world & plummeting wind, solar & battery infrastructure costs, that Australians would support a nuclear plant. Sorry right wingers, in this instance you can't destroy the great barrier reef as quickly as you would like
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