I've alawys said the 2nd Division needs to come first then expansion.
Plenty of reasons why but at a $$$ level the capital cost of entry into the A-League is to high.
Starting in a 2nd Division makes financial sense allowing Clubs the opportunity to develop their business and iron out any issues that a new business always has.

a 2nd Division is real  Expansion

Expanding the Only Division is just Distraction

I just don't see a second division happening anytime in the near future ... when expansion is a lot simpler (and plenty of potential suitors out there already). Financially a second division makes very little sense ... hence why it has NEVER happened in Australia before. A second division has to be made from a football perspective not a financial / market perspective (that is why FFA have not started a second division).

Let me ask South Melbourne (or Wolves, Canberra, Southern Sydney, Tasmania, Brisbane Stikers, GCC etc.) fans ... would you rather be part of the national A-League that could be set up to let you in next season (or two)? Or hold out to see if / when / how a second division that may or may not have P/R with no financial security with most likely no (national) broadcast deal? There are inherit risks with both ... one you may sink, the other you may never get afloat.

As a fan and an owner thats an easy question.

For roughly the same cost as 2 new A-League teams they could bring in 8 team second division. Run it like they did when the A League was first set up. More content for Foxtel. More markets, more interest without having to pay as much for it. More excitement.

Cost to who?? It would cost the FFA / A-League board next to nothing to put in 2 new teams, and provide a bigger market (would more people watch South etc. in the A-League or a second division?), more TV deal right powers, greater advertising and sponsorship revenue.

I think they (FFA would have to fork the bill for a new division from all accounts) would have to pay a lot more for a second division, mainly because there would be considerably less revenue and would have to pour in startup capital to get it off the ground (you'd have to market it separately to the A-League too, so would need a separate budget for that). It would cost the clubs less but could they offset their increased costs (travel and player wages) with little extra revenue (because how much money is really going to poured into a secondary division with low appeal, marketability, potential no P/R, no broadcast deal ...). Pretty much you'd have the NPL set up, and already most people complain about junior / academy fees being used to subsidise player payments ... where do these NPL clubs get increased revenue to cover travel and player wages?? Does the FFA cover those bills??

"We Straya no pro rel here."

This is a common argument. The one that NRL and AFL don't have it (either). NSWRL & VFL destroyed Qld, WA and SA leagues for their own gains. They may have had it but chose to be greedy.

Trying to dig out my previous workings, but if all the FFA covered was just travel costs it would cost about $2M per season for the whole 2nd Div.  Keep the other base costs the same as the current NPL clubs.  The 2nd Div to comprise champs from each state and then allow P&R up and down between the bottom of the 2nd Div and the National NPL Champ to wash out the weaker states over time.  Much like between the National League and NLN and NLS but limited to one club, the National NPL Champ in this instance.

"It would cost the FFA board next to nothing to put in 2 new teams" 
Presumably because they are using the Foxtel money. What I'm saying is take that same Foxtel money and use it to fund the second division. 

Top division will have greater investment obviously. By having a second division, you are giving 18 clubs a chance at unlocking that investment potential rather than just 10-12. The bottom clubs will invest more in order to reach that higher level. 

Some figures that have floated around: 
-PFA estimated $10m to administer a second division. (That is their proposed 16 team model*) 
-Scottish FA does the same job for $5m.  

Aside from administering the game, the burden of start up capital should be coming from the clubs. If they want to be apart of the game, they have to prove they are willing to make the necessary investments to buy into the game. I think we are up to something like 11 separate groups wanting to invest in a team. 

I see no reason why the second division would have to be marketed separately. I'm fairly sure the Bundesliga is marketed as one product by the same broadcaster. At least they use the same logo etc. 

There would have to be a broadcast deal, but it could easily be a simple camera set up the same way the FFA Cup operates. Rather than all the matches going live, one per week, or have a red button type situation going for all the games at once + highlights package. International breaks give second division opportunity to have full round of matches televised. BUT the division would also have greater sponsorship opportunities given it is a national division. 

*While I agree with everyone on this forum that wants an open pyramid, I would be willing to compromise. I reckon the second division should start small the same way the A League did. 8 clubs, biggest NPL clubs that have a strong base (e.g. Wollongong/Sth Melbourne) + some new clubs (i.e. Canberra, Geelong)

We could go on all day. My point is that there is money out there, but the way we are using it isn't right and of course none of the above is realistic unless we start changing things. If the current model continues, I agree, expansion is probably the best way forward. But the model should change. 

2 new franchises are band aids. We dumped 3 of the worst performing teams and added WSW and we are still stagnate and worse off.

1. 2 more mid-table teams
2. Finals prospects gone even earlier for the bottom 2

“We are excited to announce our exciting, innovative business strategy of an 8 team finals series that brings us in line with AFL/NRL and that we know all the consumers in our target markets and key demographics will be right behind”

This is the critical issue with a 2nd division, that I don't think gets mentioned enough.
If (when?) there is a 2nd division, it needs to be still included in the A-League branding/advertising, rather than treated as a separate entity.

What's Australia never having had a second division got to do with anything?  If we had and it hadn't worked, you'd use that as an example for why we're not ready.

I disagree strongly with the assertion that expansion needs to happen first.  Expanding the A-League in isolation is very short-sited and lacks any sort of ambition. Not to mention it addresses very few of the issues in Australian football and even makes some worse.

This isn't related to the argument, but you couldn't be more wrong about NQF and Gold Coast City.  Fury are dead, replaced by North Qld United in the NPL.  And Palm Beach (who held the NPL license for Gold Coast City) have withdrawn support and so Gold Coast City are no longer in the Qld NPL either (I don't think they have any clubs at all at this point). 

Tashiro connection helps Wolves sign Nozawa

New arrival Takuya Nozawa says helping the Wollongong Wolves fulfil their A-League dream while playing alongside former teammate Yuzo Tashiro, influenced his decision to join the club.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5231727/tashiro-connection-helps-wolves-sign-nozawa/

This all of this.

Expansion is a failure.

A league serves a useful purpose in providing a reasonable level of play on our home soil as well as giving mainstream attention to the game

But the a league is super expensive because Australia has a high threshold for the mainstream market and high quality leagues usually cost a fortune

A second division is crucial for covering all the bases the a league can't like providing more player pathways. It can be much cheaper than expansion because the only criteria for success in my books is if they increase the number of full time players.

Some are frustrated that we dont have p and r without a salary cap like other countries.

But consider the country most like us. Canada is also a country with a similar population and GDP. Most of Canada is uninhabitable like australia. It is very spread out and highly urbanized. Football is not one of the major sporting codes but a lot of juniors play the game. In other words Canada is very similar to us. How is the health of football there compared to here?

Even in this is a bad year for the a league what the a league has done in getting plausible quality on a shoestring budget and 10k+ crowds is quite frankly remarkable.

I really hope we get a 2nd division and if we do football will never have been in a better state if we could just take a moment to enjoy it

Canadian Premier League: An Introduction & Latest News
POSTED ON DECEMBER 11, 2017 BY GARETH WOLFF


Proposed Halifax Stadium (CPL)
Almost seven months ago, Canada Soccer confirmed that the country would be getting its own professional soccer league, the Canadian Premier League. Led by ownership groups in Hamilton, Ontario, and Winnipeg, Manitoba, the CPL will be a blend of teams linked to Canadian Football League (CFL) clubs, playing out of CFL stadiums, and combined with teams in pop-up stadiums seating a few thousand fans.

The big question, of course, is when the first ball will be kicked. It’s all gone a bit quiet since Paul Beirne (the league’s first-ever employee) promised an announcement in “60-90 days” at the beginning of October.

1. on timing of an official #CanPL announcement pic.twitter.com/aWF0eQT1AI

— James Covey FC (@ASCovey) October 6, 2017

Previously, the idea of a “soft launch” with six teams in 2018 had been suggested, followed by a full season with 8-10 teams in 2019. The idea would be to ride the bandwagon of soccer interest in the wake of the 2018 World Cup in Russia. That soft launch seems increasingly less likely as the days pass with no announcement, and with the league’s flagship team in Hamilton potentially mired in municipal politics, leaving 2019 as a more likely launch date.

Here’s a round-up of some of the latest news on the CPL.

Metro Vancouver Joins the Hunt

Metro Vancouver is the latest city to join the hunt for a CPL team. An ownership group that was previously rumored to be bringing a team to the Fraser Valley is reportedly looking at putting a team in Surrey, BC. The ownership group has reportedly submitted a proposal to the City of Surrey, including developing a soccer-specific stadium.

In possibly related news, a Vancouver-based organization called “SixFive Sports & Entertainment Inc.” has trademarked “BCFC”. British Columbia FC, anyone? Here’s hoping the CPL won’t be going the MLS route of “Generic FC” and “Generic United” for every team.

Ottawa Interested?

While the Canadian MLS teams aren’t going anywhere at the moment, the other remaining Canadian pro team could be on the verge of making the jump to the CPL. Ottawa Fury, currently playing the USL on a year-to-year agreement, are reportedly monitoring league developments, with the blessing of USL President Jake Edwards.

Meanwhile, FC Edmonton, who recently left the NASL and discontinued professional franchise operations, were attending CPL meetings prior to folding. Edmonton is a likely candidate city for a CPL team, although FC Edmonton co-owner Tom Fath gave a concerning interview about the state of the game in the city.

Fath’s statements raise some worrying questions about the long-term sustainability of the league in terms of the level of fan and corporate support. His comments also open the door for other ownership groups in the city.

#ProRelforCanada?

Back in early October, Paul Beirne gave some insight into the league’s plans, including mentioning that 60-90 day timeline. Several key points were raised, such as confirmation that the CPL will be Canada’s D1, and that the league has no intention of being an MLS development league (although loan moves between the two leagues are an option.

The one that’ll please the purists, however, was confirmation that the CPL is open to having multiple divisions with promotion and relegation.

4. lastly, on what he learned from working at Brighton, and on European leagues as models pic.twitter.com/jtyqAqRddb

— James Covey FC (@ASCovey) October 6, 2017

The whole interview with Beirne is worth a read, by the way.

South of the border, the argument about promotion and relegation continues to rage—lack of pro/rel being blamed for everything from the NASL potentially folding to the USMNT missing the World Cup. Canada may be side-stepping that discussion. With a planned six to eight teams for the league’s launch, however, there is a long way to go before multiple divisions can even be considered.

Does MLS See CPL as a threat?

On October 2nd, MLS announced the opening of a Canadian office and the hiring of a general manager of MLS Canada.

Don Garber has been courting the Canadian markets more heavily than normal this year. He attended a season launch party in Vancouver. He also apparently tried to help subsidize the signing of Atiba Hutchinson as a Canadian DP and relaxed the rules on Canadian players counting as domestic players on US teams (although only for homegrowns). The timing could be a coincidence, or MLS could finally be paying attention to Canada as a reaction to the CPL threatening its dominance.

Rumoured Teams

As well as Hamilton and Winnipeg, the two confirmed teams, other cities that seem likely to be awarded teams include Halifax, Moncton, and Regina. Ottawa also seems probable, although they might wait to see how the first season goes.

Other markets showing different levels of interest in the league include Surrey/Fraser Valley, Mississauga, Kitchener-Waterloo, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Victoria, Calgary, and Quebec City.

Here are some places to find more information and keep up to date on this fledgling Canadian league:

Rumour round-up site
Another site for news and rumours
The CPL’s official website
Sub-reddit for the league
As we head towards the end of that 60-90 day period, hopefully, some big announcements are on the horizon.

https://www.freekicksreport.com/2017/12/11/canadian-premier-league-update/

Great find aussie Scott!

WHEN Western Sydney Wanderers star Michael Thwaite netted his first ever goal for the club in their 4-0 smashing of Wellington Phoenix, he wheeled out his go-to celebration.

In doing so, he brought attention to one of Australia’s most under discussed grassroots footballing issues.

The 34-year-old hails from northern Queensland, more specifically Cairns, and is the latest in a line of footballing talents from the region which also includes Frank Farina, Steve Corica and more.

But with the price of playing football rising steadily and the difficulty of regional youth to depart their hometowns remaining, an increasingly large amount of footballing talent is being lost to the game.

Michael Thwaite celebrates his first goal for the Wanderers
Michael Thwaite celebrates his first goal for the WanderersPicture: AAP
However, the former Socceroo has already begun to put in place plans to make a difference in the region when he eventually hands up his boots.

“I grew up there since I was two years old, and if I didn’t move to Sydney down south and go to university and start playing here in Sydney I probably would’ve remained a high school teacher in Cairns,” Thwaite told Foxsports.com.au.
“The regional areas do suffer even more so because the lack of coaching, the lack of teams there. I guess one benefit is the NPL competitions help those competitions a lot.”

“It’s costing the children a lot of money they’re paying between 2 and 3 thousand dollars from under 12s. For me to pay that as a youngster I wouldn’t have been able to play – and that’s one thing I do want to change when I go back.”

Thwaite’s celebration, which was a homage to dance moves taught to him by Aboriginal community group Tjapukai during his school days, drew attention to his Cairns roots – a heritage which he is incredibly proud of and one which he is keen to return to at the conclusion of his career.

Western Sydney Wanderers player Michael Thwaite
Western Sydney Wanderers player Michael ThwaitePicture: AAP
But in doing so, the centre-back is ready to make a difference by giving young prospects the chance to hone their skills without the usual attached monetary cost.

“I want to go to those rural areas that gave me so much even west of Cairns and even further all the way up Queensland and give them that opportunity where they can get high quality coaching without having to pay anything,” he said.

“I’ve actually started up a mentoring company called that’s football and that will be my aim to help with that transition into professional sport.”

Thwaite cited a lack of talent from his local area breaking through, despite an extensive history of top class talent stemming from the region in the past.

“When I grew up, my idol was Frank Farina, players like Steve Corica, Zenon Caravella, Wayne Srhoj but then it stops there, there’s no other players that are coming through and there’s honestly a 10 year gap probably so we want to see more players from there’s regional areas getting an opportunity.”

Michael Thwaite hosted a miniroos Gala Day at Werrington. Pictured is Mitchell Atkin 4 showing Thwaite some skills.
Michael Thwaite hosted a miniroos Gala Day at Werrington. Pictured is Mitchell Atkin 4 showing Thwaite some skills.Picture: News Corp Australia
The Wanderers star also pointed towards the FFA Cup as a great platform for regional clubs, and detailed the need for A-League expansion in order to extend more chances to young players.

“The FFA Cup that’s a good feel for those regional areas because top clubs in Australia have to go to those regional areas to their home stadiums, their home crowds and play in front of them. In saying that, there’s a massive talking point about expansion and that needs to happen sooner rather than later,” he said.

“To even get another Queensland team up and running in such a big state and also more teams down south to give players more of an opportunity, and not only players but coaches, administration – everything that comes with a new club right down to the grassroots.”

“If I didn’t move south, which a lot of the players that have potential they need to do that, they either move to Brisbane or further south. If I didn’t do that, honestly I’d probably finish my teaching degree and become a teacher in Cairns. Not a lot of people get out of Cairns when they grow up.”

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/soccer/michael-thwaite-on-cairns-grassroots-football-plight-gombaus-style-and-ikonomidis-ng-425dba6b0ff591e21e51e0d8a84abf84

Video clip with FIFA president

"The league system...the closed league... (is a) challenge that has to be tackled."

- FIFA President Gianni Infantino


http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22437590

Poor Gianni doesn't seem to realise that Carlos Cordeiro truly is to US Soccer what Lowy and Gallop are to us - there'll be no reform in his watch 'cos it's not in his personal interests to have it happen😠

Ho could help by bannning anyone with Closed Leagues from World Cup Bidding 

Taking their money and rejecting their bids is both efficient and effective, just quietly.

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/article/2018/02/19/aafc-push-national-second-tier-fifa-afc

Today it takes a lot to surprise me about FFA .... but this has ... 

 gobsmacked, surreal, you gotta be kidding and whatever other words can be applied...

TWG in the above link had a line I just can't fathom its simply unbelievable but in line with what some posters have been suggesting...

How is this,  what after ... what ... how long ...

"""""""""FFA chief executive David Gallop warned there would almost certainly be no resolution struck this week.

"This visit is more about establishing a process ... to really look at what everyone recognises as the way forward, which is a bigger congress. It won't be overnight in moving to that," Gallop told 2GB Radio."""""""""""""

I think just one more quotation mark would have gotten your point across more effectively

Why does the AAFC require everyone to pay a fee of $10,000 just to see the bid document?

Extortion.

Why has that gobsmacked you Mid?  Its what the FIFA/AFC visit is for.  It is to discuss the issues with stakeholders and then write a brief for and establish the congress review working group.

Its to pay the consultants that they have engaged to select the successful bidders. (and to establish a slush fund)