The Super Rugby model, over half the revenue the Australian clubs earn is coming from overseas, but those clubs aren't exactly prospering.

Also, as a few of us have mentioned, all the ASEAN countries pay big dollars for the Premier League, so I wouldn't be counting on any big overflow being directed to a predominantly Australian league.

More to the point - blaming the NPL clubs for their inability/unwillingness to set something up that the FFA can easily crush with regulations.  The last 2-3 years has been the NPL clubs positioning themselves and the FFA in a way that makes it extremely difficult for the FFA to resist that secondary competition.  That's not lazy - it's taken a huge amount of time and effort. 

 Perhaps the thought is that having teams from the largely populated countries will see a significant payout from local tv deals which might be small to them but would be large to us.

Agree with some of the posts above, Australians aren't really interested in watching Asian teams, and within the ASEAN countries, most of the attention is on the Premier League.

I don't understand where all the money is coming from.  Sponsors aren't lining up when our clubs play in the ACL. And clubs outside of Australia tend not to be big draw cards so I can't see Fox spending big on it for sub CCM ratings. 

So even if the money did come it won't be coming from the Australian section. So I can't even see a lot of that money filtering down into Aus clubs. If we were not pulling our weight financially maybe they would just cut us out. We don't have a lot to offer them. 

So as much as I'd love to sponge some money off our neighbours I don't think it's a good idea. 

Dont really see what is in it for singapore or malaysia or indonesia. The ALeague is a bit of a financial basket case with struggling attendance and sponsorship and a shambolic dictatorial administration, why would any currently independant league want to join up with that? Its not as though our football is currently setting the ACL alight either. Would rather we focussed our attention and limited resources on growing the league here with more teams and a pro 2nd div before chasing illusionary pots of gold

what are your thoughts on the japanese model of expansion? they didnt just jump into 4 divisions or whatever they have now. they did it in increments and once they realised their model was fkd - it took them 3 years to admit it, whereas we are still in denial 13 years on - they corrected the league very quickly and bought in a proper tiered system.

regarding the asian leagues.  we have money in sport and interest in the game. however,  just like many SE asian nations the most interest is in the european game - so i dont think an ASEAN super league will rake in cash just because of general football interest in the countries.

i dont need to have a league that matches the epl in australia. i just want a good, solid local league that in its good years can go toe to toe with leagues like denmark, switzerland, scotland, etc.  i dont think we need to re-invent the wheel for this. we just need to involve the existing football structure in the main league. 2 tiers, p+r, lower the cash costing standards for the first few years so 32-40 teams can participate and then the most ambitious will filter themselves into the top tier.  i dont think we need to do anything miraculous here, we just need to involve what is already there and make it accessible. and fuck off franchises.

i would also like to see an independent body run the comp. im not sold on that being run by the clubs or the ffa.

The Smith Report showed 50% of club losses was discretionary spending.  They can spend money where they want to.

The kids are getting a better workout in the NPL anyway, much better than spending 2 days flying/travelling every second week for away NYL games.

A fool and his money are soon parted... although in this case the pockets of the fools only run so deep.

And in 1892/93 I bet most of their players were amateur.

This is 2018. There's no excuse.

Expansion doesn't have to be full time players, even Ipswich in the 1992/93 season of the epl had a part time player/accountancy student playing regularly.

It goes for 8 weeks because the fools we have as owners refused to fund both their academies and the NYL despite them serving different but complementary purposes.

@bluebird,
The requirement for a boutique stadium wasn't meant to mean a new stadium.It could be an existing or upgraded existing stadium.
Playing out of cavernous Major even stadiums is not a requirement.This is the second division afterall.But who knows when it comes down to the meaty end of the season and promotion is up for grabs,who is to say whether massive crowds couldn't be queuing up see Melb team X vs Tas team A.

No. The clubs said it was too expensive to run.
The trade off was to allow the A-League youth teams to play in the local NPL with age restrictions.

Its a joke these days, Ron Smith said in his PFA Conference that the youth league went for 40 weeks ago.

Contrast to the current age and its no wonder we have weak youth national teams.

Expand the A-league to 16 teams (20 teams all up overall in the future) and divide them into 2 divisions of 8 or 10 to determine the creation of A-League 1 and A-league 2

Step 1: Have every team play each other in a home and away season (32 games) and by the end of the season it will determine placings for Division 1 and Division 2

Step 2: The teams placed from last season are grouped in division 1 and division 2 spots, but except all 16 teams play each other like they did in the last season in a regular basis each season

Step 3: By the end of the regular home and away season it will determine the standings in both divisions, you can have a top 4 for finals in division 1 to determine the A-League Champions and finals for division 2 to determine the placings for promotion into division 1
and by the same token, the bottom 3 placed teams in division 1 go for relegation into division 2, whilst the top 3 teams in division 2 go up.

Once both leagues are stable enough to run, they can be separated once they commercial and financially sustainable to be run as separate entities and play on there own with pro-rel intact but both leagues can extend with more teams once they get independence.

On top of that there would be more games (32-38 including finals) and create incentives for staying up in division 1 and introduce transfer fees and loan/transfer system and would mean a much bigger talent pool of players and coaches.

Season 1: All 16 teams play
Season 2: Division 1 and Divison 2 with Pro-Rel and Finals
Season 3: Introduce a League Cup like they do in the UK between the winner of Division 1 and Division 2 (possible ACL spot)
In 5-8 seasons later introduce the NPL Championship and link the NPL clubs to the a-league clubs with Pro-Rel from Division 2.

What do you guys think? 

Longer than Big Bash

People saying the youth league is very important. Is that why it only goes for 8 weeks?

Mark

I think you have indirectly nailed a GROSS miss understanding between many posts who in fact want the identical outcome ... even follow the same pathway .. but see success in a different way.

We have as of now 110 NPL teams with maybe 20 or so showing a keen interest in moving to the A-League ... maybe up to 40 see themselves see themselves as part of a second division capable of moving to Div 1.

On top of this you have guessing maybe 8 outside NPL clubs bids seemingly cashed up also wanting to join the A-League.

For me personally I want a decent league with money to fund professional leagues both male and female, and support if needed national teams.

This will cost a mega amount, if we want to be competitive, if we want to run a low cost league then fine, but if we want both our first division and our national teams to be competitive we need lots and lots of money. This will principally come from broadcasters.... 

I guess it comes down to money, while lower divisions will attract capital from investors, and many existing lower division clubs do have semi professional operating budgets at the end of the day its what level people expect the divisions to be.

 Thats what got me thinking, not I repeat not yet supporting, Tony Sages idea of introducing very soon hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue by having a Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia side in  an 18 team competition with 15 local domestic Australia sides in a 34 round competition. Assuming the Nix go that's an additional 6 sides within two years or a growth rate of 6 on 9 which is 66%.

I can see and understand what Sage is on about... still not supporting ... but it is worth a decent debate... 

I guess it depends on what you want. If you want the standard of domestic football to improve immediately and dramatically, if you want long players to get a chance to make a living from football, if you want clubs to improve their administration dramatically in a cut throat environment, then a second tier DOES have to be professional from Day 1. That's what professionalism will bring.

If on the other hand you are philosophically wedded to an idealistic and romantic view of a 'football pyramid' and that's what you want to achieve, then of course you can be semi-professional. Of course we already had that at each State federation level prior to the introduction of the closed NPL's, and we didn't see that grow the game at state level to challenge the A League in a commercial sense. We also now see the semi pro NPL leagues who do have pro/rel between the two divisions still NOT challenging the A league commercially.

Many other nations have fully professional second/third and fourth divisions where all the players get paid and train and play full time. If our NPL clubs aren't savvy enough to get professional, it's time to get new blood in.

You may not be able to see why but the FFA, clubs and the players entered into agreements so they obviously saw advantages to them.  Maybe their views would be different now but until the agreements are renegotiated neither you nor I will know what system will be acceptable.  The agreements are up for negotiation next year I think.

The A-League clubs are required to have academies up and running by next year and most already do so they will all be running teams from U12 up in the NPL but that only gives them about 2/3 of the games they need per season for development.  Some might get picked up by 2nd division clubs when we have one but most of the 2nd div clubs will be running their own academies and have their own young players to sign.  The NYL may be able to be regionalised to reduce costs but the point is that an elite competition is required for the elite young players that need accelerated development before they are left to fend for themselves.  The point isn't to play against players of a similar age bracket it is to play against players of a similar age and standard so the NYL should see the best of the 16 to 20 year olds having an extra 4 months intensive training and playing in order to prepare them for a crack at the 'big time".

The thing I would fault is the boutique stadium which seems to be a common demand for clubs going forward

If clubs don't want to support existing region infrastructure then they can kiss goodbye any government funding or community buy in, and there goes their chance to even launch a successful bid

How a game looks on TV comes second

crimsoncrusoe wrote:

The real way to improve Australian football and generate interest is to 
1.Set up a 2nd Division.
2.Set up clear critieria for teams to be allowed entry to a second division.
3.Call for expressions of interest.
4.Select teams for the second division,with a major priority being A boutique stadium and clear fan engagement minimum standards,regardless of region size.
5The big carrot....The Premiers of the 2nd division are promoted to the HAL.
6.Repeat step 5 for 6 years.
7.No free ride into the HAL by way of a bag of money and a fishing licence.Only from the 2nd Div can you get in.
8.Relegation from the HAL,when there are 16 teams.
8.Independence for HAL and 2nd Div. 

Pretty much this.  Hard to fault the logic here.  

Waz

I think we agree on about 90% of stuff ... we disagree on the extent and degree ... of how timing and implementation can work.

IMO very very very humble opinion we need to create the structure and systems  and determine whats needed to be considered.... there is no way we can be ready quickly even those running and representing the 110 NPL clubs have said the earliest is 2024 and that's even too soon they think.... 

Creating the structure especially if we have created a workable 1 tier competition is important... thats arguably the most important reason we need to go to 16 teams and independently owned clubs and league.

I like how you include a one line summary of your posts so people don't have to keep reading

The NPL is a knock out tournament. There is no consolidated second tier of the next best talent playing against one another. It is split across 90 teams and a number of leagues

A second tier doesn't have to be professional from day 1 in the same way the A League didn't need a $50m TV deal from day 1. It can only grow once it has been established, and it can never be established as fully professional

No sense blaming NPL clubs for their inability to do something no sport in this country has been able to achieve to date - a fully professional and self funded second tier

@ Midfielder

A FIFA model does not have to have fully professional clubs.

Many countries operate a FIFA model with part-timers operating in with the professional clubs. It’s entirely possible that the HAL could be professional, Div 2 a mix of pro and semi-pro clubs, and div 3+ semi-pro (that’s the NPL today).

And we already have four divisions, HAL, NPL1, NPL2, then a State/Capital League. Some states go down to 10+ divisions.

It’s important (for me) that we stop putting artificial barriers in the way of clubs. Open up the pyramid and let clubs figure out what they want to do.

E.g. Lions FC have 22,000 members, facilities most HAL clubs would die for, and annual revenues similar to Mariners - why shouldn’t they have a pathway upwards?

Waz

A full FIFA model would have 4 to 5 divisions all operating on P & R.

So at 4 thats 64 professional teams at 5 its 70 professional teams. With all teams capable of moving to Div 1.

As I see it that's near impossible.... whereas 32 professional sides clearly is for all the reasons you point out

Thats were I sit as well 

Rubbish.
We don't need a semi pro second level, we already have that. What we need is a fully professional second level where players are paid to train and play full time. That's how players will improve and the overall standard will improve.
That can happen today if the NPL clubs get off their arses and do it.