Cyprus comparison thread (and also Australia vs Syria)


Cyprus comparison thread (and also Australia vs Syria)

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Muz
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Just for clarity there was no selective editing in my post where the considerations jump from 50 to 256. From the other sections of that document there are other considerations numbered like that but under different sub headings. I think they’re additions added after the original issue.

I’ll try and link the original document.


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Well here you go.  A more up to date version here from the AFC: 2017

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2017-09/AFC%20Consideration-Booklet-2017-revised_9nlkpp5ei4sr17tnk5rrlowf9.pdf

Handling the Ball, Holding and Impeding

71 Is the hand moving towards the ball or is the ball moving towards the hand?
72 Are the player's hands or arms in a ¨natural position" or an ¨unnatural position"?
73 Does the player attempt to avoid the ball striking the hand?
74 Does the ball strike the player’s hand from a short or from a long distance?
75 Does the player use the hand or arm to deliberately touch or block the ball?
76 Does the player attempt to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
77 Does the player prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
78 Does the player prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball?
79 Does the player try to deceive the referee by handling the ball?
80 Is the ball moving in the direction of the goal?
81 Does the player deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity by holding an opponent?
82 Does holding start from outside the penalty area and continue inside?
83 Does the player impede the progress of an opponent with contact?
84 Does the player impede the progress of an opponent with the hands?
85 Does the player unsuccessfully attempt to prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?




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My one quoted in the original post.

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2017-09/FIFA%20Analysis%20of%20Match%20Situations%202015_1rnefe2q5b22m11andt2h6gga1.pdf

Linked from here:  https://www.ffa.com.au/get-involved/refereeing/resources

Edit: referees thread started on main page.  Have at it.


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Edited
6 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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miron mercedes - 16 Jan 2019 1:33 PM
sokorny - 16 Jan 2019 1:21 PM

....yes I agree with you ...some refs do give them in lower leagues and that annoys the hell out of me. I also play Sunday league level these days and it seem that even supposedly qualified refs just interprete the laws in some very different ways .....but this is is international football ....and thankfully this ref got it right in this instance.
Pity the commentators don't google Laws of the Game ...its right there on there on their iphones if they want it .
I would contend that probably fewer than 20% of all players playing football would have ever looked at the laws of the game  (including me ....I spent 24 years playing senior football without ever opening the book ...I only started looking at it when I started coaching juniors many years ago )

Correct. Unfortunately the natural/unnatural consideration has come to define handball decisions. As with any statute interpretation, the law must be read in its entirety to identify the meaning of the words in the context in which the law-makers had intended, i.e., you can't base the decision/argument on an isolated sentence.  
If the law-makers had intended that every time the ball touches the arm/hand be deemed a foul, then that is what the law would say. 
In Milligen's example, it was a clear attempt to clear the ball by kicking it out, a poor clearance kick saw it ricochet into his arm and put Fox commentators into a spin. If his attempt to clear the ball had missed his arm and continued backwards towards Ryan, who catches it, it would be play on. Yes? No?
Edited
6 Years Ago by Proud Dad
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Davide82 - 16 Jan 2019 1:30 PM
I feel dirty for saying this, but....I think Grant played really well.

I would start him over Risdon at this point purely for the fact I think his crossing is (or at least has been) better. If we are going to play with overlapping fullbacks and inside forwards I would choose him at this stage. 

To be fair, he hasn't been HUGELY tested (Risdon stood up to greater tests in the WC but I don't think he has been in great form since) and I still fear he is a red card waiting to happen but I haven't actually seen that side of him at all yet.

Grant is far superior to risdon. Grant has close to the biggest engine ive seen olay for the roos along with Emerton. 
Final ball and composure better also
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mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 1:32 PM
WC20182022 - 16 Jan 2019 1:20 PM

I can't let it go either.

Viduka, Kewell, Schwarzer were genuine stars and mainstays in their respective teams in Europe.

We were getting many rave reports from the Europeans about our players. We don't get that anymore today.

Cahill was evertons best play in 04/05 and 05/06. Nominated for balon dor in 2006. Fergie nearly bought him in 07 and claims not signing him one of his biggest regrets. Cahill was an absolute star. So too bosnich was a star and was golden gen albeit his career ended early before the others. Bresc and Neill at that time were also stars subjected to big bids from big clubs. Chippers is an all time best 11 player at Basel and club legend. What a team it was. The current crop has some good players too. Mooy has a legitimate claim as being Huddersfields greatest ever player, rogic is on his way to legend status at Celtic. Matty Ryan is the standout player at Brighton. Sains getting reasonable minutes at a champs league team. Need now Irvine Luongo Mabil and Ikon to get moves
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Bunch of Hacks - 16 Jan 2019 5:53 PM
mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 1:32 PM

Cahill was evertons best play in 04/05 and 05/06. Nominated for balon dor in 2006. Fergie nearly bought him in 07 and claims not signing him one of his biggest regrets. Cahill was an absolute star. So too bosnich was a star and was golden gen albeit his career ended early before the others. Bresc and Neill at that time were also stars subjected to big bids from big clubs. Chippers is an all time best 11 player at Basel and club legend. What a team it was. The current crop has some good players too. Mooy has a legitimate claim as being Huddersfields greatest ever player, rogic is on his way to legend status at Celtic. Matty Ryan is the standout player at Brighton. Sains getting reasonable minutes at a champs league team. Need now Irvine Luongo Mabil and Ikon to get moves

Absolutely.



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Where are the press conferences? Terrible coverage.


By now, American Samoa must have realised that Australias 22-0 win over Tonga two days earlier was no fluke.

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Handling the Ball, Holding and Impeding
ok then, for Milligan:

71 Is the hand moving towards the ball or is the ball moving towards the hand?
Ball moving towards hand
72 Are the player's hands or arms in a ¨natural position" or an ¨unnatural position"?
Questionable. He was jumping and put his arms out to balance so more or less natural... 
73 Does the player attempt to avoid the ball striking the hand?
Not much time 
74 Does the ball strike the player’s hand from a short or from a long distance?
Pretty short
75 Does the player use the hand or arm to deliberately touch or block the ball?
No
76 Does the player attempt to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
No
77 Does the player prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
No
78 Does the player prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball?
No
79 Does the player try to deceive the referee by handling the ball?
No
80 Is the ball moving in the direction of the goal?
No
81 Does the player deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity by holding an opponent?
No
82 Does holding start from outside the penalty area and continue inside?
No
83 Does the player impede the progress of an opponent with contact?
No
84 Does the player impede the progress of an opponent with the hands?
No
85 Does the player unsuccessfully attempt to prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
No


Overall, I think the referee was probably right to not pay it, purely because it was such an innocuous situation. Milligan was clear, there was not real goal scoring threat or opportunity if the ball did not hit his arm.

looking at those criteria, if it were the same situation but the ball was heading in a slightly different direction and there was actually an opposition player who may have been able to get on the end of it, then the chances of a penalty would be much higher

In the context, the accidental handball just did not impact play and Syria would have been lucky to get a penalty for doing nothing.  







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it's probably been beaten to death already in this thread. but i only just watched the game.

i think i called it. pulling milligan out of midfield was a fucking nightmare. and we sorely could have used jurman to muscle up against their striker,  irvine was nowhere near the player this match and i think it's because milligan was much more of an anchor to allow him the freedom to get up into those contests.

i really think that's about the worst movement off the ball we have had for a long while. well the first 40 and patches in the second half.  awful. no one was opening up passing options.  we were getting caught with the ball, turning it over, and playing desperate low percentage passes just to move the ball around. 

grant was probably motm - if his throws weren't so shit. motm is the ref for giving us a free hand ball in the box. muy bueno mi amigo.

 




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Enzo Bearzot - 16 Jan 2019 9:14 AM
robbos - 16 Jan 2019 8:17 AM

Is that some sort of joke?

the 2002 and 2006 squads are man for man better in every position than this squad.

Is Bresc better than Mooy?  Yeah he is.  But it would be Paul Okon who would be in Mooy's deep laying playmaker role. No comparison: Okon>>>>Mooy

Emerton is better than Leckie.  People can only remember that last year or so of Emerton's career.  Few remember how he was able to play with the ball at his feet in his days at .Feyenoord and 10 years in the EPL after. Its an insult to him to put Leckie ahead of him.

Is Zelic better than Sainsbury?  Now you're just trolling.

You are no doubt joking!!! I have seen all these players in my time, everyone talks about Zelic winning the Bundesliga, he played 4 games that year, Okon had all the talent, but how well did he go in England or even for that matter in Italy, a bit part player in an era where you didn't have the influx of Africans, Sth Americans & even eastern Europeans in the top leagues. Emerton also another player with huge potential spent 10 years at Blackburn being a decent loyal servant, (nothing special) just like Leckie in the Bundesliga.
Please I never said today's team is better I said there was not much difference. We get all caught on how great we once were, when we only ever create 2 high quality players.
Look at Jedinak, if he played in 2002/2006, he would be remembered as a great leader, strong no 6 & free kick & penalty taker with amazing ability, why because in 2002/06 the ball would have flew over his head from centre back to the attack, but instead Jedinak is also remembered for his poor passing, because in 2014/18, the no 6 had to learn to pass the ball.
Too many people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, especially those players that played in Italy or Germany & we had very little view of them

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robbos - 16 Jan 2019 9:41 PM
Enzo Bearzot - 16 Jan 2019 9:14 AM

You are no doubt joking!!! I have seen all these players in my time, everyone talks about Zelic winning the Bundesliga, he played 4 games that year, Okon had all the talent, but how well did he go in England or even for that matter in Italy, a bit part player in an era where you didn't have the influx of Africans, Sth Americans & even eastern Europeans in the top leagues. Emerton also another player with huge potential spent 10 years at Blackburn being a decent loyal servant, (nothing special) just like Leckie in the Bundesliga.
Please I never said today's team is better I said there was not much difference. We get all caught on how great we once were, when we only ever create 2 high quality players.
Look at Jedinak, if he played in 2002/2006, he would be remembered as a great leader, strong no 6 & free kick & penalty taker with amazing ability, why because in 2002/06 the ball would have flew over his head from centre back to the attack, but instead Jedinak is also remembered for his poor passing, because in 2014/18, the no 6 had to learn to pass the ball.
Too many people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, especially those players that played in Italy or Germany & we had very little view of them

The stats speak for themselves!

NED ZELIC

Borussia Dortmund72(1)
1995Queens Park Rangers11(0)
1996Eintracht Frankfurt20(4)
1996–1997AJ Auxerre18(4)
1997–20011860 München102(3)


PAUL OKON

Club Brugge72(1)
1996–1999Lazio19(0)
1999–2000Fiorentina11(0)
2000–2002Middlesbrough28(1)
2002Watford (loan)15(0)
2002–2003Leeds United15(0)

Brett Emerton

2000–2003Feyenoord92(11)
2003–2011Blackburn Rovers247(13)

MARK VIDUKA

1995–1998Dinamo Zagreb84(40)
1998–2000Celtic37(30)
2000–2004Leeds United130(59)
2004–2007Middlesbrough72(26)
2007–2009Newcastle United38(7)

Harry Kewell

1996–2003Leeds United181(45)
2003–2008Liverpool93(12)
2008–2011Galatasaray63(22)

FRANK FARINA



1988–1991Club Brugge75(43)
1991–1992Bari8(0)
1992Notts County (loan)3(0)
1992–1994Strasbourg47(14)
1994–1995Lille27(6)






















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mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 10:51 AM
robbos - 16 Jan 2019 8:17 AM

Everyone has an agenda. I am no different.

My agenda is to crush the delusion that we are so good. Why? Because I believe we are not that good and that the delusion is further damaging Australian Football.

My agenda is to show we are on a pathway of regression and stagnation. This is to further other aims which I believe will strengthen Aussie Football in the future such as more teams, a second tier, promotion and relegation. I believe this is going to change the dynamic completely.

That's my agenda and it isn't a bad agenda.

Also, you are delusional to believe that there were no better players playing for Australia during the GG years than there are now. The standard of the HAL has deteriorated. Aussie players are not making it in Europe like they use to. In fact, even Giannou is struggling in the Cyprus League but over here is looking great.

'The Aussie players are not making it in Europe like they used to'.

Mate I 've been watching football for a long time, I thik back to the GG era, who were the stars in the premier league in 02-06, lots of British players with a sprinkling of foreign players, have a look now, it's all foreign players with a sprinkling of British players. WHY, because football has changed, no longer was the hard running, tough tackling, physical direct footballers that the British & the Aussies are famous for, are no longer in vogue. They prefer more skillful players, who can handle the physical stuff, that's why the luxury player almost gone too. Look too how many Africans (feeding whole villages), Sth Americans, eastern Europeans & now even Asians playing in the top leagues in comparison to the days of the GG, the competition got a lot harder for the Aussies & even the Brits.
I wonder how many of the GG generation would be in the top leagues these days, Kewell & dukes I admit were the exception.
Yes I think you have an agenda,

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robbos - 16 Jan 2019 9:59 PM
mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 10:51 AM

'The Aussie players are not making it in Europe like they used to'.

Mate I 've been watching football for a long time, I thik back to the GG era, who were the stars in the premier league in 02-06, lots of British players with a sprinkling of foreign players, have a look now, it's all foreign players with a sprinkling of British players. WHY, because football has changed, no longer was the hard running, tough tackling, physical direct footballers that the British & the Aussies are famous for, are no longer in vogue. They prefer more skillful players, who can handle the physical stuff, that's why the luxury player almost gone too. Look too how many Africans (feeding whole villages), Sth Americans, eastern Europeans & now even Asians playing in the top leagues in comparison to the days of the GG, the competition got a lot harder for the Aussies & even the Brits.
I wonder how many of the GG generation would be in the top leagues these days, Kewell & dukes I admit were the exception.
Yes I think you have an agenda,

I was watching Football all the way back to the early 80s, and would hardly miss a game.

You are deluded to believe we have the players of the same class as back then. The only class player we have today is Azani (potentially) and he might not reach his full potential now.

In the old days we had household names. People in Europe would be able to name half the Australian Squad. Now, they can't do that and our players are washing out everywhere.

We are not producing the same quality. We do not have the class I listed above. I haven't even named a dozen or so more as well.

Edited
6 Years Ago by mouflonrouge
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mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 9:51 PM
robbos - 16 Jan 2019 9:41 PM

The stats speak for themselves!

NED ZELIC

Borussia Dortmund72(1)
1995Queens Park Rangers11(0)
1996Eintracht Frankfurt20(4)
1996–1997AJ Auxerre18(4)
1997–20011860 München102(3)


PAUL OKON

Club Brugge72(1)
1996–1999Lazio19(0)
1999–2000Fiorentina11(0)
2000–2002Middlesbrough28(1)
2002Watford (loan)15(0)
2002–2003Leeds United15(0)

Brett Emerton

2000–2003Feyenoord92(11)
2003–2011Blackburn Rovers247(13)

MARK VIDUKA

1995–1998Dinamo Zagreb84(40)
1998–2000Celtic37(30)
2000–2004Leeds United130(59)
2004–2007Middlesbrough72(26)
2007–2009Newcastle United38(7)

Harry Kewell

1996–2003Leeds United181(45)
2003–2008Liverpool93(12)
2008–2011Galatasaray63(22)

FRANK FARINA



1988–1991Club Brugge75(43)
1991–1992Bari8(0)
1992Notts County (loan)3(0)
1992–1994Strasbourg47(14)
1994–1995Lille27(6)






















Rogic 101 games Celtic 26 years old
Mooy 105 games for Huddersfield including 54 in premier league, 28 years old
Leckie 107 in Bundesliga  27 years old
Kruse 64 games in Bundesliga

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robbos - 16 Jan 2019 10:13 PM
mouflonrouge - 16 Jan 2019 9:51 PM

Rogic 101 games Celtic 26 years old
Mooy 105 games for Huddersfield including 54 in premier league, 28 years old
Leckie 107 in Bundesliga  27 years old
Kruse 64 games in Bundesliga

Those playes are a long way off before you can classify them as stars.

Leckie and Kruse you can forget it.

Rogic and Mooy do have potential though.

But we still don't have enough compared to the past.


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Don't see the point of this debate, like it is obvious at least our 2006 and 2010 squads were playing at a higher level (Bigger clubs or sides competing hard in European competition such as UCL and Europa League) and had better depth. That's not really debatable (And i have provided the stats in the past two pages to back it up_ Myths that the 06 team were not playing regularly have already been busted.  People rewriting history, we have fucking 1 point in our last two World Cups lol. 

World football is obviously improving, especially with the competitive environment, improved scouting, improved sports science if you were to make both teams play i don't know who would win. Football has changed so much, but the thing is these players compared to peers in that era were playing regularly for clubs competing for titles and doing well in European competition. Who have we even got left in European football at the moment? Rogic?  When Viduka and Kewell broke into the EPL the Serie A was a top league, and a lot of the countries that now provide talent to the EPL had players based in the Serie A, La Liga and Bundesliga. Football has changed a lot. 

I'm all for the curriculum and trying to create a factory of footballers who will make us regular threats to win games at a world cup but not at the expense of rewriting history. 

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Watched the matched on a two hour delay...first chance to visit this thread. While I am proud of the boys and super glad to finish second in the group.... My take is;

- Ryan had a shocker. Poor distribution and he should have dealt with the cross that led to their first goal much better (even caught it).

- Our first 25 mins or so were terrible. We were like a ship without chart and compass waiting to be wrecked or marooned.

- credit to Rogic, Ikon, Mabil and Grant for bringing it when we needed it.....they were our best. There’s no way Leckie or Kruse would have converted those chances. They have been our attacking Achilles for many years now and finally we have better options.

- Giannou has proven why he should have been selected in the squad in the first place and should start next match.

- I’m gobsmacked that Arnie did not opt to play Jurman at CB and retain Millsy at DM. If Jurman wasn’t brought in for that scenario then why hell bring him....he has proven himself in the position in the past. I was even more gobsmacked when Kruse came on for Mabil around the 80 mark instead of Jurman entering the fray and us reverting to a 5-4-1 for the final 10-15 and shutting up shop.

While I understand keeping possession denies the opposition the chance to score and a third goal would/did kill off the game(last minute mind you).....you are playing a dangerous game by allowing so much space at the back; all it takes is a few quick accurate passes into space on the counter and bang; they score. Anyone would think that WE needed to win the match in order to progress.

If it wasn’t for an often poor final ball/cross by Syria in the last 15mins then we would have been in all sorts of bother. I would much rather take my chances with denying the opposition space and time and defending for dear life than trying to score a goal that is uneccessary while leaving huge space at the back. This time we got lucky....will we be so lucky next time.....
Edited
6 Years Ago by Boca J
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JonoMV - 16 Jan 2019 10:22 PM
Don't see the point of this debate, like it is obvious at least our 2006 and 2010 squads were playing at a higher level (Bigger clubs or sides competing hard in European competition such as UCL and Europa League) and had better depth. That's not really debatable (And i have provided the stats in the past two pages to back it up_ Myths that the 06 team were not playing regularly have already been busted.  People rewriting history, we have fucking 1 point in our last two World Cups lol. 

World football is obviously improving, especially with the competitive environment, improved scouting, improved sports science if you were to make both teams play i don't know who would win. Football has changed so much, but the thing is these players compared to peers in that era were playing regularly for clubs competing for titles and doing well in European competition. Who have we even got left in European football at the moment? Rogic?  When Viduka and Kewell broke into the EPL the Serie A was a top league, and a lot of the countries that now provide talent to the EPL had players based in the Serie A, La Liga and Bundesliga. Football has changed a lot. 

I'm all for the curriculum and trying to create a factory of footballers who will make us regular threats to win games at a world cup but not at the expense of rewriting history. 

I have never doubted that the Kewell and Viduka era that Aussie players were playing in a higher league.
I agree football has changed, but my point being, when Kewell & Viduka was breaking into the EPL, how many French players were playing in the league, how many Africans, how many south Americans & how many Eastern Europeans, yes there were a few, but just have a look at Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Man U & Arsenal, how many foreigners are the stars, Mane, Sane, Augeruo, Hazard, Salah, De Bruyne, Silva, Silva, Firmino, Progba & the list goes on & on. I could pick a side of very talented French players, who couldn't get in the French National team playing in the EPL. Look how many Africans & sth Americans there are compared to in those days of GG generation.
We are also seeing alot more football these days then in those days, I can watch Ronaldo & Messi play every week, I don't remember being able to see Maradona every week, I just remember his glory days, not the week to week grind. I hardly saw any of Okon & Zelic after they left the NSL, we didn't see the Bundesliga or the Belgium leagues much & Australia only played a meaningful match once every 4 years. Imagine if we got fed that Leckie was playing in the Bundesliga every year & never saw him play & for Socceroos once every 4 years or so.
Okon 28 odd Socceroos appearances, Zelic, 34, Kewell 56, Viduka 43, all legends of Australian football played less then Kruse 73 caps & Leckie 59 & many more to come.

How many of them would play in the top leagues today? I'm not knocking what they achieved, they were my heroes, but my point being outside Kewell & Dukes, the players now are not as poor in comparison as some would like to make it out, just because they are not playing in the top leagues any more. Look at Juventus today in super cup, just 2 Italians in starting lineup for the top team in Serie A.

GO


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