Deleted because some people totally wrongly thought I was being sarcastic.

This is an extremely sad event, an horrific event that no one should have to endure.

Accidentally saw footage on twitter (for real don’t even look up #Christchurch, videos auto play) and I am sick to my stomach. There is going to be dozens confirmed dead.Shooter posted his whole manifesto on 8chan and streamed the shooting to Facebook. Fucked up world we live in.

What do you mean? Alarmed at the wording of the OP? What have I said that is wrong?

I have just watched a man who survived the attack being interviewed on NZ TV being transmitted my the ABC news station and it is so sad. He described how he went to run out of the mosque and was stopped by another person so he went back to where he was hiding and the gunman came back and shot the other man in the chest. It is so sad to see what humans are capable of doing, brought me to tears. 
There is no excuse for this kind of violence, no one should be shooting one, let alone dozens or more of people. It seems two mosques were attacked.

Another interview with a survivor describing what he saw, absolutely horrific, there must be many dead, many seriously injured, so sad what has happened.

Seems the shooter was an anti Muslim white supremacist. Apparently worried that the white peoples land of New Zealand was being invaded by non whites. 
How about the fact New Zealand was the land of Maoris, not white people? Such stupidity leading to this horrific act.

Unfortunately predictable.  This is what you get with dog-whistling politicians, shock jocks  and the cesspit that some parts of the internet are formenting hatred against marginal/minority groups.

Apologies OP, I was slightly concerned that it was sarcastic.

Videos going around showing two armed people running around the streets. Horrifying, and even worse to think that a new type of terrorist is being bred in developed countries.

In the supposed manifesto of a shooter he identifies himself as Australian. Sickening.

deleted now confusion fixed.

Calm down. He apologised.  That should be the end of it.

I tried to send him a PM with an actual apology as well, but he either has it disabled or his inbox is full. 

The phrasing 'sad, so very sad' is something I've seen often on the internet in a patronising manner, especially when it comes to race related incidents. That is why I was concerned. I'm thankful and happy to admit that little inkling of doubt I was 100% wrong.

Thank you JLM8695. Apology accepted.

I can assure everyone I was being 100% genuine in my opening post when I said it was sad. I have shed tears watching interviews of two survivors of the attack. The details they gave are totally shocking, something no one should be going through. Religion of the victims does not matter, they are victims of a horrific incident.

The original post, without the context of your later comments, could be misinterpreted as sarcastic...  But your tone is more than clear after subsequent posts.  Tragic indeed.  As someone else said - this is what happens when we allow people to spread so much hate about a group.  Eventually one (or two) nutcases will strike back against innocent civilians...  Which is exactly what the bad minority of Muslims would have wanted - they now have an excuse to strike back...

Yep. This is what happens when wolf whistling  is more important to certain politicians and shock jocks.

Please mind how we go here - I know early posts have been fine, but don't let this get dragged into bad areas (and especially no video links please.)

Thanks all. It's a terrible tragedy that is still playing out.

I have edited my opening post to remove any confusion, not that I can even see why there would be confusion.

Are the reports that only one of the shooters is Australian or it both?

Is there 2?  Thought there was only 1.

Edit:  ABC reporting 4 in custody.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/

It seems to be a possibility, certainly not ruled out by NZ authorities as far as I have seen.

Now they're saying 4 have been arrested. 3 men and 1 is a woman. 1 of the men is from Grafton NSW.

40 now confirmed dead.

Just saw the footage. You would be forgiven if you thought it was in America as we couldnt comprehend an event like this happening in NZ.

The Muslim world wouldn't take this lying down. the extremists would likely to respond with a similar event, so we gotta be on our toes.

Exactly the sort of attack that Islamic State sympathizers have dreamed of for years. 

im sure they did alot worse to prisoners of war than what this guy had done.

IS executed people by caged drownings, RPG fired into a car, setting someone on fire, wiring explosives around the prisoners neck then blowing em up, beheadings, dropping a huge rock on a poor guys head. ive seen em all. its as bad as you'll see

The reason ISIS does these unbelievably shocking things is to garner a negative reaction and from non-muslims so "we" retaliate. They want westerners to commit atrocities against muslims so the moderate muslim majority, or those on the fringes of extremism feel threatened enough get driven towards the fundamentalist cause.

Around the world there will be islamic extremists salivating over the prospect of using this to further their cause.

Senator anning what a fucking - oops, I just ate my own poop.... 

Can’t believe he is in Parliament

He made that statement and his following tweets about himself.  Fucking scum

Was bound to happen eventually.

2014 anders  bierveik . Which the Aussie was supposedly a fan off. This is what happens when politicians  wolf whilstle

I'm glad at times like these I work shit tonnes. So I must ask.

Can someone tell me wtf happened? Why is PewdiePie or whatever posting? What on earth is this? I've seen news outlets criticised. 

Pewdiepie had nothing to do with this

It's just unfortunate that someone decides to use his name in his video. This is not what Pewdiepie is about

How dare he even desecrate Pewdiepies name like this in his video

My thoughts with the families who have lost loved ones. May God offer them a rest in green pastures.

I've always wondered what the point of Pewdiepie is???

What is he all about?

Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg, known online as PewDiePie, is a Swedish YouTuber, comedian and video game player–commentator, best known for his YouTube video content, which has mainly consisted of Let's Play commentaries, vlogs, and comedic formatted shows. 

A group of people, including an Australia born person who was living in the New Zealand massacred Muslims at Friday prayer in two mosques in Christchurch
The Australian born person live streamed his attack on one of the mosques showing him killing many people. 
However the start of the video shows him driving to the mosque and in this section he apparently tells people to subscribe to this PewdiePie, who I have never heard of before. He seems to a youtube blogger with a controversial reputation but has absolutely nothing to do with this terrorist attack.

It was a loan Australian terrorist who did the shooting at two mosques, two others have been arrested but its not clear what their roles are, he came to New Zealand in 2017 with the express purpose of massacring the innocent. He chose New Zealand to make a statement after being radicalised in Europe. He wasn't even targeting us, he was targeting the world we just happened to be the stage.

Also, who cares about Pewdiepie. 50 innocent people were killed in cold blood by a coward. Get some perspective.

I worked as part of the relief effort after the Canterbury earthquake. That city has been through so much tragedy, it's unthinkable that it's had more.

I don't care about Pewdiepie, I was answering a question otherwise I would not have commented on him. Yet you have a go at me for being helpful.

One suspect has been released as police found they were an armed civilian trying to help police.  Jacinda arden is going to change gun laws. She looked broken yesterday. 

Yup, this is their Port Arthur.

-PB

What the fuck is wrong with Fraser Anning?  He is not right in the head.

He is doubling down on his comments too. He actually posted 7 hrs ago that'll he be down in Melbourne.  Saying our forefathers fought for freedom of speech  .I have no words for the waste of oxygen 

He is human garbage.  I think he received 19 votes in the last election but then I see him lionised on facebook as the voice of reason.

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/19-people-got-this-bloke-a-200k-job/news-story/f8d8aaa83f0c2bcab53626455a3698d6

There aren't enough pejoratives in the English language for scum like him.

It's weird that the most racist, xenophobic, African gang-fearing rhetoric comes from Western and North Qld where, besides your local Chinese restaurant, you'd be lucky to run into a non-white immigrant.

It's like the inverse square law.  The further you are away from immigrants the more fearful you are of them.  I understand people in Sydney or Melbourne bitching about things like this but why some bloke west of Julia Creek or north of the Daintree wants to rant and rave about it blows my mind.

  

The media like waleed aly  said on the project are trying to validate his  views alongside Paulines . 

Fishing for easy votes when up for re-election, doesn't need many.

-PB

Let's hope those 18 people who voted for him don't get him re elected again. 

What did he actually say? 

Thanks for the answers dudes.

Are NZ gun laws more relaxed than ours. Interesting to read more details this morning.

Read the 4chan posts.
Seen the footage.
Followed his travel itinerary. 
Saw his archived Twitter and Facebook posts. 

Surely more arrests to follow.

Do yourselves a favour and read his manifesto. This man is not a "right wing extremist" he is a communist. He says so himself.

He says that the nation that most closely aligns with his political beliefs is the People's republic of China. He compares himself to a modern day Nelson Mandela, who committed acts of violence to free his people and was eventually liberated. This idiot thinks he will also be freed in the future.

He is an environmentalist and uses the high birth rates of Muslims as a reason for the overpopulation of the planet.

He rails against individualism. He is pro-collectivist. He wants more government control over people. He goes at length to criticise conservatives harshly. He is VERY against capitalism and corporate greed. He believes in worker's rights to own the means of production. He does not support Donald Trump's policies.

He wants the democrats to take away people's guns in the US to spark a civil war. That's one of the main reasons he used semi-automatic assault rifles in the attack.

He does also comment briefly about how he feels about marxists/antifa and the like. How he wishes they would die. This is of course, at odds with his pro-communist views. 

There is no doubt this man is an evil white supremacist, white nationalist who describes himself as an eco/ethno fascist. Just goes to show how fascism aligns far more closely to communism than it does to capitalism and modern conservatism. Let's hope there is a speedy trial where he can be thrown in jail for life and receive some good old-fashioned prison justice for his crimes. I am however concerned that this will turn into a circus where he can spout his propaganda to the world.

Umm Wtf.  Wtf happened to you ? Also welcome back I guess 

He's what's called an "accelerationist" - for things to get better, they've got to get alot worse first (or as someone else characterised it: "the only way out is through"). 

To engender a racial awakening in white-majority nations, an all out race-war must be started so we finally realise the evils of living in a multi-ethnic society and finally revert to racially homogeneous nations. Presumably, this shooting was an attempt to hasten this awakening and spread his message. 



You're not wrong. Most ethno-nationalists hate capitalism because it's godless and soulless, reducing everyone's worth to their ability to be productive and generate an income and generally exploits the poor.  Fascism actually has its roots in socialism and Marxism, so to characterise this bloke as "right-wing" isn't accurate in my opinion.

It is the manifesto of an uneducated person, Nuff said.

i saw some of the manifesto

what he had hoped to do is to split America in 2 dividing the country on racial grounds, push America into abolishing the second amendment and potentially start a civil war.

i hope American dont buy into this crap

Yup, he wants firearms to be banned in NZ because they hadn't stood up for themselves or some shit.

They will play into his hands lol

-PB

Shame this cowardly murdering slime bag didn't try to shoot it out with the cops.   May he die in prison & rot in hell.  

Jesus Christ, anyone who thinks fascism has a basis in Marxism needs to read a history book. Badly.

Why do (presumably) moderate people feel the need to reinvent history in order to blame the "other side" for all forms of extremism?

I'm left of center and I think Marxism is stupid, but I've never felt compelled to insist that Marxism has some right-wing basis - because that would be dumb.

You can condemn extremism without having to totally disassociate your side of politics from it.

This. It's both embarrassing and fucking stupid that some right wingers are trying to link this guy to the left and especially Marxists.

It's a bit like how some right wingers try and claim that Hitler was a leftist.

Lolol the irony

Early Italian Fascist political theory drew heavily from the works of Marx and Engels. Basically, the train of philosophical thought was Marxism (all property is publically owned so to prevent exploitation of workers) --> Syndicalism (workers own the means of production through unions) --> Fascist Syndicalism (fusing class struggle with nationalism) --> Mussolini and Fascism. Mussolini was himself an ardent socialist before he evolved into a syndicalist and then a fascist. 

Educate yourself before embarrassing yourself with such stupid comments. 

Wow, this is impressively wrong. Most idiots who conflate fascism and Marxism do so through wilful ignorance of history. In your case, it seems like you've tried to read about it, but have only managed to fixate on buzzwords that suit your ideology without reading the content in between.

Mussolini's brand of syndicalism specifically rejected class struggle (the essence of Marxism) in favour of class collaboration: i.e. workers and employers collectively owned production and made economic decisions in conjunction with the state. That's about as fundamental a difference from Marxism as you can get.

Meanwhile, once Mussolini and Hitler came to power, they disempowered trade unions (they were totally banned in Germany) and privatised previously state-owned enterprises (admittedly by giving control to political allies, but that's just crony capitalism for you). They constantly demonised Marxists and socialists with their propaganda. And all of this goes without mentioning their intense social conservatism around race, women and sexuality.

To say fascism is in any way left-wing, or has any basis in Marxism, is dead wrong.

This is exactly what’s wrong with politics in the internet age: people are more interested in exonerating “their team” (even if that team includes scumbag extremists) than they are in objectivity. Before the early 2000s it would’ve been nigh on impossible to find someone who’d genuinely attempt to conflate fascism and Marxism. The recent rise of right-wing populism seems to have changed that, and it’s a load of bullshit.

Fantastic post.

Woah nice strawman dude. I never "conflated" the two, just stated that the ideological origins of fascistic movements are borne out of a reading of Marxism which is factually true.  Obviously as the twentieth century progressed the two ideologies diverged quite a bit and culminated in the conflicts of the second world war. Good rant though

Regardless I don't want to derail the thread any longer, if you want to respond feel free to do so through PM or whatever

Changing your argument halfway through doesn't make my response to your original claim a "strawman." 

You said that fascism had its roots in Marxism and that it drew heavily from Marx... which is only "factually true" if you believe that directly rejecting an ideology and offering an alternative to it counts as "drawing heavily" from it. That logic would suggest that Trumpism has its roots in neoliberalism because it "drew on it" by responding to neoliberalism and rejecting it out of hand - a pretty intellectually dishonest characterisation.

But anyway, now your argument seems to be that fascism:
a) emerged as a rejection of, and an alternative to, Marxism
b) diverged from Marxism, evolving into an ideology that accepted a class-based society, rejected workers' rights and supported private capital
c) involved extreme social conservatism

And if that's the argument you're making, then we agree completely. The conclusion of that argument would appear to directly contradict your initial implication that fascism wasn't right-wing, but I guess I'm glad you've acknowledged that the original claim was an ahistorical one.

Blamed muslim immigration for the shooting.  I can't find a link only a jpeg but this is a direct quote.

"The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program which allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place."

According to Anning NZ is a hotbed of Muslim extremism?!

Don't read his manifesto, that's what he wants - arguments, divisions. Just ignore him and let him rot.

I see people in your media say "he's not Australian" and "this isn't what we stand for" yet your society made him and people like Fraser Anning and Pauline Hanson show that he's not a one off. Denying what you've created and sweeping him under the rug will do nothing.

You're saying that the media or the NZ governments reaction is playing into his hands, well you are too. Break the cycle, take a good long hard look at yourself and fix your society, and, most of all, ignore him.

This isn't about left versus right, this is about the hatred and dehuminisation of those who are different. Pure and simple, it's cowardice and anyone who's threatened by another culture is a coward.

Well said. Absolutely agree with ignoring his manifesto. Remember the victims.

I was thinking the perfect response would be to simply increase immigration and for NZ to keep on doing what it is doing.

In order to "fix society" its neccessary to understand what motivates these sort of people. 

Ignoring people like this and their views is exactly what wider western public and media have done. 

Exactly why they went under the radar.

-PB

No, his manifesto is a calculated attempt to radicalise and sew division. Just look at the people using it to justify keeping firearms because the manifest said that the government would behave this way. Because he predicted some reaction it's inherently wrong? These people who read this document don't realise they're sheep and they're being played.

We know the sort of bull that's going to be in it and reading it isn't going to lead us to any insights on how to deal with him. All it's doing is giving him a platform, encouraging people to read it and sharing it is just building his platform and sharing his hate.

The only way to stop this is to show empathy and to not tolerate any hate speech or racism at all. Your first duty as Australians is to stop the casual racism that's completely pervasive in your society. Your second duty is to show your politicians that you wont stand for this sort of behavior and vote out all the racists in your parliament, there won't be anyone left it seems but you've gotta start somewhere.

The only solution to this is to be nice to each other.

New Zealand has issues but we're trying harder than just about any other place to resolve race problems. I've never heard of any religious or race based hate crime other than petty small things, definitely none from our Muslim residents.

This person came here specifically because we're peaceful. Now the risk is that his actions will radicalise those that he attacked, his end goal is to create a race war.

It's incomprehensible, it's sickening.

Straight off the bat I do not subscribe to anything this clown has written down.

I read the manifesto and I think dismissing people like this bloke and saying just ignore him is a dangerous folly.  The arguments he presents are easily seductive for the disenfranchised.  I'm not surprised there are vast swathes of these people inhabiting forum boards and closed groups all over the internet that are supporting what he had to say. 

He's articulate, the manifesto seems to be fairly well structure, it's not riddled with spelling errors or unhinged ramblings and he sticks to his key points and he hammers them home. 

I'm not sure what the best approach is but ignoring these sorts of things will not make them go away.

Thousands, if not potentially 10's of thousands of people, would have read what he has written.  (The video was uploaded 1.5 million times to facebook.  Probably 100's of thousands of manifesto copies are doing the rounds as well.)  To just 'ignore' him and hope that these people will somehow disappear is deluded.

Terrorists want a platform, if we don't give them a platform they won't be as effective. Those who want to read the manifesto will seek it out, there's nothing we can do about that, but encouraging people to read it is frankly sick.

Of course as a society we, and you, need to fix whatever is causing these issues but we should focus on the victims not the terrorist.

Problem is, the internet is his platform. Even if mainstream media went silent on him today, he is still getting exposure. 

And there's no way to stop that.

-PB

Nope. But you can make it hard. The people who go out to find it are likely to be the people who go out and find that documentation anyway and are looking to be radicalised or to reaffirm their beliefs anyway.

Yep.  Just like pill testing.  Not providing it is not going to stop people from taking drugs.

I can see both sides though.

These 2 beetootas made me laugh.  Razor sharp as usual.

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/local-patriot-who-worships-ned-kelly-and-chopper-disgusted-by-egg-boys-civil-disobedience/

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/australia-left-in-shock-after-witnessing-sincere-and-competent-politician/

Mun I noticed this post and I picked up a few spelling errors so I hope you don't mind me correcting them.

Ok Rus.

i have not read the manifesto, but I do not see why reading it is problem at all.

Disgusted at what Senator Anning said but really no different from what the Greens, some in the Labor camp, and even folks on 442 have said in the past relating to terrorism.  I remember when the Sept 11 attacks occurred and a very fashionable thing to say at the time was to describe the attack as "the bully getting it's nose bloodied".  This wasn't some radical underground commies saying such things this was mainstream media outlets such as the Guardian.  Can you imagine if some figure on the Right used those same words to describe the Christchurch attack?  "Nothing to see here folks just Muslim extremists getting their nose bloodied"?

Similarly many on the left have sought to do exactly what Anning  did and project blame for the attack onto the victims.  Even the Council of Imams have in the past gotten in on the act seeking to conflate acts of terror with "causative factors such as racism, Islamophobia, curtailing freedoms through securitisation, duplicitous foreign policies and military intervention".   Why is it that the governing body of Australian Muslim leaders can get away with saying such things, yet Senator Anning is hung out to dry?  Is it only evil and disgusting when someone on the Right says it?

I guess my point is that what Senator Anning said was terrible and disgusting but he is no way the first to say it.  It has become somewhat culture among the Left to dispense outrage based on the racial and religious identity characteristics of victims and perpetrators involved in incidents of terror.  If the roles were reversed and the Christchurch attack was committed by a Muslim on a Christian church the usual suspects would be out in force doing their best to downplay the incident, arguing that these were the actions not of a Muslim but a madman and that disenfranchisement due to racism is the real cause.

lol

I stand refuted :(

Now watch Rusty claim the exact opposite.