This is the key point - he's in the pocket of the owners.

And who are about to take over the A-League?

And are they about to do anything which risks throwing them out of the top tier too easily?

Luckily for the owners, their man is at the head of the table and has their back!

with 40 teams in the top teir, they would be pushing out so much younger talent. its eye watering for us, and people think we are overpopulated too.

im jealous

yes. we have an advantage. something that has been widely criticised as a tool for those who dont want australia in the AFC. like most tools used politically it does not matter how much it pans out in reality.  it's a sticking point and fact - regardless of how poorly we perform.  think of all the other leagues that could be taking our places in the ACL.  

also the criticism of WSW taking a break in the a-league to play ACL was very real.  and fact is, WSW took their foot off the gas in the a-league.  it's basically cheating.

When Wanderers made the ACL final they also finished runners up in the league and made the GF on the way there

I'm pretty sure the AAFC have outlined they want to have a national second division up and running by 2020. 

Nogarotto among others were in attendance for a working group on the establishment (or re-structuring if you will) of the Australian football pyramid earlier this month. There wasn't any commitment from the FFA in terms of when a second division would be established, but he did say the work that had already been done by the AAFC, PFA & FFA would allow them to move on it "quite quickly" (his words). 

It caught up with them though. They won the ACL Nov 2014. During the 2014-15 HAL season they finished 9th (by 1 point). They were basically non existent that season with only 4 wins, 6 draws and 17 losses. The ACL absolutely destroyed them. I remember watching them play that season. It was clear they were physically (and mentally) exhausted and simply didn't recover from having to compete in the ACL. Whether it was a choice or not, hard to say, but it definitely had a negative effect on their HAL season.

Just on what Nikou has said, I believe he would be also expressing the opinions of the APFCA members (ie the club owners) who would not consider voting on pro/rel until 2034 when their licences run out. 

The whole thing is a ruse you see. What incentive do the A-league club owners have by green-lighting pro/rel? 

The decision of pro/rel should be made by a completely independent body devoid of vested interests. Unfortunately, that ain't going to happen.

So Nikou is right. 2034 = Keep dreaming. 

@someguyjc

Wanderers fell apart after the ACL final. Remembering they also competed in the Club World Cup as well shortly after the ACL win and they had rearranged games all over the place and probably played more weeks with 2 games in them than any club in our history.

The wheels fell off because they had a squad of only 20 adult players and because they were knacketed. To suggest HAL clubs have any advantage in the ACL is stretching imo

If i'm SMFC or some of the other clubs desperate to create a 2nd division, i would be talking to FIFA about why the FFA are preventing proper clubs from entering the league.

FFA are basically running a protection racket where the only way to enter the comp is to pay ridiculous fees and dance their tune.

FIFA need to investigate and threaten Australia's place in the AFC if they do not allow a 2nd division in the country within 5 years.

HAL would be lucky to last out the next 3 to 5 years.

It's a sinking ship. I lost interest in it a long time ago. I kept telling people, and thank fully you are seeing the light.

The defeatism will lead to certain defeat.

There is no vision. No grass roots and no club atmosphere.

This is a corporation owned pretty much by FOX

you are so disinterested yet you are still here constantly talking about it ...

The only reason the AAFC have been able to push the issue as far as it's got is by going around the FFA to the AFC and FIFA. The 'old' FFA had told FIFA there was no way to form a 2nd division due to a lack of desire from clubs outside the A-League.  The clubs made it clear to FIFA that this wasn't the case - that's when FIFA started to push the FFA re governance and the whole thing started to move ahead.

Absolute idiots running this game.

Spot on.

You can't, and won't, get that with the current Congress structure. It is aimed at getting vested interests fighting against each other. There is no overarching mechanism to weigh up each side of an issue and make the decision deemed best for the game. 

The former structure was closer to getting this, but lacked a genuine spread in the state's voting power which lead to Lowy family control over the FFA. The make up of the Congress should never be in the control of a handful of people from the state federations. There should be a larger number of representatives from a smaller breakdown, i.e. Northern NSW could be represented by a vote for each of the 7 associations that make up NNSWFF. Once you start breaking down the federation votes into a greater spread of voting, it makes it harder for any collection or individual to maintain control (i.e. Lowy Family). 

But most importantly, the grass roots should always be in 100% control of Australian Football. Everyone should get an equal say in electing the voting representative from their association, whether you are a male or female, player, coach, referee or an uber wealthy club owner. 

That's the thing with implementing rules like pro-rel it should be done by the FFA or Football League group like in England, right now the FFA can't sway the clubs and they will do as they please.

It's the club's and state feds game now.

Looks like we may need another reform in the future...

I believe the APFCA wants to set-up the A-league similarly to how the Premier League is set-up in England (ie it operates as a corporation where each of the founding clubs are shareholders with one vote each for any rule change). The EFL controls the 4 tiers below the EPL and then the FA controls all the non-professional levels below that. 

The reason why pro/rel is instituted in every league throughout Europe is that it's explicit in the UEFA statutes (Principle of Promotion and Relegation - Article 51):


This is also echoed in the AFC Statues [ARTICLE 7 PRINCIPLE OF PROMOTION AND RELEGATION]:


What the FFA or APFCA may argue is the next clause which stipulates:


It's essentially a get-out clause for the APFCA to state that the league is not ready for pro/rel for financial/infrastructure reasons. 

Furthermore:

There'll never be a perfect time to implement a second division and eventual pro/rel as it'll probably go backwards before it goes anywhere near forward. If that is acknowledged by all involved and they're committed to toughing it out then there's a greater chance of it taking off. 

The challenge for a second tier is not money or resources, it's changing a culture in Australia of sporting fans only being interested in the best of the best. Every one of our domestic competitions is a closed shop and has been for generations - you can't just expect that to change overnight. 

1) Focus on Expansion
2) Bring back active support. 

Otherwise there won't be a 2034 A League at all. 

The AFC can. So can the AAFC representing the NPL clubs. 

As it stands, the HAL is in breach of the AFC statutes. There is a moratorium on the HAL's membership to the AFC based on the current negotiations around the restructuring of the league and its governance. 

This has nothing to do with culture. 

That's a policy on a piece of paper... How does that translate to magically getting bums on seats and serious interest in a second division overnight??

This is what I mean by acknowledging the challenge of establishing 2nd Div/pro rel; the discussion rarely covers the potential downfalls and complications and it's all sugar coated as if to suggest that just by setting it up then it'll automatically be a roaring success...

how times change.......

Lowy promotes A-League relegation

• By Stephen Rielly
• TheAustralian
• 12:00AM October 22, 2009

FOOTBALL Federation Australia chairman Frank Lowy has outlined a "not too distant" domestic future for football that includes a second division, promotion, relegation and as many as 14 A-League clubs.

A day after the AFL announced the terms on which an 18th team from western Sydney will enter its competition in 2012, Lowy spoke in Melbourne, the heartland of the indigenous game, of the FFA's own grand plans for expansion.

He said that while consolidation of the A-League was necessary -- the competition has just grown from eight to 10 teams, yet Adelaide is without an owner and North Queensland is trying to replace a major backer -- expansion of the not five-year-old league was the greater priority.

"I'm very optimistic about the A-League. We now have 10 teams, next year there will be 11 and the year after 12, hopefully growing to 14 over time," Lowy said.

"These teams are being supported by a youth league and in the not-too-distant future a second division which will allow for promotion and relegation, the lifeblood of national football competitions around the world.

"Some people have suggested this might be growing the league too quickly. I accept that it is not without risk and I know better than anyone just how fragile some of our A-League clubs are."But we could not continue forever with an eight-team competition and be taken seriously in the world of football."

There are people who would never believe he could have said that.

What do you believe are the actual and explicit impediments to the promotion and relegation of clubs based on merit across all the divisions within Australia?

My only one is based on geographical isolation which will result in the necessity of the states being effectively conferences below the national 2nd division (and future national 3rd division) due to the effective financial constraints on clubs without both the ambition and resources to compete nationally more than a few times a year via success in the FFA Cup.

I honestly cannot see a single other credible restriction on the use of promotion and relegation as a method of determining the clubs that are best placed at representing Australia at the pinnacle of the sport within this country. 

It's not just a policy or a "piece of paper". It's a binding agreement. The AFC can turn around tomorrow and suspend the HAL until it complies. 

NPL teams have shown consistently in the FFA Cup to get good crowds to their games.

The community support is there, the infrastructure is there. It's only the foundation HAL clubs and some agitators at the FFA that are doing all the fear mongering. 

Many of the HAL teams were established out of thin air and managed to garner investment. Many of the old NSL clubs looking to gain entry into Div2 and eventual promotion will do the same. 

Given the article date, I call bullshit on this "exactly 10 years from now" we see associated with P/R

As for those who can't believe he would have said that, the FFA pre season 6 and post season 6 are two very different FFAs. Post season 6 was essentially the AFL / NRL administrators saying "we tried things your way, now lets do things the proper way"

I never had a problem with the FFA until after season 6 when our game took massive backwards strides and decided to shove the AFL / NRL model down our throats

That and killing active support.  It took the stupid fuckers years before they called out the media for their shit coverage of football in Australia when it came to the most minor crowd trouble and by then it was too late.

Thought I'd come up with a list of everything the FFA have delivered since season 6:
. October kick off
. All Stars and mandatory player clause to play for All Stars
. $250k fee to play against international team
. Concessions for WSW
. 20 year license extension for A League clubs
. Rigged FFA cup where lower team gets guaranteed semi berth
. Marquee fund
. Cahill guest player rule
. Killing off active support
. Face off, State of Origin colours, Star Wars round
. Push for commercial FTA including devaluing Fox deal to give away premium Saturday content (note: "free to air" shouldnt mean cost for broadcaster)
. Consolidation instead of expansion for 2 consecutive TV deals
. Revamped top 6 system to cement it (first time top team doesnt get second chance)
. FIFA intervention
. Losing two coaches before the World Cup (Socceroos and Matildas) (*Farina doesnt count as there were qualification games left)
. Uneven draw (19/20 season)
. VAR (also, first time major rule change during season)
. Fish where the fish are (aka say no to regional teams)

Star Wars round? Oh, you have it.

People like us are diehards though so of course we will support it, but we are few and far between. As is being seen with the A-League right now, it's pretty much only the die hards that are left but it's not enough. Citing FFA cup attendance for NPL clubs is like citing GF and finals figures - they're one offs. If the league and a 2nd tier is to grow to the heights it needs to exist healthily then we need the casual football fans and general sporting public to come back like they were for a while (think 2012-13 through to 2014/15). 

It is that same demographic that are used to viewing sport that is the top tier and nothing else (NRL, AFL etc). Christ, the general sporting public are flat out maintaining support for a top tier team simply having a poor season, do you think they're going to care if their team gets relegated?. Average Aussies are snobs, they are not going to have the same enthusiasm for a second division straight away and probably not for a while, that we would. It's easy to dismiss them as not true football fans but given our relatively small population, the league relies on these people for growth. The process, binding agreements etc don't mean jack shit if not enough people are interested to actually sustain what's being implemented.