As I said, M1 reportedly reopened before midday today.

But yeah - something something people couldn't get to the game...
 

I thought the weather in Brisbane was fine, reckon conditions would of put a few people off but that number is ok for a Phoenix game with an inconsistent team. The stadium is the only bad thing. I don’t mind watching most teams but that stadium just doesn’t work and it is why crowds become an issue. Similiar numbers to Adelaide on Friday but a much better spectacle.

I would have thought getting just on 10k is not too bad

"OK, nobody will believe its a 10k crowd, but it needs to be close. How about we decide on 9...9...um...8...um...7. Yeah that'll do"

This was a Saturday evening kick off which is traditionally the weakest match time, against Wellington, in miserable conditions, with roads closed

I guess everybody was dressed up as an empty seat

4PM is typically a popular time for Roar crowds, a large potion of the attendance is always kids and families 

I would have said there was more in yesterday than the previous week - not by much, but the family zone had more in it and the members area was more tightly packed. 

Dolphin Oval proved that to Roar management.

There’s no doubt in my mind Roar would regularly sell out a 15k stadium 

suncorp doesn’t work for tv but it’s still one of the best stadiums to be at live, to get too and from, and to eat/drink before and after a game. 

The views are fantastic, but personally I find it hard to get excited about seeing a game in a 4/5 empty barn, and a lot of other people feel the same way.

No solution in sight though.

10k simply disappears in Suncorp, and everyone sits on the same side as the cameras.

I agree it looks terrible and is a significant problem.  Games at Suncorp are always dire tv experiences.  It takes a grand final to scrub the place up.

People, we come back to the issue all the time, and it is THE biggest issue negatively affecting the League - the stadiums.  TV audiences tune in and see empty seats, row up on row.  It kills the optics and it looks like no one cares.  It is a huge tv audience issue and a  major game day experience issue.

To put it colloquially, as long as teams keep playing out of ludicrously oversized stadiums, the League is fucked.

Wanderers new pad is too big and the best optics in the League is now cactus.  SFS is going to be wildly too big for Sydney.  Victory at Etihad is an optics trainwreck.  Perth isn't good. Newy is terrible.  Suncorp - well, we've covered that.  City at AAMI is dire.  Wellington is arguably the worst of the lot.

The only good fits are Hindmarsh and Victory at AAMI.  

In other words, around 6.5 per cent of games are played in stadiums where the game looks acceptable on television.  TV is where the money comes from.  This is a massive, massive problem.

The original Frank Lowy era argument was that crowds would gradually grow into the bigger stadiums.  Obviously that hasn't happened, and there is nothing at all to suggest that it will in the foreseeable future.  The clubs really need to look at ways to address this problem.  

It may be a moot point, because there is no way in hell that the next tv deal will be even close to this one, so playing out of expensive, oversized stadiums may well disappear with the tv money.  

I guess it's a fine line between playing at a stadium which suits the current numbers, and planning for future growth in the sport.

15k at Suncorp is really not that bad. And you would think very achievable, if only the club would pull their fingers out and show just a little ambition. Instead, with this whole half-arsed Redcliffe thing, they've now basically said they're a 10k crowd, not unlike Clive did with his 5k cap, and the people of Brisbane are responding accordingly.

Jesus. BankWest is 30k with safe standing ends. 

The problem is that in equalising the league all teams are as big as your smallest team and so obviously any stadium bigger than 10-15k is too big. SFC and Brisbane and WSW should be able to average 30k but only if you have a product and players to justify it.

So do we remove the shackles on growth or do we all move into smaller suburban stadia?

I agree with the negative affect of empty stadiums but disagree with the point that only 2 sides in the league are within correctly sized stadiums. 

Wellington, Brisbane and Western (Also Marvel for Victory) are the only clubs who I believe need adjustment. Each other club just needs to look towards there marketing and communicate with the league on how to better suit games with their communities.

An easy one, would be Perth, they would most definelty draw larger numbers if they did not have there games set to be played on saturday at 7:30pm eastern (4:30PM Perth) or on a sunday at 6:30PM (3:30PM Perth). Adjusting there fixtures to the later 9:45PM time slot would be much more encourgaing for the people over there and the later time would improve the heat issues, therefore improving quality.

WSW are just dreadful to watch right now and the RBB is yet to truely return. Personally I think they should get rid of the safe standing for a game or two and then let the people who actually get involved heavily to do so themselves. Also if they had an improvement in results and moved away from there current boring football, its likely the bandwagon effects could easily bolster crowd numbers big time and for a longer term with an improved atmosphere likely to retain the newer people attending.

Teams like Sydney and City need to work on there marketing and engaging with people to attend the matches and support the clubs. (Especially when Sydney move back), its not the stadiums that really the issue there. Its the awareness and true size of the proper following and supporter base.

Also overall I would rather have some room for growth at clubs. instead of decreasing the numbers or locking at a fixed point. But yes certain stadiums are far to big and will most likely never see enough growth but this is not a league wide issue.

The man makes a good point wsw used to average 20k. Even Melbourne city were getting over 10k a few years ago 

WSW did not “used to average 20k”. 

This is the debate we need to have ....

My point is that future growth is driven by appropriate stadiums with postive tv optics and a positive matchday experience.

The A League has been shrinking on all metrics for 6 seasons now.  There is no growth, and the stadium issue is a major reason why.

What I was addressing is they aren't.

the tendency for some people to treat WSW crowds as an exaggerated golden age is very annoying

I agree that there are a raft of issues and a range of responses, and certainly dumping the salary cap should have already been done.  My concern is that it is now too late for this action, even if applied next season, to have any positive effect on a new potential tv deal.

A venue can cost $180m and 2-3 years to build

If a team is averaging 10k, they will typically look at a 12k-15k venue. If they are averaging 15k, they will typically look at 15k-17k

Given the radical variances between attendances from match to match, and season to season, how can any team come up with a suitable sized venue like people on this forum want

In fact you already see posts about how easy it is for teams to get a loan and simply pay it off over 100 years. Do you really think a team getting 10k-12k today will be getting 10k-12k 100 years from now?

This is seriously the biggest non issue going around at the moment. Football teams simply have to support the existing infrastructure. For metro teams that's usually going to be 30k-50k. For regional teams that might be 15k-25k

If people are unhappy with metro teams getting 10k-12k, then as Eldar says, the league shouldn't be squeezing them down to the size of the regional teams. Guaranteed if Brisbane fielded an ambitious team and were a big club by Australian standards they wouldn't be looking at Dolphin park. Even in the early days of the league they were hitting 17k with more regularity than they do now

I’m having a hard time buying the everyone sits on the camera side at suncorp argument, whilst this appeared the case once upon a time, every time they show a shot of the bench from the other angle you see nothing but empty on that side. Realistically when you look at the 4 corners of the ground...none exceed 2k.

17k was rarer than you seem to think.

I could not disagree more strongly, obviously, with your view that this is non issue.  It is a red hot issue.  What is going to happen when the tv deal is halved - which realistically is the best the A League can hope for?

Why do you assume construction of new stadiums?  What about staged renovations of existing venues?  All options have to be considered, because if the tv money halves, at least, then Roar can forget about Suncorp, WSW about Bankwest, and Sydney about the new SFS, for starters.

Trust me, it is the case. This is why you can have 10k there and on tv the stadium looks empty.

Spot on, there's loads of evidence out there that shows that atmosphere and attendance at games affects the viewers perception of how good a football match is - i.e. you play the exact same game of football in a 3/4 empty stadium and another in a sellout and people will perceive the sold-out match to be of higher quality. 

When you're trying to sell sport to people, you're not just selling the physical act of kicking a ball into a net. You're selling the whole experience, the atmosphere, the noise, the rivalries and the stories of the season. Playing in empty husks of stadiums absolutely kills all of this. 

Well put.

As you say, plenty of evidence there.

The football, as you note, is only part of the equation.

My understanding is that Adelaide have one of the worst venue deals where as MV have one of the best at Marvel. Pretty sure Sydney have a pretty good deal at SFS also

Whether a club gets a good deal depends on the number of tenants. If we are a smaller summer alternative sport then venues would rather charge us less for the summer filler than do without

The problem with being the only professional tenant in a small venue is you'll end up copping the biggest rent and that then gets passed on to the fans. Also, as much as people like to think 15k in a 50k venue translates to 15k in a 17k venue, the fact is the first is all general admission where as the second requires fans to buy higher category tickets. That's why when teams move from a big venue to a small venue that can accommodate the attendance, the attendances are still even smaller

Playing out of existing infrastructure puts our game at a better advantage, particularly as its familiar to fans who also frequent other sports, and supported by public transports systems etc... as described above for Suncorp

Queensland teams always get a raw deal when it comes to venues except for AFL teams. This wont change. But for most teams the most supported venue that offers them the best rent is the best option. If a lack of interest makes this look bad, its unlikely we have a big TV deal coming our way regardless

I honestly think we are looking at different elements of the same issue rather than disagreeing.

It is anyone's guess what happens after this tv deal expires.    Certainly are interesting times coming up.

6020 for Western United v CCM, even with free tickets thats all they get, another disappointing number