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AJF
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+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve.
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Muz
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+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve. You don't have to keep labelling me a 'lefty'. I'm not sure why you think that's an insult or even necessary. I don't call you or BB right wingers but if it helps delineate our separate positions then continue. In any case we're pretty much on the same page. Besides being happy to wear a mask when asked I've said time and time again we need to all get vaccinated sooner rather than later (say 70%) and then open up accepting there'll be deaths.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? AJF is anti-cloth mask and pro-disposable mask based on the earlier discussion. Yeah I misspoke when I said anti vaxx. I meant anti mask, anti lockdown, anti restrictions
Member since 2008.
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tsf
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Is there anyone pro cloth mask? I mean it’s like asking people to use mesh condoms.
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paladisious
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89% of Australians polled three days ago have had or want to have a vaccine: https://essentialvision.com.au/uptake-of-a-covid-19-vaccine-11Interesting to see stronger support for the anti lockdown protesters from Greens voters than either of the big two parties: https://essentialvision.com.au/stance-on-anti-lockdown-protestsViews from each state on how their state government has handled the latest outbreak: https://essentialvision.com.au/state-government-handling-of-latest-covid-19-outbreaks38% saying the federal government has done a good job with covid, 35% say bad, and 28% neither: https://essentialvision.com.au/federal-government-response-to-covid-19-15
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paladisious
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Hopefully we can get to 89% vaccinated soon.
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bluebird2
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWhy do we always go back to the mask debate? It's pointless. This is a real world situation hitting every Australian every day. People managing their own mental health is critical for getting through an unprecedented situation. Being able to jump, kick, scream and yell in a cave is better than suppressing thoughts and feelings because it isnt popular opinion of the select few People like myself and AJF have been hit with 12 consecutive months of pointless (as you correctly pointed out) mask laws with no end in sight. If you want to be helpful then simply agree if you dont have a strong opinion on the other side of the argument because nothing can be more helpful or reassuring than somebody knowing they arent alone or being irrational in their suffering Face masks might seem like a tiny insignificant thing that cost a few cents and are a piece of cake to wear, but they do take their toll when regulated by force in month after month after month. Especially when piled on top of everything else Australia needs to scale back its response because it is absolutely ridiculous and they arent saving anything for an actual emergency Can you elaborate upon why masks are a mental health issue? I can understand how prolonged lockdowns may be an issue, but I can't see it being the same issue for masks. Inconvenient - yes, but I don't understand why it is more than that. Imagine being a high school kid with a 30 minute bus ride to school. Every day you have to don a mask on the bus ride, wear it in class for up to 4 hours, and wear it home. 5 days a week, however many weeks a year. Day in day out, no reprieve, and there is nothing you can do about it. Same for those who go to work Imagine being a single where you legally cant have anybody over and you have to wear a mask at all times outside. You are literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face If you live in a supported household with a family / partner / kids or whatever thats great. But there are 500,000 Victorians living in a single household that have no meaningful emotional engagement. No smiles, no comfort. And for those who dont live in a supported household (sexual assaults and domestic violence is up by the way) they are also trapped. And I havent even begun talking about those with mental health issues, or somebody borderline suicide who wants to go for a walk to unwind but first has to muzzle themselves Australia has never been about laws for the sake of law. If you think face masks are a small inconvenience then dont stop wearing one. Take the current Victorian mask rules and do them for the rest of the year and all of next year too Face masks in our situation are just pointless. Not only that but there is irrefutable evidence a % of the population breaks social distancing when wearing masks, or that people are more inclined to catch up behind closed doors than go out when there are mask laws in place They arent anywhere near as important and effective you think they are. Those experiments everybody is referring to wouldnt even pass a year 7 science class. For the balance of controlling an outbreak and giving people some kind of options face masks are an easy thing to simply make optional. Australia could easily get the same outcome with 4 or 5 restrictions than 30 or 40 In NSW, there is no outdoor mask requirement (except for the specified LGAs), but in Victoria, there a general mandate but it seems like there are a lot of exceptions: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/face-masks-when-wear-face-mask. To say that you are "literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face" is a bit of a stretch. I agree that it's frustrating because it seems to go on indefinitely, which is why we should have pushed hard for vaccinations. As for single households, there is the "singles bubble", so there is the Government is trying to manage that but all of those issues, including the ones relating to mental health are connected to the lockdowns, not masks. For lockdowns, I agree that these are major problems that the Government needs to provide support for. At the end of the day, you don't think masks work at all. I don't think anyone is able to convince you otherwise. Again, it's pointless to discuss. Sorry but thats not true. There are 3 or 4 general exceptions for face masks including under 12, mental health, eating / drinking, or strenuous exercise. Aside from that Victoria have added working alone. Thats it. Nobody else should be allowed to be outside of their immediate household without a mask Secondly the single bubble doesnt exist outside of a lockdown. When laws permit meeting each other outside then there is no need for a single bubble. Victoria currently prohibits any household visitors and lets people catch up outside (with masks). So aside from eating / drinking, single people by the letter of the law are not allowed to see faces (rules extended by 1 week today) I never said masks dont work at all. They are vital in health care situations. They can also cut 10% of overall transmission for countries with high levels of infections but no other mandates Australia already has quarantine, contact tracing and social distancing with 90% compliance. Face masks dont add anything to that especially since they arent regulated to any kind of standard in the general public. This is a highly contagious variant that is even forcing people to rethink the structure of restaurants. There is no chance the average Joe is wearing the correct 3 plied face mask, applied by the handles, no touching the cloth, single use only only to prevent fabric stretching. Even then you end up with something that is 30%-70% effective when they should be social distancing anyway which is closer to 100% Ok. So what is your position on face mask use in the community setting? Not at all (since we have other measures like quarantine and social distancing)? Yes. That is 100% my position. If you look at the initial federal lockdown that set the benchmark for how a lockdown should play out, masks were no more than a recommendation. Yet that was able to drive down 4500 patient zero cases to a handful a day within a 4 week period I'm going to make 3 points and I'll try to be concise 1/ You are already asking people to give up their jobs (some permanently), drop out of school, stop sports, isolate for 2 weeks when required, line up for hours testing, and even get vaccinated. Why not balance this out with a bit of reprieve where sensible? Give people options instead of throwing everything at them that can legally be thrown at them. They will simply respond like Sydney did 2/ 80% of transmission is household to household or work place or shared facilities that cannot be stopped by masks. If you accept masks can stop 30% of activity than thats 6% of total transmission. 15 daily cases in Sydney, 6 total cases for Melbourne's third lockdown, 3 for SA's first lockdown and a divide by zero error for ACT. I can understand why the USA or UK with different daily numbers and ratios might mandate their use but in the balance of point 1 why piss people off for the sake of a handful of infections. There is no need to double down and triple down on everything 3/ Masks dont have to be mandatory. Stats have shown 30% uptake when no outbreak and over 60% uptake when there is. Even without mandated usage there is still some sort of herd immunity in whatever impact they are going to have especially in conjunction with everything else in place In the balance of things masks arent doing anything. We didnt close down the shorelines just so we can live behind the same restrictions as the hardest hit countries. 4 or 5 restrictions is better than 10 or 20. People are already being asked to do too much, way more than they have ever had to give up in any other disaster. People have demonstrated beyond doubt a level of compliance and hard work that is unrivaled in any other country. The line has to be drawn somewhere and the average Joe's face mask usage is the least useful 1/ Why not throw everything at it so we can end the lockdowns faster? 2/ Masks are not mandated in the household, so that's not an issue 3/ Where are you getting these percentages from? 1/ Why not give people 2 vaccinations today so we can get through vaccinations faster? Same logic. There comes a point where a restriction added has no positive impact, and a point where it has a negative impact. Every outbreak takes time to control and this notion of getting through it faster by hitting people with everything is flawed 2/ Thats the point. Face masks cant stop 80% of transmission, and are only effective for an estimated 30% of the rest, assuming those wearing it have met the same lab conditions as the links you posted last year 3/ I have read them from different sources and I'm trusting my memory. I'm not going all out with hard sources for what has become a round circles debate
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Muz
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How the hell can anyone, let alone 38% say the federal government has done a good job? From fucking up aged care outbreaks which still account for the majority of covid deaths, to quarantine and the lack of it, not securing enough vaccines and mixed messaging it's been an absolute shitshow from start to finish. I'm assuming those 38% are rusted on, Scomo could eat a child, and they'd still vote for the coalition types.
Member since 2008.
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Podiacide
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I'll guarantee you we wont get to 89% of adults. Like the polls for brexit, Trump and SCOMO there is a significant 5 to 10% difference to what people will tell pollsters (socially acceptable opinions) and what they'll actually do. So if its 80% of adults then that means 5-7 million unvaccinated (if we dont vaccinate under 16's) Then they'll demand we vaccinate the kids - delaying opening up even further Its laughable but its clear as day. We will vaccinate really fast in the next 2 months which will placate the angry public in lockdowns right now but then we'll hit the 70-80% of adults mark and we then be stuck in no mans land - high enough that a lot of people demand we open but low enough that the likelihood of a shitload of cases and deaths in unvaccinated. Election likely to be held around March 2022 - if you think that SCOMO will risk cases and deaths in the lead up to an election you're very optimistic. He will make election promises about opening up bla bla but no way will he open up before the election and no way will it open up straight after the election. June 2022 at the absolute earliest for open international borders
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AJF
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+x+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve. You don't have to keep labelling me a 'lefty'. I'm not sure why you think that's an insult or even necessary. Sorry, I must have mistaken that crack you & others made about Briebart and the CNN video.
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paladisious
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+xHow the hell can anyone, let alone 38% say the federal government has done a good job? From fucking up aged care outbreaks which still account for the majority of covid deaths, to quarantine and the lack of it, not securing enough vaccines and mixed messaging it's been an absolute shitshow from start to finish. I'm assuming those 38% are rusted on, Scomo could eat a child, and they'd still vote for the coalition types. Scomo's Hillsong pastor who he tried to get an invite to the White House for is currently facing charges of covering up for paedos, not too far off.
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
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Really interesting article from Germany discussing their situation with vaccination and moving into autumn/winter without the desired herd immunity. I have included a fair few key points below with link to entire article (which is really long but worth the read). The New COVID-19 Normal Herd Immunity is Impossible. Now What? Faced with declining vaccination rates and persistent skepticism, Germany is now preparing for another autumn of living with COVID-19. Politicians are looking at several measures, including air purifiers for schools, compulsory testing for travelers and a pro-vaccine ad blitz. 21.07.2021, 12.12 Uhr People in Berlin’s government district are currently saying a farewell – a slow, quiet farewell, with no statements, no press release, a farewell that can no longer be stopped. And it will have consequences for the months to come, maybe even years. It is a farewell to an illusion. In other words, about the goal of immunizing so many people against the virus that it loses almost any capacity to threaten us. It would be the end of the pandemic, a triumph over COVID-19. That was the plan, the hope. The illusion. "I unfortunately can hardly imagine at this point that we will reach herd immunity,” Lauterbach says, adding that the vaccination rate is already decreasing and that cases are going up again. The percentage of people who have been fully vaccinated stands at 47 percent. Lauterbach has abandoned the illusion. Spahn must also now understand that there will be no herd immunity by the fall. So, what now? One participant at the video conference reported that alternatives and consequences had been discussed at the meeting. "The models show that even if we reach a vaccination rate of 75 percent and assume that 10 percent can still get infected despite full protection, we won’t be able to manage without contact restrictions,” one person argued. A return to contact restrictions? Despite well-functioning vaccination distribution? Even though there is enough vaccine available for everyone? Things are not going the way they were meant to. Not reaching herd immunity means things won’t end now, or probably ever. Germany needs to prepare for a further autumn, and probably also a winter, with the virus. The delta variant is already putting an early end to the carefree summer. Numerous leaders have said there will not be another lockdown. "Very soon, anyone who wants to get vaccinated will be able to do so,” says Thuringia’s governor, Bodo Ramelow of the Left Party. "We should return to a form of normalcy in the autumn – also recognizing the variants, which are spreading more aggressively.” It's like a war that the leadership recognizes cannot be won. We will have to learn to live with the enemy, somehow, and hope that it behaves peacefully. Vaccination euphoria has seemingly given way to vaccine fatigue, and despite all the efforts and appeals, part of the population still doesn’t want to get vaccinated. The key question is how big that segment of the population will be. And how much of it can still be persuaded or pressured to get vaccinated. The number of vaccination shots being administered each day has been declining for weeks, and many appointments are not being kept. https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/herd-immunity-is-impossible-now-what-a-35335ea0-5ab2-4e3d-95e5-f2672b817056
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johnszasz
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+xIs there anyone pro cloth mask? I mean it’s like asking people to use mesh condoms. First 10 months they were supported in Germany and the government instructed manufacturers to go nuts and make millions in all styles etc. Come November they then made medical ones mandatory and all the businesses making ones from fabrics etc were left with useless products.
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johnszasz
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+xReally interesting article from Germany discussing their situation with vaccination and moving into autumn/winter without the desired herd immunity. I have included a fair few key points below with link to entire article (which is really long but worth the read). The New COVID-19 Normal Herd Immunity is Impossible. Now What? Faced with declining vaccination rates and persistent skepticism, Germany is now preparing for another autumn of living with COVID-19. Politicians are looking at several measures, including air purifiers for schools, compulsory testing for travelers and a pro-vaccine ad blitz. 21.07.2021, 12.12 Uhr People in Berlin’s government district are currently saying a farewell – a slow, quiet farewell, with no statements, no press release, a farewell that can no longer be stopped. And it will have consequences for the months to come, maybe even years. It is a farewell to an illusion. In other words, about the goal of immunizing so many people against the virus that it loses almost any capacity to threaten us. It would be the end of the pandemic, a triumph over COVID-19. That was the plan, the hope. The illusion. "I unfortunately can hardly imagine at this point that we will reach herd immunity,” Lauterbach says, adding that the vaccination rate is already decreasing and that cases are going up again. The percentage of people who have been fully vaccinated stands at 47 percent. Lauterbach has abandoned the illusion. Spahn must also now understand that there will be no herd immunity by the fall. So, what now? One participant at the video conference reported that alternatives and consequences had been discussed at the meeting. "The models show that even if we reach a vaccination rate of 75 percent and assume that 10 percent can still get infected despite full protection, we won’t be able to manage without contact restrictions,” one person argued. A return to contact restrictions? Despite well-functioning vaccination distribution? Even though there is enough vaccine available for everyone? Things are not going the way they were meant to. Not reaching herd immunity means things won’t end now, or probably ever. Germany needs to prepare for a further autumn, and probably also a winter, with the virus. The delta variant is already putting an early end to the carefree summer. Numerous leaders have said there will not be another lockdown. "Very soon, anyone who wants to get vaccinated will be able to do so,” says Thuringia’s governor, Bodo Ramelow of the Left Party. "We should return to a form of normalcy in the autumn – also recognizing the variants, which are spreading more aggressively.” It's like a war that the leadership recognizes cannot be won. We will have to learn to live with the enemy, somehow, and hope that it behaves peacefully. Vaccination euphoria has seemingly given way to vaccine fatigue, and despite all the efforts and appeals, part of the population still doesn’t want to get vaccinated. The key question is how big that segment of the population will be. And how much of it can still be persuaded or pressured to get vaccinated. The number of vaccination shots being administered each day has been declining for weeks, and many appointments are not being kept. https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/herd-immunity-is-impossible-now-what-a-35335ea0-5ab2-4e3d-95e5-f2672b817056 Massive vaccine oversupply here now. Happened quickly with Biontech delivering 3m a week and 10m a week when I got my first. Fairground halls and mobile trucks are offering it to anyone who turns up now. Not to say it's been smooth. It took forever for the GP to get it. The daily rate per day at the fairgrounds was massively under capacity. The GP has rapidly improved the process.
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Podiacide
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+x+xHow the hell can anyone, let alone 38% say the federal government has done a good job? From fucking up aged care outbreaks which still account for the majority of covid deaths, to quarantine and the lack of it, not securing enough vaccines and mixed messaging it's been an absolute shitshow from start to finish. I'm assuming those 38% are rusted on, Scomo could eat a child, and they'd still vote for the coalition types. Scomo's Hillsong pastor who he tried to get an invite to the White House for is currently facing charges of covering up for paedos, not too far off. every incumbent state government has been wildly succesful at the ballot box Morrison is trying to thread the needle - go to polls when vaccination levels are high and we are looking good, but before we open up and the chaos of an exit wave. Thats his only hope. I think it will blow up in his face but lack of a strong ALP means its not certain he will lose.
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.7K,
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+x+x+xHow the hell can anyone, let alone 38% say the federal government has done a good job? From fucking up aged care outbreaks which still account for the majority of covid deaths, to quarantine and the lack of it, not securing enough vaccines and mixed messaging it's been an absolute shitshow from start to finish. I'm assuming those 38% are rusted on, Scomo could eat a child, and they'd still vote for the coalition types. Scomo's Hillsong pastor who he tried to get an invite to the White House for is currently facing charges of covering up for paedos, not too far off. every incumbent state government has been wildly succesful at the ballot box Morrison is trying to thread the needle - go to polls when vaccination levels are high and we are looking good, but before we open up and the chaos of an exit wave. Thats his only hope. I think it will blow up in his face but lack of a strong ALP means its not certain he will lose. Same problem federally as there is in Vic, many people would vote Dictator Dan out but the alternative is actually worse.
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mcjules
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+x+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve. You don't have to keep labelling me a 'lefty'. I'm not sure why you think that's an insult or even necessary. I don't call you or BB right wingers but if it helps delineate our separate positions then continue. In any case we're pretty much on the same page. Besides being happy to wear a mask when asked I've said time and time again we need to all get vaccinated sooner rather than later (say 70%) and then open up accepting there'll be deaths. It's so odd because I don't think anyone on this forum has a view that we should continue doing lockdowns once vaccinations are widely available and everyone has had an opportunity to get vaccinated. It's going to frustrate me no end but I also don't believe we'll hit the targets. It's important to have them to encourage people, we need as many incentives that are feasible to get as close as possible to herd immunity. If we don't we still need to open up but there are going to be largely preventable deaths to people who have done the right thing by the morons who won't get vaccinated without having a medical reason not to. The other frustration, is that my 2 children under 12 will not have any protection at all when we open up and while deaths are pretty rare in that cohort, long covid is definitely a thing for them.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
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+xI'll guarantee you we wont get to 89% of adults. Like the polls for brexit, Trump and SCOMO there is a significant 5 to 10% difference to what people will tell pollsters (socially acceptable opinions) and what they'll actually do. So if its 80% of adults then that means 5-7 million unvaccinated (if we dont vaccinate under 16's) Then they'll demand we vaccinate the kids - delaying opening up even further Its laughable but its clear as day. We will vaccinate really fast in the next 2 months which will placate the angry public in lockdowns right now but then we'll hit the 70-80% of adults mark and we then be stuck in no mans land - high enough that a lot of people demand we open but low enough that the likelihood of a shitload of cases and deaths in unvaccinated. Election likely to be held around March 2022 - if you think that SCOMO will risk cases and deaths in the lead up to an election you're very optimistic. He will make election promises about opening up bla bla but no way will he open up before the election and no way will it open up straight after the election. June 2022 at the absolute earliest for open international borders
He's wedged. If he opens up, there will be deaths. If he stays locked down, people get angry.
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWhy do we always go back to the mask debate? It's pointless. This is a real world situation hitting every Australian every day. People managing their own mental health is critical for getting through an unprecedented situation. Being able to jump, kick, scream and yell in a cave is better than suppressing thoughts and feelings because it isnt popular opinion of the select few People like myself and AJF have been hit with 12 consecutive months of pointless (as you correctly pointed out) mask laws with no end in sight. If you want to be helpful then simply agree if you dont have a strong opinion on the other side of the argument because nothing can be more helpful or reassuring than somebody knowing they arent alone or being irrational in their suffering Face masks might seem like a tiny insignificant thing that cost a few cents and are a piece of cake to wear, but they do take their toll when regulated by force in month after month after month. Especially when piled on top of everything else Australia needs to scale back its response because it is absolutely ridiculous and they arent saving anything for an actual emergency Can you elaborate upon why masks are a mental health issue? I can understand how prolonged lockdowns may be an issue, but I can't see it being the same issue for masks. Inconvenient - yes, but I don't understand why it is more than that. Imagine being a high school kid with a 30 minute bus ride to school. Every day you have to don a mask on the bus ride, wear it in class for up to 4 hours, and wear it home. 5 days a week, however many weeks a year. Day in day out, no reprieve, and there is nothing you can do about it. Same for those who go to work Imagine being a single where you legally cant have anybody over and you have to wear a mask at all times outside. You are literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face If you live in a supported household with a family / partner / kids or whatever thats great. But there are 500,000 Victorians living in a single household that have no meaningful emotional engagement. No smiles, no comfort. And for those who dont live in a supported household (sexual assaults and domestic violence is up by the way) they are also trapped. And I havent even begun talking about those with mental health issues, or somebody borderline suicide who wants to go for a walk to unwind but first has to muzzle themselves Australia has never been about laws for the sake of law. If you think face masks are a small inconvenience then dont stop wearing one. Take the current Victorian mask rules and do them for the rest of the year and all of next year too Face masks in our situation are just pointless. Not only that but there is irrefutable evidence a % of the population breaks social distancing when wearing masks, or that people are more inclined to catch up behind closed doors than go out when there are mask laws in place They arent anywhere near as important and effective you think they are. Those experiments everybody is referring to wouldnt even pass a year 7 science class. For the balance of controlling an outbreak and giving people some kind of options face masks are an easy thing to simply make optional. Australia could easily get the same outcome with 4 or 5 restrictions than 30 or 40 In NSW, there is no outdoor mask requirement (except for the specified LGAs), but in Victoria, there a general mandate but it seems like there are a lot of exceptions: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/face-masks-when-wear-face-mask. To say that you are "literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face" is a bit of a stretch. I agree that it's frustrating because it seems to go on indefinitely, which is why we should have pushed hard for vaccinations. As for single households, there is the "singles bubble", so there is the Government is trying to manage that but all of those issues, including the ones relating to mental health are connected to the lockdowns, not masks. For lockdowns, I agree that these are major problems that the Government needs to provide support for. At the end of the day, you don't think masks work at all. I don't think anyone is able to convince you otherwise. Again, it's pointless to discuss. Sorry but thats not true. There are 3 or 4 general exceptions for face masks including under 12, mental health, eating / drinking, or strenuous exercise. Aside from that Victoria have added working alone. Thats it. Nobody else should be allowed to be outside of their immediate household without a mask Secondly the single bubble doesnt exist outside of a lockdown. When laws permit meeting each other outside then there is no need for a single bubble. Victoria currently prohibits any household visitors and lets people catch up outside (with masks). So aside from eating / drinking, single people by the letter of the law are not allowed to see faces (rules extended by 1 week today) I never said masks dont work at all. They are vital in health care situations. They can also cut 10% of overall transmission for countries with high levels of infections but no other mandates Australia already has quarantine, contact tracing and social distancing with 90% compliance. Face masks dont add anything to that especially since they arent regulated to any kind of standard in the general public. This is a highly contagious variant that is even forcing people to rethink the structure of restaurants. There is no chance the average Joe is wearing the correct 3 plied face mask, applied by the handles, no touching the cloth, single use only only to prevent fabric stretching. Even then you end up with something that is 30%-70% effective when they should be social distancing anyway which is closer to 100% Ok. So what is your position on face mask use in the community setting? Not at all (since we have other measures like quarantine and social distancing)? Yes. That is 100% my position. If you look at the initial federal lockdown that set the benchmark for how a lockdown should play out, masks were no more than a recommendation. Yet that was able to drive down 4500 patient zero cases to a handful a day within a 4 week period I'm going to make 3 points and I'll try to be concise 1/ You are already asking people to give up their jobs (some permanently), drop out of school, stop sports, isolate for 2 weeks when required, line up for hours testing, and even get vaccinated. Why not balance this out with a bit of reprieve where sensible? Give people options instead of throwing everything at them that can legally be thrown at them. They will simply respond like Sydney did 2/ 80% of transmission is household to household or work place or shared facilities that cannot be stopped by masks. If you accept masks can stop 30% of activity than thats 6% of total transmission. 15 daily cases in Sydney, 6 total cases for Melbourne's third lockdown, 3 for SA's first lockdown and a divide by zero error for ACT. I can understand why the USA or UK with different daily numbers and ratios might mandate their use but in the balance of point 1 why piss people off for the sake of a handful of infections. There is no need to double down and triple down on everything 3/ Masks dont have to be mandatory. Stats have shown 30% uptake when no outbreak and over 60% uptake when there is. Even without mandated usage there is still some sort of herd immunity in whatever impact they are going to have especially in conjunction with everything else in place In the balance of things masks arent doing anything. We didnt close down the shorelines just so we can live behind the same restrictions as the hardest hit countries. 4 or 5 restrictions is better than 10 or 20. People are already being asked to do too much, way more than they have ever had to give up in any other disaster. People have demonstrated beyond doubt a level of compliance and hard work that is unrivaled in any other country. The line has to be drawn somewhere and the average Joe's face mask usage is the least useful 1/ Why not throw everything at it so we can end the lockdowns faster? 2/ Masks are not mandated in the household, so that's not an issue 3/ Where are you getting these percentages from? 1/ Why not give people 2 vaccinations today so we can get through vaccinations faster? Same logic. There comes a point where a restriction added has no positive impact, and a point where it has a negative impact. Every outbreak takes time to control and this notion of getting through it faster by hitting people with everything is flawed2/ Thats the point. Face masks cant stop 80% of transmission, and are only effective for an estimated 30% of the rest, assuming those wearing it have met the same lab conditions as the links you posted last year 3/ I have read them from different sources and I'm trusting my memory. I'm not going all out with hard sources for what has become a round circles debate 1. I think people want vaccinations asap. Rollout has been terrible. We're 2 months behind and racing to get ahead of this thing. Why didn't we do this from the start? 2. if they are effective for 20% of 30% of the rest of the time, does that not show that there is some value with masks? 3. From your 60%, it seems that the majority are comfortable with masks then?
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bluebird2
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 648,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWhy do we always go back to the mask debate? It's pointless. This is a real world situation hitting every Australian every day. People managing their own mental health is critical for getting through an unprecedented situation. Being able to jump, kick, scream and yell in a cave is better than suppressing thoughts and feelings because it isnt popular opinion of the select few People like myself and AJF have been hit with 12 consecutive months of pointless (as you correctly pointed out) mask laws with no end in sight. If you want to be helpful then simply agree if you dont have a strong opinion on the other side of the argument because nothing can be more helpful or reassuring than somebody knowing they arent alone or being irrational in their suffering Face masks might seem like a tiny insignificant thing that cost a few cents and are a piece of cake to wear, but they do take their toll when regulated by force in month after month after month. Especially when piled on top of everything else Australia needs to scale back its response because it is absolutely ridiculous and they arent saving anything for an actual emergency Can you elaborate upon why masks are a mental health issue? I can understand how prolonged lockdowns may be an issue, but I can't see it being the same issue for masks. Inconvenient - yes, but I don't understand why it is more than that. Imagine being a high school kid with a 30 minute bus ride to school. Every day you have to don a mask on the bus ride, wear it in class for up to 4 hours, and wear it home. 5 days a week, however many weeks a year. Day in day out, no reprieve, and there is nothing you can do about it. Same for those who go to work Imagine being a single where you legally cant have anybody over and you have to wear a mask at all times outside. You are literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face If you live in a supported household with a family / partner / kids or whatever thats great. But there are 500,000 Victorians living in a single household that have no meaningful emotional engagement. No smiles, no comfort. And for those who dont live in a supported household (sexual assaults and domestic violence is up by the way) they are also trapped. And I havent even begun talking about those with mental health issues, or somebody borderline suicide who wants to go for a walk to unwind but first has to muzzle themselves Australia has never been about laws for the sake of law. If you think face masks are a small inconvenience then dont stop wearing one. Take the current Victorian mask rules and do them for the rest of the year and all of next year too Face masks in our situation are just pointless. Not only that but there is irrefutable evidence a % of the population breaks social distancing when wearing masks, or that people are more inclined to catch up behind closed doors than go out when there are mask laws in place They arent anywhere near as important and effective you think they are. Those experiments everybody is referring to wouldnt even pass a year 7 science class. For the balance of controlling an outbreak and giving people some kind of options face masks are an easy thing to simply make optional. Australia could easily get the same outcome with 4 or 5 restrictions than 30 or 40 In NSW, there is no outdoor mask requirement (except for the specified LGAs), but in Victoria, there a general mandate but it seems like there are a lot of exceptions: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/face-masks-when-wear-face-mask. To say that you are "literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face" is a bit of a stretch. I agree that it's frustrating because it seems to go on indefinitely, which is why we should have pushed hard for vaccinations. As for single households, there is the "singles bubble", so there is the Government is trying to manage that but all of those issues, including the ones relating to mental health are connected to the lockdowns, not masks. For lockdowns, I agree that these are major problems that the Government needs to provide support for. At the end of the day, you don't think masks work at all. I don't think anyone is able to convince you otherwise. Again, it's pointless to discuss. Sorry but thats not true. There are 3 or 4 general exceptions for face masks including under 12, mental health, eating / drinking, or strenuous exercise. Aside from that Victoria have added working alone. Thats it. Nobody else should be allowed to be outside of their immediate household without a mask Secondly the single bubble doesnt exist outside of a lockdown. When laws permit meeting each other outside then there is no need for a single bubble. Victoria currently prohibits any household visitors and lets people catch up outside (with masks). So aside from eating / drinking, single people by the letter of the law are not allowed to see faces (rules extended by 1 week today) I never said masks dont work at all. They are vital in health care situations. They can also cut 10% of overall transmission for countries with high levels of infections but no other mandates Australia already has quarantine, contact tracing and social distancing with 90% compliance. Face masks dont add anything to that especially since they arent regulated to any kind of standard in the general public. This is a highly contagious variant that is even forcing people to rethink the structure of restaurants. There is no chance the average Joe is wearing the correct 3 plied face mask, applied by the handles, no touching the cloth, single use only only to prevent fabric stretching. Even then you end up with something that is 30%-70% effective when they should be social distancing anyway which is closer to 100% Ok. So what is your position on face mask use in the community setting? Not at all (since we have other measures like quarantine and social distancing)? Yes. That is 100% my position. If you look at the initial federal lockdown that set the benchmark for how a lockdown should play out, masks were no more than a recommendation. Yet that was able to drive down 4500 patient zero cases to a handful a day within a 4 week period I'm going to make 3 points and I'll try to be concise 1/ You are already asking people to give up their jobs (some permanently), drop out of school, stop sports, isolate for 2 weeks when required, line up for hours testing, and even get vaccinated. Why not balance this out with a bit of reprieve where sensible? Give people options instead of throwing everything at them that can legally be thrown at them. They will simply respond like Sydney did 2/ 80% of transmission is household to household or work place or shared facilities that cannot be stopped by masks. If you accept masks can stop 30% of activity than thats 6% of total transmission. 15 daily cases in Sydney, 6 total cases for Melbourne's third lockdown, 3 for SA's first lockdown and a divide by zero error for ACT. I can understand why the USA or UK with different daily numbers and ratios might mandate their use but in the balance of point 1 why piss people off for the sake of a handful of infections. There is no need to double down and triple down on everything 3/ Masks dont have to be mandatory. Stats have shown 30% uptake when no outbreak and over 60% uptake when there is. Even without mandated usage there is still some sort of herd immunity in whatever impact they are going to have especially in conjunction with everything else in place In the balance of things masks arent doing anything. We didnt close down the shorelines just so we can live behind the same restrictions as the hardest hit countries. 4 or 5 restrictions is better than 10 or 20. People are already being asked to do too much, way more than they have ever had to give up in any other disaster. People have demonstrated beyond doubt a level of compliance and hard work that is unrivaled in any other country. The line has to be drawn somewhere and the average Joe's face mask usage is the least useful 1/ Why not throw everything at it so we can end the lockdowns faster? 2/ Masks are not mandated in the household, so that's not an issue 3/ Where are you getting these percentages from? 1/ Why not give people 2 vaccinations today so we can get through vaccinations faster? Same logic. There comes a point where a restriction added has no positive impact, and a point where it has a negative impact. Every outbreak takes time to control and this notion of getting through it faster by hitting people with everything is flawed2/ Thats the point. Face masks cant stop 80% of transmission, and are only effective for an estimated 30% of the rest, assuming those wearing it have met the same lab conditions as the links you posted last year 3/ I have read them from different sources and I'm trusting my memory. I'm not going all out with hard sources for what has become a round circles debate 1. I think people want vaccinations asap. Rollout has been terrible. We're 2 months behind and racing to get ahead of this thing. Why didn't we do this from the start? 2. if they are effective for 20% of 30% of the rest of the time, does that not show that there is some value with masks? 3. From your 60%, it seems that the majority are comfortable with masks then? 1/ I meant give person A two vaccinations on the same day. No, it doesnt work like that because they have to be spaced apart. No matter how fast your vaccination program is there will always be a time lag. Same with the virus. With a 2 week incubation period and 2 weeks to make sure there is no further transmission there is no sense in hitting people with 4 weeks of restrictions for every case. If 4 or 5 restrictions get the bulk of transmission then mop up the rest with contact tracing 2/ No. You are doing a benefit analysis instead of a cost benefit analysis. Why force every child over 12 to school behind a mask and every adult to work behind a mask between now and Christmas for the sake of preventing 1 or 2 infections 3/ Thats right. So there is no need to create inconsistent laws that even the premiers dont understand around something that cant be regulated to a standard when in the balance of things it doesnt make a difference Im not going to keep typing the same points. All I will say is this: Victorian students have been home schooled for ~25 weeks since the pandemic started and have had to school behind masks for ~8-10 weeks. Thats nearly a full 40 week school year of substandard education Victorian employees have only had ~2-3 weeks of a 100% workforce and ~8-9 months of working with masks on This notion of eliminating the virus and going back to normal is a fool's dream. If you cant find normal in the current situation then you wont find normal. That donkey pic is 100% on the money I'll let you reply, I'll read it, then I'm going to withdraw from this discussion for a while
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Burztur
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9.1K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWhy do we always go back to the mask debate? It's pointless. This is a real world situation hitting every Australian every day. People managing their own mental health is critical for getting through an unprecedented situation. Being able to jump, kick, scream and yell in a cave is better than suppressing thoughts and feelings because it isnt popular opinion of the select few People like myself and AJF have been hit with 12 consecutive months of pointless (as you correctly pointed out) mask laws with no end in sight. If you want to be helpful then simply agree if you dont have a strong opinion on the other side of the argument because nothing can be more helpful or reassuring than somebody knowing they arent alone or being irrational in their suffering Face masks might seem like a tiny insignificant thing that cost a few cents and are a piece of cake to wear, but they do take their toll when regulated by force in month after month after month. Especially when piled on top of everything else Australia needs to scale back its response because it is absolutely ridiculous and they arent saving anything for an actual emergency Can you elaborate upon why masks are a mental health issue? I can understand how prolonged lockdowns may be an issue, but I can't see it being the same issue for masks. Inconvenient - yes, but I don't understand why it is more than that. Imagine being a high school kid with a 30 minute bus ride to school. Every day you have to don a mask on the bus ride, wear it in class for up to 4 hours, and wear it home. 5 days a week, however many weeks a year. Day in day out, no reprieve, and there is nothing you can do about it. Same for those who go to work Imagine being a single where you legally cant have anybody over and you have to wear a mask at all times outside. You are literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face If you live in a supported household with a family / partner / kids or whatever thats great. But there are 500,000 Victorians living in a single household that have no meaningful emotional engagement. No smiles, no comfort. And for those who dont live in a supported household (sexual assaults and domestic violence is up by the way) they are also trapped. And I havent even begun talking about those with mental health issues, or somebody borderline suicide who wants to go for a walk to unwind but first has to muzzle themselves Australia has never been about laws for the sake of law. If you think face masks are a small inconvenience then dont stop wearing one. Take the current Victorian mask rules and do them for the rest of the year and all of next year too Face masks in our situation are just pointless. Not only that but there is irrefutable evidence a % of the population breaks social distancing when wearing masks, or that people are more inclined to catch up behind closed doors than go out when there are mask laws in place They arent anywhere near as important and effective you think they are. Those experiments everybody is referring to wouldnt even pass a year 7 science class. For the balance of controlling an outbreak and giving people some kind of options face masks are an easy thing to simply make optional. Australia could easily get the same outcome with 4 or 5 restrictions than 30 or 40 In NSW, there is no outdoor mask requirement (except for the specified LGAs), but in Victoria, there a general mandate but it seems like there are a lot of exceptions: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/face-masks-when-wear-face-mask. To say that you are "literally prohibited by law from seeing anybody's face" is a bit of a stretch. I agree that it's frustrating because it seems to go on indefinitely, which is why we should have pushed hard for vaccinations. As for single households, there is the "singles bubble", so there is the Government is trying to manage that but all of those issues, including the ones relating to mental health are connected to the lockdowns, not masks. For lockdowns, I agree that these are major problems that the Government needs to provide support for. At the end of the day, you don't think masks work at all. I don't think anyone is able to convince you otherwise. Again, it's pointless to discuss. Sorry but thats not true. There are 3 or 4 general exceptions for face masks including under 12, mental health, eating / drinking, or strenuous exercise. Aside from that Victoria have added working alone. Thats it. Nobody else should be allowed to be outside of their immediate household without a mask Secondly the single bubble doesnt exist outside of a lockdown. When laws permit meeting each other outside then there is no need for a single bubble. Victoria currently prohibits any household visitors and lets people catch up outside (with masks). So aside from eating / drinking, single people by the letter of the law are not allowed to see faces (rules extended by 1 week today) I never said masks dont work at all. They are vital in health care situations. They can also cut 10% of overall transmission for countries with high levels of infections but no other mandates Australia already has quarantine, contact tracing and social distancing with 90% compliance. Face masks dont add anything to that especially since they arent regulated to any kind of standard in the general public. This is a highly contagious variant that is even forcing people to rethink the structure of restaurants. There is no chance the average Joe is wearing the correct 3 plied face mask, applied by the handles, no touching the cloth, single use only only to prevent fabric stretching. Even then you end up with something that is 30%-70% effective when they should be social distancing anyway which is closer to 100% Ok. So what is your position on face mask use in the community setting? Not at all (since we have other measures like quarantine and social distancing)? Yes. That is 100% my position. If you look at the initial federal lockdown that set the benchmark for how a lockdown should play out, masks were no more than a recommendation. Yet that was able to drive down 4500 patient zero cases to a handful a day within a 4 week period I'm going to make 3 points and I'll try to be concise 1/ You are already asking people to give up their jobs (some permanently), drop out of school, stop sports, isolate for 2 weeks when required, line up for hours testing, and even get vaccinated. Why not balance this out with a bit of reprieve where sensible? Give people options instead of throwing everything at them that can legally be thrown at them. They will simply respond like Sydney did 2/ 80% of transmission is household to household or work place or shared facilities that cannot be stopped by masks. If you accept masks can stop 30% of activity than thats 6% of total transmission. 15 daily cases in Sydney, 6 total cases for Melbourne's third lockdown, 3 for SA's first lockdown and a divide by zero error for ACT. I can understand why the USA or UK with different daily numbers and ratios might mandate their use but in the balance of point 1 why piss people off for the sake of a handful of infections. There is no need to double down and triple down on everything 3/ Masks dont have to be mandatory. Stats have shown 30% uptake when no outbreak and over 60% uptake when there is. Even without mandated usage there is still some sort of herd immunity in whatever impact they are going to have especially in conjunction with everything else in place In the balance of things masks arent doing anything. We didnt close down the shorelines just so we can live behind the same restrictions as the hardest hit countries. 4 or 5 restrictions is better than 10 or 20. People are already being asked to do too much, way more than they have ever had to give up in any other disaster. People have demonstrated beyond doubt a level of compliance and hard work that is unrivaled in any other country. The line has to be drawn somewhere and the average Joe's face mask usage is the least useful 1/ Why not throw everything at it so we can end the lockdowns faster? 2/ Masks are not mandated in the household, so that's not an issue 3/ Where are you getting these percentages from? 1/ Why not give people 2 vaccinations today so we can get through vaccinations faster? Same logic. There comes a point where a restriction added has no positive impact, and a point where it has a negative impact. Every outbreak takes time to control and this notion of getting through it faster by hitting people with everything is flawed2/ Thats the point. Face masks cant stop 80% of transmission, and are only effective for an estimated 30% of the rest, assuming those wearing it have met the same lab conditions as the links you posted last year 3/ I have read them from different sources and I'm trusting my memory. I'm not going all out with hard sources for what has become a round circles debate 1. I think people want vaccinations asap. Rollout has been terrible. We're 2 months behind and racing to get ahead of this thing. Why didn't we do this from the start? 2. if they are effective for 20% of 30% of the rest of the time, does that not show that there is some value with masks? 3. From your 60%, it seems that the majority are comfortable with masks then? 1/ I meant give person A two vaccinations on the same day. No, it doesnt work like that because they have to be spaced apart. No matter how fast your vaccination program is there will always be a time lag. Same with the virus. With a 2 week incubation period and 2 weeks to make sure there is no further transmission there is no sense in hitting people with 4 weeks of restrictions for every case. If 4 or 5 restrictions get the bulk of transmission then mop up the rest with contact tracing 2/ No. You are doing a benefit analysis instead of a cost benefit analysis. Why force every child over 12 to school behind a mask and every adult to work behind a mask between now and Christmas for the sake of preventing 1 or 2 infections 3/ Thats right. So there is no need to create inconsistent laws that even the premiers dont understand around something that cant be regulated to a standard when in the balance of things it doesnt make a difference Im not going to keep typing the same points. All I will say is this: Victorian students have been home schooled for ~25 weeks since the pandemic started and have had to school behind masks for ~8-10 weeks. Thats nearly a full 40 week school year of substandard education Victorian employees have only had ~2-3 weeks of a 100% workforce and ~8-9 months of working with masks on This notion of eliminating the virus and going back to normal is a fool's dream. If you cant find normal in the current situation then you wont find normal. That donkey pic is 100% on the money I'll let you reply, I'll read it, then I'm going to withdraw from this discussion for a while Thanks. I won't say anything else apart from this then. I agree that lockdowns have been terrible and your issues/gripes are mainly about lockdowns not masks. I want these lockdowns to stop/be relaxed too. What I'm suggesting is, let's go as hard as we can, include masks to try and get this done sooner. I didn't realise students have been home schooled for around 25 weeks too. That's a major loss.
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paladisious
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Group: Moderators
Posts: 39K,
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29 new cases in Victoria, none in iso. We're not getting out of this on Thursday.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
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+x+x+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve. You don't have to keep labelling me a 'lefty'. I'm not sure why you think that's an insult or even necessary. Sorry, I must have mistaken that crack you & others made about Briebart and the CNN video. Because Breitbart is literally a 'far right' news organisation that makes Fox look like the North Korean News channel. It's beyond a joke how anyone can quote Breitbart and a tiny little bit of an interview as a gotcha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_NewsMaybe you want to scroll down to the topic heading - Accuracy and ideology.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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On masks. The rules are clearly ridiculous and full of holes (literally AJF?). Last night I went to dinner with about 30 people. So all sitting down, talking, yelling, laughing, drinking and eating no mask required. Get up and go to the bar - mask on or you can't get served. I mean fuck off, how idiotic. It's either safe to go out or it's not.
Member since 2008.
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tsf
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I’ve been a long term subscriber to the economist, a traditional centre right publication. Although as they’ve been obviously analytically critical of Trump’s shambolic presidency, his obvious lies to make money about election fraud and inaction on climate, I’m probably classified as a communist now according to all this ‘leftist’ garbage that gets thrown around now. Utterly inane.
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Glory Recruit
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+x29 new cases in Victoria, none in iso. We're not getting out of this on Thursday. Jesus fuck
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Glory Recruit
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319 new cases in nsw
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mcjules
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+xOn masks. The rules are clearly ridiculous and full of holes (literally AJF?). Last night I went to dinner with about 30 people. So all sitting down, talking, yelling, laughing, drinking and eating no mask required. Get up and go to the bar - mask on or you can't get served. I mean fuck off, how idiotic. It's either safe to go out or it's not. That's not true at all, no one knows how safe anywhere is. It's all a probabilities game. You can make this criticism with every health measure they've put in place, the only "perfect" measure is to keep every single person isolated for 14 days, test every single person at the end and the ones that test positive those people until they test negative. This is simply infeasible. It's also infeasible to wear a mask when eating, so health departments have traded off the increased risk of infecting the people you're sitting with while trying to reduce the risk of people spreading it to strangers who you may be standing near when you go to the counter/bar. Yes everyone will be contacted and told to isolate if a covid case is in the restaurant while you're there regardless of whether you're sitting with them or not but the less infected the better. The same thing for the masks themselves, ideally everyone would be wearing n95 masks and face shields and other PPE that the doctors and nurses treating patients have. that's not feasible either so a simple rule where there's a distribution of a small number of people wearing highly effective masks, a majority wearing reasonably effective masks (surgical masks and the like) and a small number wearing things that are basically ineffective is better than nothing at all.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xSo what do you want to happen? I take it you're not getting the vaccine, you're clearly anti-mask and presumably lockdown and restrictions. What do you actually want? Great graphic isnt it, sums up perfectly what is happening across the country As for me, sorry to disappoint you but I have had the vaccine (double shot) and not because I wanted it, but more because the carrot of freedom was waved in front of me if enough people do the "right" thing, yet here I am locked down again. In terms of what I want, I was happy with our original strategy of flattening the curve, and as a reminder, here is an article from the ABC last year which you lefties will hopefully accept which explained it: What flattening the curve really means, and why going hard against coronavirus won't work in AustraliaBy Amy GreenbankPosted Australia faces some hard truths when deciding how to combat the coronavirus pandemic that has the country locked down, according to experts. Key points:- Two medical experts have explained Australia's coronavirus strategy
- They say flattening the coronavirus infection curve here could take between six to 12 months
- In that time, one argues at least 60 per cent of the population would need to be infected
Australia's deputy chief medical officer Paul Kelly says combating the virus can be divided into two main schools of thought.These are known as "flatten the curve", which Australia is using, and "eradication", a harsher lockdown which New Zealand is trying. Professor Blakely says the strategy favoured by the Federal Government is not designed to stop transmission.Rather, it aims to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals don't get overwhelmed."You don't go in too hard because you actually want the infection rate to pick up a bit and then hold," he said. Shutting down non-essential services and encouraging people to stay home and isolate are strategies designed to slow the spread of COVID-19. "What they're not saying is [that] 'flatten the curve' likely means [that] by the time this is over, 60 per cent of us will have been infected, to develop herd immunity," he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/coronavirus-options-to-end-lockdown-explained/12090270 At the start of this thing, everyone said elimination was impossible and we just want to flatten the curve to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and yet here we are with empty hospitals and sacrificing everything trying to eliminate covid. If its shame on me after being fooled twice, WTF do you say after the 6th failure? The hubris dictator Dan is displaying by being the only jurisdiction to "beat" delta with lock downs is not only hugely damaging to society, but also a fools errand. Time to accept that Covid is not going away and start learning to live with it by flattening the curve. You don't have to keep labelling me a 'lefty'. I'm not sure why you think that's an insult or even necessary. Sorry, I must have mistaken that crack you & others made about Briebart and the CNN video. Because Breitbart is literally a 'far right' news organisation that makes Fox look like the North Korean News channel. It's beyond a joke how anyone can quote Breitbart and a tiny little bit of an interview as a gotcha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_NewsMaybe you want to scroll down to the topic heading - Accuracy and ideology.
Yep, that's the point I was making, just because its Breitbart it is automatically inaccurate but no questions about the ABC or The Guardian.
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
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+x29 new cases in Victoria, none in iso. We're not getting out of this on Thursday. Mate, we were never getting out on Thursday
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