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mahony
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? I'm not entirely sure of the intricacies but believe they had a 100 year plan for football mapped out and when they commenced it was planned out for when and how lower leagues would slot in. If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the par Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. I guess we will see what the next two go for ( I predict Canberra and Gold Coast btw) and the two after that. Silver Lake has "invested" in the "Isuzu trucks but not passenger vehicles men's and women's and youth's A leagues pty ltd" with the intention of making a profit.... Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. Even with a salary cap, there is a sizable gap between the big clubs (MC, Sydney, WSW, MV) and the bottom teams, leaving aside blips like MV's catastrophic collapse the last couple of years. When the league goes to 16 teams this gap will only get bigger. CFG doesn't need to spend 30-40m to ensure dominance, just a couple of million in players spent wisely will make them a class above teams like the Mariners, Jets (let alone Wollongong, Hobart, etc.) who are just trying to keep their heads above water. This is why I think the big clubs will eventually want to be freed from the shackles of the cap so they can at least try to compete in Asia without being head down by the need to keep the smaller clubs competitive in the A-League, and this will be one of the forces allowing pro-rel to be adopted. It's cynical but that's the reality of football today. That is an excellent point. I had not thought about an internal gap being an incentive to abolish cap in quite the same way. If true, would definitely incentive P/R as well.
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mahony
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues. Are you maybe forgetting New Zealand is separate country or is your "cognitively strong" uber- brain taking a bit of a nap? Please tell us the difference between a proposed ESL with a core of 12 clubs, from different countries, hand selected from the beginning, who will play in the competition every season regardless of results or sporting merit and will be joined by a handful,of clubs from elsewhere who can join for a season or to and will be relegated depending on performance..... and the proposed link of a few real clubs tacked onto the existing Aleague franchises then to be split into two divisions as suggested????? It's the same self serving, money grubbing shit. Only difference is that it has been happening here for 17 years, you all know it, but are too ashamed to call a spade a spade. "P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk"? Good, f#cking grief!!!!!
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LFC.
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? I'm not entirely sure of the intricacies but believe they had a 100 year plan for football mapped out and when they commenced it was planned out for when and how lower leagues would slot in. If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the par Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. I guess we will see what the next two go for ( I predict Canberra and Gold Coast btw) and the two after that. Silver Lake has "invested" in the "Isuzu trucks but not passenger vehicles men's and women's and youth's A leagues pty ltd" with the intention of making a profit.... Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. Even with a salary cap, there is a sizable gap between the big clubs (MC, Sydney, WSW, MV) and the bottom teams, leaving aside blips like MV's catastrophic collapse the last couple of years. When the league goes to 16 teams this gap will only get bigger. CFG doesn't need to spend 30-40m to ensure dominance, just a couple of million in players spent wisely will make them a class above teams like the Mariners, Jets (let alone Wollongong, Hobart, etc.) who are just trying to keep their heads above water. This is why I think the big clubs will eventually want to be freed from the shackles of the cap so they can at least try to compete in Asia without being head down by the need to keep the smaller clubs competitive in the A-League, and this will be one of the forces allowing pro-rel to be adopted. It's cynical but that's the reality of football today. how can you have X amount of the Clubs in a closed comp then to decide we want more and feck the rest due to the cap or be it anything else not in line what they signed up for in the first place...... Sorry that would go against all the fine print that I assume is the same/similar for each APL franchise. IF in the end they want to be freed of the shackles they have no choice terminate their APL contract and pay an out clause or whatever to then try and join a proper comp like RB did in Germany. There is no other way. As much as local Germans hate/dislike that Club having bought a fith teir Club at least it did it the right way by promotion through the lower ranks getting to Bundas. P/R won't be agreed by the APL owners in the big picture that I can see, they are not normal "Clubs" per say but a business/company trading under X Name in a closed shop. IF I handed over my hard earned no way would I agree in having my contract diluted unless upon a total contractual re structure of competitons was agreed and I was compensated a hell of alot for the years of loss's incurred etcetc.... This structure period is a barrier introducing P/R to the top flight. In the big picture all I wish for is the NSD to get up and running for the sake of the game and the levels below forget above it.
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df1982
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues. Are you maybe forgetting New Zealand is separate country or is your "cognitively strong" uber- brain taking a bit of a nap? Please tell us the difference between a proposed ESL with a core of 12 clubs, from different countries, hand selected from the beginning, who will play in the competition every season regardless of results or sporting merit and will be joined by a handful,of clubs from elsewhere who can join for a season or to and will be relegated depending on performance..... and the proposed link of a few real clubs tacked onto the existing Aleague franchises then to be split into two divisions as suggested????? It's the same self serving, money grubbing shit. Only difference is that it has been happening here for 17 years, you all know it, but are too ashamed to call a spade a spade. "P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk"? Good, f#cking grief!!!!! The Football League was what you described for its first 100 years. First it was a single league, then with expansion it introduced divisions with pro-rel. But there was no automatic relegation from the bottom tier (Fourth Division) until 1987. Clubs had to be voted out, which happened occasionally but it was a very nepotistic practice. So the 92 clubs were effectively a closed shop for a century. I suppose that wasn't real football either?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues. Are you maybe forgetting New Zealand is separate country or is your "cognitively strong" uber- brain taking a bit of a nap? Please tell us the difference between a proposed ESL with a core of 12 clubs, from different countries, hand selected from the beginning, who will play in the competition every season regardless of results or sporting merit and will be joined by a handful,of clubs from elsewhere who can join for a season or to and will be relegated depending on performance..... and the proposed link of a few real clubs tacked onto the existing Aleague franchises then to be split into two divisions as suggested????? It's the same self serving, money grubbing shit. Only difference is that it has been happening here for 17 years, you all know it, but are too ashamed to call a spade a spade. "P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk"? Good, f#cking grief!!!!! The Football League was what you described for its first 100 years. First it was a single league, then with expansion it introduced divisions with pro-rel. But there was no automatic relegation from the bottom tier (Fourth Division) until 1987. Clubs had to be voted out, which happened occasionally but it was a very nepotistic practice. So the 92 clubs were effectively a closed shop for a century. I suppose that wasn't real football either? 92 clubs vs 12 ... mate, do the math. Which would you consider a more fleshed out, vibrant competition? ....and anyway you are playing "whataboutisms" again.... You can just as easily have said that the FL introduced pro /rel as far back as 1987 and here in Australia we still can't manage it......... I don't understand how we can still be arguing this? I get why the APL apartheid want to keep their investments lucrative but why don't the fans want pro/rel? Are they so worried that the big bad ethnic clubs of the past will rise again? That ship has sailed long ago, we are mere shadows of our former selves.... If anything promotion relegation is a chance for the "new generation" of ambitious clubs to show what they can do..... Why do Aleqgue fans care so much about how much money the foreign owners of their franchises get back every year? I really can't see it.... As a Victory fan (I am assuming you are, sorry if I'm wrong) why do you care less how much money the investors make back every year? Don't you want to play against a wider variety of clubs with more professionalism in the tiers below driving ambition, skill level, player development, coaching competitiveness etc etc up the ranks? If we get to 92 clubs with pro/rel between them ( yes I won't be happy still I suppose) maybe then we can win a World Cup in a few generations time rather than creaming our jocks for having just qualified for them.
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df1982
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues. Are you maybe forgetting New Zealand is separate country or is your "cognitively strong" uber- brain taking a bit of a nap? Please tell us the difference between a proposed ESL with a core of 12 clubs, from different countries, hand selected from the beginning, who will play in the competition every season regardless of results or sporting merit and will be joined by a handful,of clubs from elsewhere who can join for a season or to and will be relegated depending on performance..... and the proposed link of a few real clubs tacked onto the existing Aleague franchises then to be split into two divisions as suggested????? It's the same self serving, money grubbing shit. Only difference is that it has been happening here for 17 years, you all know it, but are too ashamed to call a spade a spade. "P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk"? Good, f#cking grief!!!!! The Football League was what you described for its first 100 years. First it was a single league, then with expansion it introduced divisions with pro-rel. But there was no automatic relegation from the bottom tier (Fourth Division) until 1987. Clubs had to be voted out, which happened occasionally but it was a very nepotistic practice. So the 92 clubs were effectively a closed shop for a century. I suppose that wasn't real football either? 92 clubs vs 12 ... mate, do the math. Which would you consider a more fleshed out, vibrant competition? ....and anyway you are playing "whataboutisms" again.... You can just as easily have said that the FL introduced pro /rel as far back as 1987 and here in Australia we still can't manage it......... I don't understand how we can still be arguing this? I get why the APL apartheid want to keep their investments lucrative but why don't the fans want pro/rel? Are they so worried that the big bad ethnic clubs of the past will rise again? That ship has sailed long ago, we are mere shadows of our former selves.... If anything promotion relegation is a chance for the "new generation" of ambitious clubs to show what they can do..... Why do Aleqgue fans care so much about how much money the foreign owners of their franchises get back every year? I really can't see it.... As a Victory fan (I am assuming you are, sorry if I'm wrong) why do you care less how much money the investors make back every year? Don't you want to play against a wider variety of clubs with more professionalism in the tiers below driving ambition, skill level, player development, coaching competitiveness etc etc up the ranks? If we get to 92 clubs with pro/rel between them ( yes I won't be happy still I suppose) maybe then we can win a World Cup in a few generations time rather than creaming our jocks for having just qualified for them. Listen, I want a second division to be implemented. I want it to have pro-rel with the A-League, and with the NPL. I even want the NPL to have a proper pro-rel format with lower divisions (which happens in some states but not all), so that we can actually have a completely unified football pyramid from local football up to the A-League. This should be FA's explicit medium-term goal, and it frustrates me that they aren't more gung-ho about this. But you can want all these things without snidely dismissing the A-League as inauthentic because it presently doesn't have them. I appreciate the A-League because without it we wouldn't have professional football in this country (the NSL was always predominantly semi-pro, and by the early 2000s it was clearly in its death throes), and that's important in and of itself for the vitality of the game. P.S. I detest Victory, possibly more than you do albeit for different reasons.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the park. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. @16 just split the top 8 into it's own league as the A+ league with the bottom 8 remaining as the A League and have p&r between the two following season. New clubs would still have to buy licence for A League, keeps the FA out of clubland and not touch the unwashed npl. The NSD will be a part of the APL before P/R occurs for a range of reasons, but there are a couple of paths to this outcome and you have identified one. Not my preference, but the APl won't be promoting and relegating into a division is doesnt have very strong controll over and it will be fully professional also. The PFA and APL know this and JJ suspects it. Exactly..... Sort of like the European Super League proposal everyone here pretended to hate last year....... Except entirely different because it is a domestic, national and self contained league.... It's just about the APL wanting to have P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk - entirely predictable. The FA also have skinning that outcome as an owner of the leagues. Are you maybe forgetting New Zealand is separate country or is your "cognitively strong" uber- brain taking a bit of a nap? Please tell us the difference between a proposed ESL with a core of 12 clubs, from different countries, hand selected from the beginning, who will play in the competition every season regardless of results or sporting merit and will be joined by a handful,of clubs from elsewhere who can join for a season or to and will be relegated depending on performance..... and the proposed link of a few real clubs tacked onto the existing Aleague franchises then to be split into two divisions as suggested????? It's the same self serving, money grubbing shit. Only difference is that it has been happening here for 17 years, you all know it, but are too ashamed to call a spade a spade. "P/R on commercial and legal terms that best manage risk"? Good, f#cking grief!!!!! The Football League was what you described for its first 100 years. First it was a single league, then with expansion it introduced divisions with pro-rel. But there was no automatic relegation from the bottom tier (Fourth Division) until 1987. Clubs had to be voted out, which happened occasionally but it was a very nepotistic practice. So the 92 clubs were effectively a closed shop for a century. I suppose that wasn't real football either? 92 clubs vs 12 ... mate, do the math. Which would you consider a more fleshed out, vibrant competition? ....and anyway you are playing "whataboutisms" again.... You can just as easily have said that the FL introduced pro /rel as far back as 1987 and here in Australia we still can't manage it......... I don't understand how we can still be arguing this? I get why the APL apartheid want to keep their investments lucrative but why don't the fans want pro/rel? Are they so worried that the big bad ethnic clubs of the past will rise again? That ship has sailed long ago, we are mere shadows of our former selves.... If anything promotion relegation is a chance for the "new generation" of ambitious clubs to show what they can do..... Why do Aleqgue fans care so much about how much money the foreign owners of their franchises get back every year? I really can't see it.... As a Victory fan (I am assuming you are, sorry if I'm wrong) why do you care less how much money the investors make back every year? Don't you want to play against a wider variety of clubs with more professionalism in the tiers below driving ambition, skill level, player development, coaching competitiveness etc etc up the ranks? If we get to 92 clubs with pro/rel between them ( yes I won't be happy still I suppose) maybe then we can win a World Cup in a few generations time rather than creaming our jocks for having just qualified for them. Listen, I want a second division to be implemented. I want it to have pro-rel with the A-League, and with the NPL. I even want the NPL to have a proper pro-rel format with lower divisions (which happens in some states but not all), so that we can actually have a completely unified football pyramid from local football up to the A-League. This should be FA's explicit medium-term goal, and it frustrates me that they aren't more gung-ho about this. But you can want all these things without snidely dismissing the A-League as inauthentic because it presently doesn't have them. I appreciate the A-League because without it we wouldn't have professional football in this country (the NSL was always predominantly semi-pro, and by the early 2000s it was clearly in its death throes), and that's important in and of itself for the vitality of the game. P.S. I detest Victory, possibly more than you do albeit for different reasons. But it is this very in-authenticity that is the ONLY hurdle for Australian Soccer to have all the things I guess we both want for our country. Lowey wasn't the messiah mate, he saw an opportunity to make money from a sport he had a partial interest in by copying the MLS franchise system and used this to gain prestige and at the same time punish the clubs who made a fool of him in the 80s. The Aleague by its very nature is designed to be exclusive - if it wasn't then there would be no value in obtaining a license to join it. Say what you want about the previous soccer administrators but despite their many, many, many flaws they wanted to grow the sport as much as possible and often made very silly mistakes in their attempts to do so. Conferences - rapid expansion - relegation based on geographical considerations - de-ethnicizing club's names and badges - affiliating with AFL clubs etc etc. Yes Aleague has brought a certain amount of "mainstream" support and investment into the sport but at what cost? I don't detest Victory any more so than any other franchise personally. Despite 17 years of existence they are all still rather the same to me as an outsider (I admit I really have an unnatural loathing of WU but thats another story I admit). I detest Melbourne Knights and Heidelberg (yet at the same time begrudgingly respect them) but the Aleague clubs are non existent to me and many others and always will be. Sorry for implying you are a Victory fan BTW, I wasnt sure which team you support.
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Squidley
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The league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent.
Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under.
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bettega
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+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. I guess the beauty of an open P&R system is that there is always someone wanting to step up to replace whoever is dropping out.
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Arthur
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 Promotion and Relegation, very interesting, only 3 wins the difference from last to 11th. How do they keep it interesting? (I say sarcastically to myself)
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Arthur
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 SPL is boring, I ask myself?
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Arthur
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 By bye Levante, see you back soon
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Muz
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+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. Go away. Out of the hundreds of thousands of players are you saying there's not 100 or so other players that could be brought up to the required standard required by playing and training full time? Give yourself an uppercut lad. Big Sas pulled out of the Vic NPL and then goes on to play for Australia is just one example of a bloke good enough if given the chance. There'd be literally hundreds of others.
Member since 2008.
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Keeper66
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+x+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. Go away. Out of the hundreds of thousands of players are you saying there's not 100 or so other players that could be brought up to the required standard required by playing and training full time? Give yourself an uppercut lad. Big Sas pulled out of the Vic NPL and then goes on to play for Australia is just one example of a bloke good enough if given the chance. There'd be literally hundreds of others. Didn’t Sasa also win the Asian Player of the Year (can’t remember the year)?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xwhat makes it worse in the big picture for me is the closed shop argumentative devotees here........ They should be standing up for the big picture as well. Yet they moan groan of our NT performances to date - arnie this arnie that but in the big picture its the cattle full stop period. Oh hang on Atkinson Tilios are coming, charge of the light brigade - yes they are good promising players and how many have we seen over the last decade. Any decent product has to make it OS not here but its all become cussy here now to stay. We've seen and heard all this before. Mate, no disrespect intended at all but the closed shop wouldn't exist if some people didn't support it and actually want it to be that way.... People that buy into the whole MLS lite thing you guys have got going here seem to really want to keep it that way. Not 100% sure why but I suspect it's because there is always another "New dawn" on the way...... Anyway, looks like AAFC plan of uniting all,of soccer died on the vine like everything else in this country. Expansion coming soon in the Aleague and like Midfielder keeps on wishing for, we'll get to that magical number of 32 franchises like all US sports and then they start shuffling licenses from one foreign consortium to another, why relegate when you can take a license away and resell it to the next schmuk... Every single dollar you all give these foreigners is another nail in the coffin for Soccer in Australia .... ohhh BTW can't wait till the 'Muricans start marketing the sport as Soccer again , the "ourists" will loose their minds...... Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine.... >>Instead of moaning and acting like an absence of automatic pro-rel is anathema to football (when the team you support happily played in the same kind of closed shop league for 27 years), why not be happy about the progress that has been made recently, given that: This "whataboutism" is a constant excuse in my opinion though mate... Just because the NSL was a dogshit league doesn't mean repeating the mistakes of the past is acceptable now. It just reeks of hypocrisy when you claim to boycott the A-League due to the absence of pro-rel, but obviously didn't do so when South Melbourne was the beneficiary of the same system. >>a) there is now unequivocal commitment by the governing body to starting a national second division - Hmmm are you sure, it sounds like platitudes and 1/2 promises to me. A lot of "we hope" statements rather than "we will do" to me.Not seven days ago James Johnson said: "We said it will happen and it will happen". That sounds more like a "we will do" than a "we hope" statement to me. >>b) a timeline for a 2023 start seems to be emerging - as was 2020, and then 2021 and then 2022 ... lets see huh?You're right, we should have started the nationwide second division in March 2020. What could have possibly gone wrong? >> c) once an NSD is in place for a few years the momentum for pro-rel will likely become irresistible - irresistible to who exactly? The APL clubs like WU who have openly stated at their time of bidding that they would not be viable in a second division? Your dreaming bud.They said they were not interested in bidding for a spot in an NSD, which is their prerogative. It would be a different matter if they get relegated and have the opportunity to bounce back up again. >>Sure the format being discussed might not be to your liking, but in that case you should focus on lobbying for a better format, which is what I imagine the AAFC (including SMFC's representatives) is doing right now. - and being completely ignored which is not surprising.It sounds to me like the FFA is taking the NSD proposal seriously as a strategic imperative, is undertaking modelling to find the best format, and has had in-person meetings with AAFC representatives. That doesn't seem like being ignored. I think the logic has changed since the unbundling from the A-League. Until then the FFA had a vested interest in the top level comp, now it can focus on the tiers below. Given the states run the NPL comps, an NSD would actually give it a league to have oversight of, which it doesn't have at the moment (or the NSD could also go autonomous, but this would be hard at semi-pro level). >>Nobody on this forum is against the principle of pro-rel, and everyone has the best interests of football in Australia at heart, there are just different views on how viable it is and when and how it could be implemented. Are you sure about this last statement? Every-time I hear excuses about how it is not financially viable I look to countries with 4 or 5 divisions in their soccer pyramid that have a GDP of 50 cents and yet still manage to do it.... Money is not the problem (or not the ONLY problem I should say) its the willingness to be inclusive that is... I applaud your wish towards pro/rel, and many others on here, but lets face it it is a pipedream at best. South Melbourne has been effectively been told to "get fucked" for the last 17 years by FFA and we are (I am sure you can concede) one of the better run and funded NPL clubs..... If we are not good enough for the sensitive "mainstream" AFL/NRL audience then what is? Its new licenses from now on mate and if you are all happy with that thats fine....
Those countries with 4 or 5 divisions don't have 25m people spread over 7m km2. Remember Australia is not really a contiguously populated country, but rather 5-6 isolated settlements and their catchment areas, with essentially nothing in between them. This is reflected in the history of its sporting leagues, which were suburban comps until only a few decades ago. There is no other sport in the country that has a nationwide second tier, so football will yet again be a pioneer when it introduces one. The roadblock for pro-rel at the moment is there is nothing to be relegated to, save for a state-based NPL which would basically be an abyss for any demoted A-League club. How would the Jets function if they have to start playing in NNSW NPL1 against Lambton Jaffas and the like? What about Wellington, where would they go? That's why you need a functioning, viable NSD before this discussion can even take place. I know pro-rel for A-League clubs it's a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas, but that's why I think the push will most likely end up coming from the big clubs (especially the big two in Sydney and Melbourne). Particularly once you get expansion to clubs 13-16, they will probably start tiring of being saddled with poor-performing smaller clubs having a permanent spot at the table, and keeping them down with modest salary caps and other equalisation measures. Better to rotate the teams at the bottom of the table and water down or even abolish the salary cap to ensure the bigger teams will never be threatened with going down. It's a bit realpolitik-ish but that's how I see it panning out, and the bigger and better run NPL/NSD clubs can be the beneficiaries by having a bite of the A-League cherry every now and again. Sorry can I just confirm that you believe that a push for promotion/relegation will come from the actual franchises themselves? I think that's one of the most remarkable things I've ever read....... No, I think the push will come from below. But the ones that will be amenable to it will be the likes of Sydney, City, WSW, Victory. It will be their pretext for having a more free-market league system in place, including transfers, abolishing the cap and getting rid of clubs that aren't performing. It will be the likes of CCM and the Jets that will fight it as they will be the most likely candidates for relegation. But on the other hand they should recognise that a spell in a lower division and a rebuild can actually be better for a club's long-term health than prolonged stagnation at the bottom of the top flight. Yes agree, but not only from below, but from everywhere. When APL has a 16 team comp, no more room for more "Licences". When a National Second tier with 16 teams with P/R from NPL A Transfer System in place. There will be no other choice "for the good of the game" to have P/R between ALM and NSD. That's pretty much my point. The A-League isn't going to announce pro-rel tomorrow, but once they've maxed out expansion (to 16) and the NSD has bedded down for a few seasons, it will basically become a fait accompli. The actual decision to implement it is in the hands of FA, but of course they would be unlikely to do so against the wishes of the APL in order to avoid (another) civil war in the game. APL may well be able to decide licensing requirements, but this couldn't be different to those required for existing clubs otherwise lawsuits would ensue (and probably be won), so they can't demand 50k stadiums and $100m in the bank. I am seriously interested why/how you both believe that the APL structure would benefit in any way from accepting a system were their business interests would be in any possible jeopardy of being "devalued" by being relegated to a league outside the top flight. In no imaginable future will the Aleague(s) ever be a league where - salary cap or no cap - a club can buy its way out of relegation trouble at the next transfer window, we just dont have the wherewithal to fund that. Why would a club like Victory who could have a poor season despite being a "big club" ever agree to a system where they would be relegated???? I sincerely dont see why a consortium of investors would EVER care about the "good of the game". The key is in your statement about licensing requirements df, By the time the Aleague grows into a 16 team league I would forecast the value of a participation license into the Aleague would (to appease the equity partners ROI) have grown to 50-60 million based on the similar trajectory of MLS licensing. If that is the case there is NO POSSIBILITY of any member's run, not for profit existing community club ever being promoted keeping the economic apartheid going for perpetuity. If the only barrier to promotion is performance then, yes we have a future, but reading the writing on the wall this is not happening EVER. Then why did Japan go from an autonomous J-League to a pro-rel system? I'm not entirely sure of the intricacies but believe they had a 100 year plan for football mapped out and when they commenced it was planned out for when and how lower leagues would slot in. If and when the A-League goes to 16 teams, there will likely be a good chunk of teams who will basically never have the chance of winning the comp, even with things like a salary cap in place. So what will they have to play for? Maybe to squeeze into the bottom of an eight-team play-off system? Pro-rel would immediately create high-stakes for the bottom half of the table. If they don't want to risk their investment then all they have to do is put a good team on the par Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. And I wish I shared your optimism about club licenses being worth $50-60m in the foreseeable future. I think it's already clear that WU and MFC overpaid significantly. I guess we will see what the next two go for ( I predict Canberra and Gold Coast btw) and the two after that. Silver Lake has "invested" in the "Isuzu trucks but not passenger vehicles men's and women's and youth's A leagues pty ltd" with the intention of making a profit.... Im sorry I just can't agree with this. There are plenty of leagues in the world where because of the ability of some teams to invest far superior amounts of money into their squads than others, the top 2 or 4 or 6 clubs win every year. But we are talking about the differences in money which Australian clubs with their piddly budgets will never achieve.... Sure if CFG spends 30 to 40 million dollars a year in Australia they would romp it home always but they dont and they won't because they don't have to. Shit half the APL clubs don't even want to win the league coz it's too expensive to play in ACL. .. Even with a salary cap, there is a sizable gap between the big clubs (MC, Sydney, WSW, MV) and the bottom teams, leaving aside blips like MV's catastrophic collapse the last couple of years. When the league goes to 16 teams this gap will only get bigger. CFG doesn't need to spend 30-40m to ensure dominance, just a couple of million in players spent wisely will make them a class above teams like the Mariners, Jets (let alone Wollongong, Hobart, etc.) who are just trying to keep their heads above water. This is why I think the big clubs will eventually want to be freed from the shackles of the cap so they can at least try to compete in Asia without being head down by the need to keep the smaller clubs competitive in the A-League, and this will be one of the forces allowing pro-rel to be adopted. It's cynical but that's the reality of football today. Sorry to flog a dead horse but if the below is indicative of the APL thinking I dont see this as any desire to "free the shakles" https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/ex-socceroo-wins-insurance-payout-after-court-tussle-with-brisbane-roar-20211130-p59dj4.htmlWonder why old Bald headed Burbler and Janakaan Brunoskevic havnet written about this yet, Brisbane is an ethnic team aren't they? lol
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. Go away. Out of the hundreds of thousands of players are you saying there's not 100 or so other players that could be brought up to the required standard required by playing and training full time? Give yourself an uppercut lad. Big Sas pulled out of the Vic NPL and then goes on to play for Australia is just one example of a bloke good enough if given the chance. There'd be literally hundreds of others. Gotta agree with Muzzie here. Plenty of understandable/debatable arguments from those opposing pro/rel in this country but lack of players/talent has to be the stupidest of the lot (Sorry Squidley it really is). Literally 100s of players JUST in Victorian NPL right now who, if given the chance to play football for a career rather than be distracted by work or study, would be pushing for Soceroos/Olyroos spots in less than a season......
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LFC.
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oh no doubt about the copious amount of talent through NPL all levels.....those like some here who actually attend games for years see it easily. Add in the countless ones who slip through the crappy cracks due to costs, a broken system, kids fed up giving it away and neglect Thanks to the whole mess. Its all and good having a Pro league but its on its own, its isloted, you can't touch this, this is not working for us how can invested supporters not see this in the big picture. WE are NOT the USA - lets fact it football isn't their DNA when Baseball/BB/Gridiron/Ice Hockey etc is huge there but having population and MONEY soccer there can get its slice of the pie as it has after 20yrs investing and to date developed a handfull of players who went onto EU leagues of 380M. All the excuse's is just excuse's today, the past is the past what occured to old socka but we got a generation through the mess. You want your ALM, well keep having mediocore Roo teams and not until we have some players breaking through playing in some top leagues. If you can't see P/R is the only system to produce competiton through a pyramid your a Gold Class movie viewer. I lol through the P+ thread comments how good the coverage was on 10 (yes it was agree but thats the front cover), oh this is great, ffs I wonder how you'd jizz having a P/R comp and watch MV being relegated the last 2 seasons plus another or 2 promoted but importantly the NSD below is nurturing promising young players ready for Snr football and the knock off effect top to bottom.
Love Football
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Footyball
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+x+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. Go away. Out of the hundreds of thousands of players are you saying there's not 100 or so other players that could be brought up to the required standard required by playing and training full time? Give yourself an uppercut lad. Big Sas pulled out of the Vic NPL and then goes on to play for Australia is just one example of a bloke good enough if given the chance. There'd be literally hundreds of others. Canberra, South Melbourne, Wollongong, Marconi, Rockdale Illinden, Tasmania and Aukland are all getting orgasmic to come into the league. Take your Gallop and Townsend kind of Negative Shit and shift it back to Rugby where it belongs.
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Muz
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+x+x+xThe league simply cannot go to 16 teams. There is no where near enough talent. Struggling to keep 12 teams afloat at the moment. 16 will be a revolving door of clubs going under. Go away. Out of the hundreds of thousands of players are you saying there's not 100 or so other players that could be brought up to the required standard required by playing and training full time? Give yourself an uppercut lad. Big Sas pulled out of the Vic NPL and then goes on to play for Australia is just one example of a bloke good enough if given the chance. There'd be literally hundreds of others. Canberra, South Melbourne, Wollongong, Marconi, Rockdale Illinden, Tasmania and Aukland are all getting orgasmic to come into the league. Take your Gallop and Townsend kind of Negative Shit and shift it back to Rugby where it belongs. Are you talking to me or Squidley?
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Arthur
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In the end it just makes sense.
Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories.
We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST.
That's over 2,500 players.
Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level.
The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense.
Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem.
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mahony
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+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out?
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Arthur
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+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Let's remember a couple of issues. Full time professionalism at the start is not an issue, AL started at a lower achievable startup entry point. Working towards Full time Pro's is a goal. And in the short term too. Growth and Criteria is the key here. 32 NPL Clubs say they are ready, NOW. They have an achievable financial model to get started. And we have yet to get to the stage of asking for external EOI for entry to a NSD. And will a Club or two fail? Its quite possible, as has happened in the AL. So what I assume you and many others are asking is that this doesn't happen mid season This can be assured by having Bank gurantees that allow for a CLubs completion in season.
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Muz
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+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure.
Member since 2008.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure. Hahahaha I forgot the "4 major football codes".... hahhah sorry Muz.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure. Hahahaha I forgot the "4 major football codes".... hahhah sorry Muz. Tart that up, bullet point it and then get a mod to sticky it in a thread titled 'Read this first' before commenting on why pro/rel won't work.'
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure. Hahahaha I forgot the "4 major football codes".... hahhah sorry Muz. Tart that up, bullet point it and then get a mod to sticky it in a thread titled 'Read this first' before commenting on why pro/rel won't work.' All bullshit aside I really dont get why ANYONE wouldn't want this.... OK, I get the APL wanting a return on their investment but the average Joe Blow who want the sport to grow in popularity and for our national teams and national comps to improve must see that it is the only way forward......?
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure. Hahahaha I forgot the "4 major football codes".... hahhah sorry Muz. Tart that up, bullet point it and then get a mod to sticky it in a thread titled 'Read this first' before commenting on why pro/rel won't work.' All bullshit aside I really dont get why ANYONE wouldn't want this.... OK, I get the APL wanting a return on their investment but the average Joe Blow who want the sport to grow in popularity and for our national teams and national comps to improve must see that it is the only way forward......? Are there that many here completely against it or just some who don't think it can work blah blah etc? I don't think there's many people left on the forum that are dead against p&r as a concept. Just stating for the record I stir you up about SM and their hypocrisy sometimes but I'm 100% all for P&R and as you say, it's hard to imagine why anyone WOULD be against it.
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BA81
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.9K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the end it just makes sense. Our current National Second Tier is compromised of 6 states and 2 territories. We have 129 Clubs, at last count, in our NST. That's over 2,500 players. Having 12-16 teams in a NSD, will see the best of the best playing at this level. The standard will obviously be better, it's just common sense. Every day its delayed, is a day lost to improving our football ecosystem. I agree, the 12-16 best suads below the A-leagues,if professional and full time, will deliver all the quality we need and then some. The issues are 'how' to fund it, not 'if' to do it. Once it's in place, the next economic hurdle is P/R - again a debate on 'how' not 'if'. Once the 'how' is funded, the 'if' will follow. Is there a checklist the Philistines arm you guys with before sending you out into the interwebby? Something like: ""Reasons why we can never have Pro/Rel in Australia...... (Plan #1000034)"" 1) Claim there are not enough players. 2) Australia is a very large country, pretend 4 hour flights from one end to a other are so far out of reach for all but billionaires. 3)AFL and NRL are yet to implement it so must wait to see what they do 4)Australia is unique. 5)Despite countless assurances that clubs will be self funded, scratch your head and ask "where is the money?" 6) Talk about geographic representation alot and pretend that 5 shops in NSW yet only 1 in Perth and none in TAS, NT or ACT is by design not greed. 7) mentions the MLS and their globally recognised and revered youth set-up and national squad. 8) the NSL didn't have it ........ dont forget, the NSL didn't have it........ 9) Australia is unique again, just for good measure 10) 90% of the clubs pushing for pro/rel where founded by non-anglo immigrants more than half a century ago and, despite Australia now being wonderfully multicultural, mention how uncomfortable it would make millenials feel seeing and hearing other nationalities out in public. 11) A salary cap isn't a restraint on competition but rather a way of making things more sporting?????? (sorry I don't honestly know how to spin this one for you 12) tell them that no one would watch the games or attend the stadiums of these dinosaur old clubs .... try and keep a straight face when they ask about Aleague crowds. 13) ask about the money again, making reference to "ethnic clubs" ..... ignore the hypocrisy of APL owners being foreigners 14) the NSL didn't have it. Have I left anything out? That's pretty comprehensive but will add. 15) No other country has 4 major football codes. That always gets a run. Probably worth mentioning Australia is unique another time for good measure. Hahahaha I forgot the "4 major football codes".... hahhah sorry Muz. Tart that up, bullet point it and then get a mod to sticky it in a thread titled 'Read this first' before commenting on why pro/rel won't work.' All bullshit aside I really dont get why ANYONE wouldn't want this.... OK, I get the APL wanting a return on their investment but the average Joe Blow who want the sport to grow in popularity and for our national teams and national comps to improve must see that it is the only way forward......? Are there that many here completely against it or just some who don't think it can work blah blah etc? I don't think there's many people left on the forum that are dead against p&r as a concept. Just stating for the record I stir you up about SM and their hypocrisy sometimes but I'm 100% all for P&R and as you say, it's hard to imagine why anyone WOULD be against it. TBH, the advocates of Australianising(or most accurately, boganising) the game for the supposed benefit of the 'mainstream' are deadset against it on the grounds it's the way back in for the 'effnik' clubs whose 'fault' it was for all the game's troubles here prior to the Crawford Report...
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