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numklpkgulftumch
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. Guess that can only be tested by full open pyramid
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Arthur
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 5.1K,
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+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics.
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tomw
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.3K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant. If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation.
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Remote Control
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. How much we disregard sporting merit. It is interesting how it seems that so many people on here who say they are for P&R and "sporting merit " , talk down on the reigning a-league champions WU because of their attendances and say they don' t deserve to be in the competition .
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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 861,
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+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat?
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. How much we disregard sporting merit. It is interesting how it seems that so many people on here who say they are for P&R and "sporting merit " , talk down on the reigning a-league champions WU because of their attendances and say they don' t deserve to be in the competition . Yep. They can't define what merit actually is.
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tomw
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.3K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that. Ok so like Western United then?
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Arthur
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture.
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localstar
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Melbourne Hakoah has been around since about 1932, and both Greek and Italian clubs were founded in Adelaide just prior to WWII, so the foundations for ethnic club acceptance has been around for a long time. If post war British migrants didn't want to follow a European ethnic club, there were plenty of "Anglo" clubs to follow - eg Brighton in Melbourne, Birkalla, Cumberland etc in Adelaide. However many British migrants didn't flock to these clubs so they declined or folded up, The European ethnic clubs were too strong and well supported and attracted most of the talent. British and Australians weren't keen on being involved with lesser clubs, so the resentment against "ethnic clubs".
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Enzo Bearzot
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+xMelbourne Hakoah has been around since about 1932, and both Greek and Italian clubs were founded in Adelaide just prior to WWII, so the foundations for ethnic club acceptance has been around for a long time. If post war British migrants didn't want to follow a European ethnic club, there were plenty of "Anglo" clubs to follow - eg Brighton in Melbourne, Birkalla, Cumberland etc in Adelaide. However many British migrants didn't flock to these clubs so they declined or folded up, The European ethnic clubs were too strong and well supported and attracted most of the talent. British and Australians weren't keen on being involved with lesser clubs, so the resentment against "ethnic clubs". The ethnic clubs ie the Greeks, Croation and to lesser extent Italians were clubs by ethnics for ethnics. Sure they had the odd token player or coach who didn't match the club's ethnicity, but the core of the team and the identity of powerful people who ran and made the decisions were exclusively Greeks, or Cro's. They even gave the club the same name as the country they came ftrom!. Why would anyone who wasn't of that nationality follow that team, attend to watch that team, and chant "Hellas" or "Hrvatska" in the terraces?
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne?
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sydneyfc1987
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 10K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out.
(VAR) IS NAVY BLUE
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tomw
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.3K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that. Ok so like Western United then? Yeah like Western United. Or Melbourne Victory. Or South Melbourne. Or the Mia Mia Minnows. If they can put the best team together, they should be in. I didn't think it was complicated. Is there something here confusing you?
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that. Ok so like Western United then? Yeah like Western United. Or Melbourne Victory. Or South Melbourne. Or the Mia Mia Minnows. If they can put the best team together, they should be in. I didn't think it was complicated. Is there something here confusing you? Yes actually, the Western United thread where nearly all of it is about why they shouldn't be in the A-League and South Melbourne should. So those people should just STFU, correct?
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them?
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tomw
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.3K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? I (and I suspect sydneyfc1987) couldn't give a shit if they are in the A-League or not. I (we?) couldn't give a shit if South Melbourne are in the A-League or not. I (we?) couldn't give a shit if Mia Mia Minnows are in the A-League or not. What I (we?) *do* give a shit about is all these clubs having the *opportunity* to get into the league, specifically by having a better team than a team that is in the A-League.
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tomw
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.3K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that. Ok so like Western United then? Yeah like Western United. Or Melbourne Victory. Or South Melbourne. Or the Mia Mia Minnows. If they can put the best team together, they should be in. I didn't think it was complicated. Is there something here confusing you? Yes actually, the Western United thread where nearly all of it is about why they shouldn't be in the A-League and South Melbourne should. So those people should just STFU, correct? If my post above was implemented, I think you'd find that almost all of them would just STFU.
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Arthur
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 5.1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? As far as Western United is concerned, and the current model that selected them, the one thing I would have done differently would have been to grant them the Licence, but entry would be based on Stadium completion. I think that would have put them on a greater path of long term success on and off the pitch.
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LFC.
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why should anyone with interest STFU.......let people have their say rightly or wrongly enzo, you sure are not to be the judge thats for sure. Granted WU are the current Champs in the closed comp, good on them even more for a Club with no home ground, unheard of but what does that say about the comp, any generic entity can win just buy buying themselves in with hardly any outside supporters, thats crap, thats not a open football comp but a front for generic metric supporters your welcome to it......says alot about the long standing license's competing being done actually. Mr Red Bull again rightly or wrongly bought the playing rights of a 5th tier Club and went through the normal process of promotion to the top flight. Obviously general supporters didn't like that occurring but they earned the right in the normal known world football promotion process. Who cares whatever old Club it is in regards to here, talking going Pro no Club can operate as they once did, none of them are that ignorant, they have to prove their financials/their grounds to standards expected for today. The NSD and the Clubs involved can finally step up the plate for the better of the game period, ALM needs competition might I add.
Love Football
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? As far as Western United is concerned, and the current model that selected them, the one thing I would have done differently would have been to grant them the Licence, but entry would be based on Stadium completion. I think that would have put them on a greater path of long term success on and off the pitch. Why would they agree to that when no-one else has had to? +x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. All of what you say is true but, there are fans out there that don't support ALeague teams, but they support they're former NSL teams. They're family members supported them and there is a historical significance associated with these teams with history. Why would the establishment exclude the better run clubs like South Melbourne, Apia and Sydney/Melbourne UTD from a chance to 'participate?' The politicians that run FA/Apl need to start respecting Australian football/soccer alot more by becoming inclusive and have your newer teams as well, they are not at fault with any exclusions. Because there is a low ceiling to the fan base they can attract. So put in P&R. If they can survive, then brilliant . If not, they get replaced by someone better. Also brilliant! All the haters are so convinced all the old clubs are going to fail anyway, so it's really a no-lose situation. Define "better"? Better results? Better attendances and viewerships? Better sponsorships? Or someone just as bad who happened to be the best of the worst. Repeat? Better results of course. And if a club can get those with lower costs and lower revenue, who am I to complain? And if another club thinks they can get better results another way, then they'll invest to do that. Ok so like Western United then? Yeah like Western United. Or Melbourne Victory. Or South Melbourne. Or the Mia Mia Minnows. If they can put the best team together, they should be in. I didn't think it was complicated. Is there something here confusing you? Yes actually, the Western United thread where nearly all of it is about why they shouldn't be in the A-League and South Melbourne should. So those people should just STFU, correct? If my post above was implemented, I think you'd find that almost all of them would just STFU. They just need to meet the same criteria.
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sydneyfc1987
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
(VAR) IS NAVY BLUE
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LFC.
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. just like a suit.
Love Football
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole.
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sydneyfc1987
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 10K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it.
(VAR) IS NAVY BLUE
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Derider
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Western United are a joke. It’s embarrassing that a team without a home ground and no fans is the national champion. I would kick them the fuck out unless they produce the stadium they promised very soon.
And even if they do somehow build a stadium, I’d kick them out anyway for that horrifically, shamefully generic name. Must have been named by the same genius who came up with Greater Western Sydney Giants in the AFL.
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LFC.
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GOLD last 2 posts lol Watch the suit I mean enzo afl counter and the other
Love Football
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+xWestern United are a joke. It’s embarrassing that a team without a home ground and no fans is the national champion. I would kick them the fuck out unless they produce the stadium they promised very soon. And even if they do somehow build a stadium, I’d kick them out anyway for that horrifically, shamefully generic name. Must have been named by the same genius who came up with Greater Western Sydney Giants in the AFL. The name is fine- unite the West (Victoria). Create a geographic identity. Their home ground is AAMI, isn't it?
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