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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+xNo need for sin bins, I think it just destroys the fabric of the game. With dissent, the referees just need to apply the laws of the game, which essentially say you must receive a yellow card for dissent. Once the players realise there is zero tolerance and more yellow cards, and especially red cards (for second yellows) occur, then the situation will resolve itself. Regarding so-called professional fouls though, I have long been of the opinion that they should be punished with an immediate red card. They are a blight on the game. Again, once players get used to the consequence of a red card for a professional foul, you will see the incidence of professional fouls plummet. This is similar to what happened a few years ago with the introduction of mandatory red cards for DOGSO. Hahaha. Probably fair. I'd imagine you'd think this should have been a red? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0hJcPAv7I Yep, Serious Foul Play if you judge he was challenging Violent Conduct if you judge he wasn't challenging I'm assuming the ref saw that as a holding (shirt pull) foul and because he was so far from goal (and there was cover in the middle) he's deemed that a SPA and not a DOGSO. In which case that's a YC and can't be a RC. I'm not agreeing and I'm not disagreeing. That's my thought process of what he was thinking. Had he grabbed the shirt at the bottom would you have sent him off? Probably not. Does where you grab the shirt matter? That is interesting. In my world, any non-football challenge that stops a player (shirt pull, deliberate trip with no intention or hope of playing the ball, rugby tackle, etc) should be a red card. Anywhere and everywhere on the pitch. It might take a few games (or more than a few for those players out there who have had this behaviour ingrained into them for years, e.g., Giorgio Chiellini), but eventually they will all adapt to it and the game will be so much the better for it. Can't say I disagree. Look at the shitshow corners have become in the EPL. It's practically a mass wrestling match. Flat out getting to ridiculous levels.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+xFrom a refs perspective... I watch the game and I am largely focussed on the ball player and my team's interaction with the ball. I see 'every' professional foul clearly with my fan vision - all the deliberate trips, pulls and impedances - and I expect the ref to be seeing the same. What I do not take into account is how much more the ref has to focus on at the same time that I am watching the ball runner. Is it likely that I see things with my 100% infallible supporter vision that really do happen, but are not as obvious and therefore not so clear in terms of punishment for the ref in the middle of it? I suspect that is where a lot of my opinion on cards not awarded may differ from the game ref. You're right but then there's the matter of how much do you want the game to resemble netball or basketball when the whistle is going off constantly. And then of course if you go down that route you end up with players falling over at the slightest touch which is blown up and it just makes the game a terrible spectacle. (Looking at you Mr Broich.) So that's not ideal. And pricks yell out 'we're not here to see you ref ! ' You have to consider the flow of the game and the 'battle' aspect of it as well. I actually like blokes shrugging off shirt pulls and riding tackles, shoulder to shoulder barges and toughing it out on the pitch. I'm not talking about thuggish behaviour or hacks but you have to expect some manner of contact. I don't know, it's tricky. There's definitely a balance. I'm known as a ref that 'let's the game flow' and I've had people tell me they like it that way. I'm sure others think I let players get away with too much but if you've read anything I've written here about reffing I think I keep them on a pretty tight leash. (I hope.) At the end of the day professional football is an entertainment product. I'm on a ref forum in England and blokes come in from elsewhere moaning about why are the EPL laws different from elsewhere and they're always met with 'it's entertainment'. All that shit like the mobbing of the ref, the coaches going off on the sidelines etc etc. It makes for great drama and great drama makes great TV.
Member since 2008.
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LFC.
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xNo need for sin bins, I think it just destroys the fabric of the game. With dissent, the referees just need to apply the laws of the game, which essentially say you must receive a yellow card for dissent. Once the players realise there is zero tolerance and more yellow cards, and especially red cards (for second yellows) occur, then the situation will resolve itself. Regarding so-called professional fouls though, I have long been of the opinion that they should be punished with an immediate red card. They are a blight on the game. Again, once players get used to the consequence of a red card for a professional foul, you will see the incidence of professional fouls plummet. This is similar to what happened a few years ago with the introduction of mandatory red cards for DOGSO. Hahaha. Probably fair. I'd imagine you'd think this should have been a red? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0hJcPAv7I Yep, Serious Foul Play if you judge he was challenging Violent Conduct if you judge he wasn't challenging I'm assuming the ref saw that as a holding (shirt pull) foul and because he was so far from goal (and there was cover in the middle) he's deemed that a SPA and not a DOGSO. In which case that's a YC and can't be a RC. I'm not agreeing and I'm not disagreeing. That's my thought process of what he was thinking. Had he grabbed the shirt at the bottom would you have sent him off? Probably not. Does where you grab the shirt matter? That is interesting. In my world, any non-football challenge that stops a player (shirt pull, deliberate trip with no intention or hope of playing the ball, rugby tackle, etc) should be a red card. Anywhere and everywhere on the pitch. It might take a few games (or more than a few for those players out there who have had this behaviour ingrained into them for years, e.g., Giorgio Chiellini), but eventually they will all adapt to it and the game will be so much the better for it. Can't say I disagree. Look at the shitshow corners have become in the EPL. It's practically a mass wrestling match. Flat out getting to ridiculous levels. yer as much as I luv Gigi that blatant shirt pull is a Red and tbh the ref set the precident right there which is so wrong ! Therefore in the many case's of the modern game today the onus is on the Ref but..... As mentioned corners are a complete and utter joke, put aside shirt pulling that is bad enough the wrapping around of both arms of a attacker OMG pens should be handed out every single time ! Are these top 5 refs told by their chiefs to let these actions go ? turn a blind eye ? for the sake of entertainment and the money involved ? Then CL laws are different to League laws might I add from memory. Ramos should have copped bans for a year now and then another repetitive obvious offender.
Love Football
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Keeper66
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo need for sin bins, I think it just destroys the fabric of the game. With dissent, the referees just need to apply the laws of the game, which essentially say you must receive a yellow card for dissent. Once the players realise there is zero tolerance and more yellow cards, and especially red cards (for second yellows) occur, then the situation will resolve itself. Regarding so-called professional fouls though, I have long been of the opinion that they should be punished with an immediate red card. They are a blight on the game. Again, once players get used to the consequence of a red card for a professional foul, you will see the incidence of professional fouls plummet. This is similar to what happened a few years ago with the introduction of mandatory red cards for DOGSO. Hahaha. Probably fair. I'd imagine you'd think this should have been a red? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0hJcPAv7I Yep, Serious Foul Play if you judge he was challenging Violent Conduct if you judge he wasn't challenging I'm assuming the ref saw that as a holding (shirt pull) foul and because he was so far from goal (and there was cover in the middle) he's deemed that a SPA and not a DOGSO. In which case that's a YC and can't be a RC. I'm not agreeing and I'm not disagreeing. That's my thought process of what he was thinking. Had he grabbed the shirt at the bottom would you have sent him off? Probably not. Does where you grab the shirt matter? That is interesting. In my world, any non-football challenge that stops a player (shirt pull, deliberate trip with no intention or hope of playing the ball, rugby tackle, etc) should be a red card. Anywhere and everywhere on the pitch. It might take a few games (or more than a few for those players out there who have had this behaviour ingrained into them for years, e.g., Giorgio Chiellini), but eventually they will all adapt to it and the game will be so much the better for it. Can't say I disagree. Look at the shitshow corners have become in the EPL. It's practically a mass wrestling match. Flat out getting to ridiculous levels. yer as much as I luv Gigi that blatant shirt pull is a Red and tbh the ref set the precident right there which is so wrong ! Therefore in the many case's of the modern game today the onus is on the Ref but..... As mentioned corners are a complete and utter joke, put aside shirt pulling that is bad enough the wrapping around of both arms of a attacker OMG pens should be handed out every single time ! Are these top 5 refs told by their chiefs to let these actions go ? turn a blind eye ? for the sake of entertainment and the money involved ? Then CL laws are different to League laws might I add from memory. Ramos should have copped bans for a year now and then another repetitive obvious offender. Blatant obstruction is another thing that has crept into the game and is now everywhere. The laws of the game say you can only use your body to prevent an opponent getting to the ball if the ball is within playing distance of you, otherwise an indirect free kick is awarded. But these days you have players, nowhere near the ball and with no intention of trying to play the ball, deliberately moving to block players runs at corners, in general play, it even happens many times at kick off when a pass gets played deep to a defender or keeper. But how many times do you see it penalised? I haven't seen it for years. The game almost resembles the shepherding actions in Australian Rules at times.
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NicCarBel
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3K,
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+x+x+x+xNo need for sin bins, I think it just destroys the fabric of the game. With dissent, the referees just need to apply the laws of the game, which essentially say you must receive a yellow card for dissent. Once the players realise there is zero tolerance and more yellow cards, and especially red cards (for second yellows) occur, then the situation will resolve itself. Regarding so-called professional fouls though, I have long been of the opinion that they should be punished with an immediate red card. They are a blight on the game. Again, once players get used to the consequence of a red card for a professional foul, you will see the incidence of professional fouls plummet. This is similar to what happened a few years ago with the introduction of mandatory red cards for DOGSO. I agree with your first paragraph entirely. For the second, I think a yellow is perfect for the professional foul with two observations: - Yellow cards have to be administered for all professional fouls and yellow card worthy incidents. No need to give a warning for a professional foul. The player does it knowing they will get a card and their next 'mistake' will cost their team a player. As teams build their team foul count that earlier yellow could also see a send off for repeated team infringements in what might otherwise be a fairly innocuous foul. Won't take long for players and coaches to realise that a professional foul is not a 'go to' activity and has potentially critical repercussions. - A professional foul that is dangerous or can be called physical assault is a red. The choking, back breaker in Muz's post is a fine example of a professional foul gone too far - as are the rugby tackles/throws sometimes administered can cause injury as much for their unexpectedness as the action itself. My issue with the top leagues is that get away with it week in, week out. Particularly mobbing the ref and dissent. And of course that trickles down to grassroots where gumbies like me are. I would say most professional fouls are already carded though. Pretty much any SPA (Stopping a Promising Attack) is carded already. I see dissent and mobbing the ref as more of an issue. Watching so many aleagues games (and obviously concentrating on the Roar) I don't think they are being carded. All the transitions that cop trips and shirt pulls back in the attacking team's defensive third get free kicks without a card. You almost have to grapple them and drop them to the turf to get a card deep in your own third yet it is the epitome of professional fouls and unsportsmanlike behaviour. I tend to ignore SPA (Stop a Promising Attack numkl...) as a critical determining factor and just go with outright cheating being unsportsmanlike. When any professional foul is not carded because it is deep in the attacking team's half and not a promising attack YET just builds frustration in the victim's team and we all know where that leads. Refs do not like to issue cards early in games unless they are quite physical/brutal incidents and players know it - and yet to issue them from the start would quickly stop the behaviour. Who cares if several games are less entertaining while players and coaches figure out it is a failing tactic. The issue with that (the bolded part) is, the LOTG specifically define 'unsportsmanlike' conduct (USB - or unsporting behaviour) as only a cautionable offence.
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NicCarBel
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3K,
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+x+xFrom a refs perspective... I watch the game and I am largely focussed on the ball player and my team's interaction with the ball. I see 'every' professional foul clearly with my fan vision - all the deliberate trips, pulls and impedances - and I expect the ref to be seeing the same. What I do not take into account is how much more the ref has to focus on at the same time that I am watching the ball runner. Is it likely that I see things with my 100% infallible supporter vision that really do happen, but are not as obvious and therefore not so clear in terms of punishment for the ref in the middle of it? I suspect that is where a lot of my opinion on cards not awarded may differ from the game ref. You're right but then there's the matter of how much do you want the game to resemble netball or basketball when the whistle is going off constantly. And then of course if you go down that route you end up with players falling over at the slightest touch which is blown up and it just makes the game a terrible spectacle. (Looking at you Mr Broich.) So that's not ideal. And pricks yell out 'we're not here to see you ref ! ' You have to consider the flow of the game and the 'battle' aspect of it as well. I actually like blokes shrugging off shirt pulls and riding tackles, shoulder to shoulder barges and toughing it out on the pitch. I'm not talking about thuggish behaviour or hacks but you have to expect some manner of contact. I don't know, it's tricky. There's definitely a balance. I'm known as a ref that 'let's the game flow' and I've had people tell me they like it that way. I'm sure others think I let players get away with too much but if you've read anything I've written here about reffing I think I keep them on a pretty tight leash. (I hope.) At the end of the day professional football is an entertainment product. I'm on a ref forum in England and blokes come in from elsewhere moaning about why are the EPL laws different from elsewhere and they're always met with 'it's entertainment'. All that shit like the mobbing of the ref, the coaches going off on the sidelines etc etc. It makes for great drama and great drama makes great TV. The interesting thing about that place is, I don't remember seeing any (or many) criticisms of Gillett on that forum
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Roar in me Blood
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.8K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+xNo need for sin bins, I think it just destroys the fabric of the game. With dissent, the referees just need to apply the laws of the game, which essentially say you must receive a yellow card for dissent. Once the players realise there is zero tolerance and more yellow cards, and especially red cards (for second yellows) occur, then the situation will resolve itself. Regarding so-called professional fouls though, I have long been of the opinion that they should be punished with an immediate red card. They are a blight on the game. Again, once players get used to the consequence of a red card for a professional foul, you will see the incidence of professional fouls plummet. This is similar to what happened a few years ago with the introduction of mandatory red cards for DOGSO. I agree with your first paragraph entirely. For the second, I think a yellow is perfect for the professional foul with two observations: - Yellow cards have to be administered for all professional fouls and yellow card worthy incidents. No need to give a warning for a professional foul. The player does it knowing they will get a card and their next 'mistake' will cost their team a player. As teams build their team foul count that earlier yellow could also see a send off for repeated team infringements in what might otherwise be a fairly innocuous foul. Won't take long for players and coaches to realise that a professional foul is not a 'go to' activity and has potentially critical repercussions. - A professional foul that is dangerous or can be called physical assault is a red. The choking, back breaker in Muz's post is a fine example of a professional foul gone too far - as are the rugby tackles/throws sometimes administered can cause injury as much for their unexpectedness as the action itself. My issue with the top leagues is that get away with it week in, week out. Particularly mobbing the ref and dissent. And of course that trickles down to grassroots where gumbies like me are. I would say most professional fouls are already carded though. Pretty much any SPA (Stopping a Promising Attack) is carded already. I see dissent and mobbing the ref as more of an issue. Watching so many aleagues games (and obviously concentrating on the Roar) I don't think they are being carded. All the transitions that cop trips and shirt pulls back in the attacking team's defensive third get free kicks without a card. You almost have to grapple them and drop them to the turf to get a card deep in your own third yet it is the epitome of professional fouls and unsportsmanlike behaviour. I tend to ignore SPA (Stop a Promising Attack numkl...) as a critical determining factor and just go with outright cheating being unsportsmanlike. When any professional foul is not carded because it is deep in the attacking team's half and not a promising attack YET just builds frustration in the victim's team and we all know where that leads. Refs do not like to issue cards early in games unless they are quite physical/brutal incidents and players know it - and yet to issue them from the start would quickly stop the behaviour. Who cares if several games are less entertaining while players and coaches figure out it is a failing tactic. The issue with that (the bolded part) is, the LOTG specifically define 'unsportsmanlike' conduct (USB - or unsporting behaviour) as only a cautionable offence. I might not have explained myself well enough - when I was talking about carding I meant a yellow card for unsportsmanlike behaviour. In my head I don't think in terms of SPA or whatever - I just think 'that is no accident it is cheating - yellow card them'. Nothing in that stops a red card being awarded on other grounds depending on the incident. All professional fouls at the back at the start of transition that currently go as just a free kick I think should be a yellow card. The game flow is not a factor in that because the game was disrupted by the foul already - it warrants more than letting the defence get set and just a free kick. Every side that plays good attacking football finds their initial attacks fouled deliberately and when it is just awarded as a free kick the side that did it has gotten away with it. So they will do it again every game. Pulling them all up early with a yellow would stop that behaviour bloody quick.
When I wear their colours, I am the club.
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AnthonyC
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The only ones to blame are the referees themselves. They've always had the power, yet allowed the abuse and bullying by players to become ridiculous. If some of the things that happen during a game happen in a public area the police would be involved.
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AnthonyC
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 611,
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They get what they deserve. Cowards.
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NicCarBel
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3K,
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+xThey get what they deserve. Cowards. I love seeing these cowards abusing referees get their just punishments.
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