That's fair. But that does show you that 'having an education' doesn't automatically make you any of the things I listed above. As you say a skilled plumber is educated. It seems the problem is people with a university degree. 

Are all university educated people hopeless or only some? I know a lot of fucked up tradesman and unskilled people. Are they automatically OK because they don't have an education.

It's not an either/or thing. You can be uneducated and lack common sense. You can have a degree in astrophysics and strip a motor. Common sense, real world experience and a degree are not mutually exclusive.

As an aside you do know that your criticisms of students these days are exactly the same criticisms that you and I were subjected to when you graduated.

When I graduated in 94 all I heard the whole time, before and after uni, was how hopeless graduates were and how they weren't living in the real world and how university was an absolute joke that did nothing to prepare students for this (magical) 'real' world.

I work in construction so this is the sort of thing you heard directly to your face.

I observe that people can often think in the way that their training taught them to think.

No matter how people like to assume they're independent thinkers, the greater pull is the fear of being on the outer, in terms of not thinking like the rest of the group.

I've come to see that, across all different professions, jobs, training, cultures etc. - the bell curve of how people adopt ideas holds true (the Theory of Diffusion of Ideas).



No matter how you try to present facts, information, evidence, data -- most people are not driven by facts. They are driven by how much they need to be part of a group. Hence, in the above chart, no matter how you try to persuade a person who is a "late majority" person - there is zero chance that person will adopt the idea, until he sees lots of his friends doing the same.

I think this is why, very very few people would have been willing to be part of the 5% who did not take the vax. No matter how much scientific evidence, data you give to people, their prime driver is what everyone else is doing, and what the Majority authorities are telling them.

Most people will hate you for suggesting that they are not an independent thinker -- but the Theory of Diffusion indicates that 84% of people (early majority, late majority, laggards) will not accept an idea until they see a majority start to do it.

The "Theory of Diffusion of Ideas" is a more academic way of saying that 84% of people behave like sheep.

So if we get beyond insults and name-calling, calling people sheep etc -- there has to be a measurable way of testing if a person is an independent thinker or a herd-like mentality of the 84%. For me, that test is how people respond to contrary behaviour.

For example, if a person immediately shuts down, and scoffs, and jeers and throws insults -- without bothering to look at the data -- and throws ad hominem personal attacks -- that's a sign of a late majority or laggard (as per the above graph).

If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public?

Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required

Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are.  Step 3 address the causes.  Step 4.  audit the outcomes of Step 3.

Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them.  For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse.  Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so one.  This well known and well established. 

Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this?  Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.?  (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and  called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back link

We're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions.  And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to.

I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done?

One of following 2 are possible.

(a) It's not that simple or....

(b) The people  involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.)

Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are?

Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?

Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?

As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away.

  

Well they probably shouldn't have. The SA premier has legislated it. Other states will probably follow.

As explained before Albo took it to a referendum because he was asked to. Because it meant something to the people asking. Because they wanted recognition in our founding document.

That is certainly one interpretation of the Theory of Diffusion of Ideas johnsmith(lowercase) however, just like the majority of social science "theories", it is extremely hard to quantify. Culture, environment, wealth, health etc, etc etc are all co-contributors to "learning" and the often un-predictable patterns of human interaction. Interesting that you chose to base your understanding of human behaviour on a theory that feeds into your own sense of superiority and intellect... Have you read any Nietzche perhaps?

wow what a read these last few pages being I haven't checked in for sometime.
Some good points from both sides might I add.

Do you find it curious how quiet it is now over it, people just move on till the next chapter springs up about this sooner or later and again nothing changes but finger pointing.

.

Spot on observation. Most people don't really care enough to make meaningful change-they only want to be seen as if they do.  Its the same as the wealthy and privileged climate change warriors- many of them happily globe trot on airplanes-some to simply watch grown men kicking balls around, or support the fashion industry by mindlessly buying new wardrobes of clothes without a moments thought they are contributing to boiling the planet, but given half a chance will chastise the climate change "denialists"...

100% correct... Look at old mate "Making America Great Again"... sure but not for the scraggly, toothless, meth addicted masses that wave his posters and storm the Whitehouse...

Sure but who DOES care about those masses-the Democrats who find them detestable?  Trump gets the Big Fuck You voters to vote for him, because those who *should* care, don't.  So if their lives are going to be shit either way, might as well take everyone down with them.

Seeing Alice is in the news again.

You never answered this question.

Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it?  Triggered by the death of one youth.

The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken.  BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation.

Everyone who works in that industry knows it.  No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it.

But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes.

You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.)

But let's try and fix them.  You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume?  What are you doing about just this one bloke? 

I'm only asking because  the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. 

After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem.  Bullet points will do.

You brought up the current situation in Alice Springs.  It appears to be a youth problem, is that not true?  I told you what the solution is to that, but good luck fixing that one, or even talking about it

As for the 45 year old, tell me what happened to him 40 years ago?  To solve problems you need to corrects the causes.  What caused him to be where he is today?

 Alice Springs had nothing to do with it except remind me of you talking about how everyone is in it for themselves, lining their pockets, and they don't give a fuck about helping the black fellas without offering any solutions a while back. 

Remind me again what is the solution? Because I read what you wrote at the top of the page and there's not a single tangible thing there.

Regards the 45 year old. What caused him to get in this situation is multi-faceted and complicated and that's a longer discussion. (And what's done is done.) I'm asking you what would you do to help that bloke NOW because according to you everyone who's trying to help is lining their pockets and the money's not going where it should. What do you think they should do? Because if you can't help this bloke then the whole cycle repeats.

And don't throw this back at me because I don't pretend to even know where to start.

Here's what you said:


Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are.  Step 3 address the causes.  Step 4.  audit the outcomes of Step 3.

Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them.  For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse.  Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so one.  This well known and well established. 


Yep. Agree with all that. Now what?

Treat the causes not just the symptoms.

Crime rates reached a four-year low in 2023, though they were still high by national standards, after limited bans on alcohol sales were re-introduced.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/what-s-happening-in-alice-springs-20240327-p5ffrt.html

Soo... not that hard afterall-don't sell the grog to them

Anderson said they would have an immediate effect, “however, they alone will not be enough”. She said it could lead to issues surrounding stockpiling alcohol and secondary supply, and the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/alcohol-bans-return-to-alice-springs-20230206-p5ci3y.html

Sure. Now what.

They can't get pissed. Problem's over?

Yep. Away you go.

Crime dropped.  So a major community problem gets fixed.

This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year.  Its taken 45 years.  In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is:

the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.

Really?  Who would've thunk it.

Yep. So what are you going to do to fix it seeing all the biggest brains in the country have tried to fix it for decades but can't. And they've spent billions.

What strategies are you putting in place to fix the problem because clearly you know better than all these 'do gooders'.

Genuine question. I'm actually interested in why you think it's so easy seeing billions of dollars and decades of failure have got us to this point.

So far from what I can pick up you're banning alcohol.  Problem over? 

What's the next step to rehabilitate the drunks and drug addicts, get them into productive employment, get everyone an else an education, provide adequate housing, decent healthcare and jobs to move into?

Hang on.  HOW have they tried to fix it?  What have they actually done?  Its been decades and billions of dollars and we're stiil at the point of: underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.  Really? No audits have been done?  No-ones accountable?  For decades?  That is a scandal.

There are two ways to motivate and change human behaviour.  The carrot or the stick.  Neither work if the person doesn't want to change.  If they don't want to change then ultimately they will self-destruct and the problem dies when they do. 

Alcohol abuse is the number one cause of the problems.  Fix that and you go a long way to fixing the problem.  But something something racism, freedom and the Coalition policy to deny alcohol was allowed to lapse by Labor.  Crime went through the roof again.  Clearly the stick does work. 

Take it further, no cash for you, coupons for food only, rent directly paid to a rental provider. Mandatory attendance at drug and re-habilitation and healthcare programs.

Crime? Violence?  Jail.

Government policies for education, health,  income benefits, rent assistance are the same for everyone who is in need. Its free.  Why does that need to be different here?  Why is that not sufficient  for the 45 year old aboriginal drunk? Well the answer is: for the same reason its not sufficient for a 45 year old white drunk/drug addict. They're drunk/drugged out.  You can't attend school or be healthy if you're drunk or drugged all the time.

  Alcohol and drug abuse and socio-economic disadvantage is a chicken an egg situation.  Neverthelss the cycle has a beginning, and its in the home and often in childhood.  So you need to go back to where it begins.  If you're a male drunk abusing and bashing your wife and kids, you need to be removed and jailed.  If you're  an abusive and neglectful mother your kids gets taken away from you until you show you are not. Sticks and carrots.  Same as everyone who isn't indigenous.

The disclosures show major groups tied to the Yes campaign raked in more than $60 million, which was spent on advertising and other campaign material. Yes23 fundraising body Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition received $47.5 million, and the Uluru Dialogues group – via the University of New South Wales – received more than $11 million.Left-wing group GetUp gathered $1.7 million, and the Labor Party secured $400,000.

On the No side, Australians for Unity, received about $11 million, the Liberal Party $1.9 million, and high-profile campaigners Advance $1.3 million.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/yes-campaign-groups-received-millions-more-in-donations-than-no-side-in-voice-referendum-20240402-p5fgnu.html

Almost half a $billion flushed down the toilet that could have provided drug and alcohol rehabilitation services, healthcare, housing, education, food and clothing to indigenous people, so that the political class could feel good about "helping" TM.

Rather than rehash what I wrote before I'm dropping this in from further up the page.





I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done?

One of following 2 are possible.

(a) It's not that simple or....

(b) The people  involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.)

Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are?




'What have the actually done'?

Are you serious? There are literally hundreds of programs, probably thousands, that have been run successfully or unsuccessfully over decades. Are you saying they're doing nothing, they're not trying different strategies, they're not trying carrot and stick? You do know there's a cashless welfare card don't you?

They're not sitting around doing fuck all. Like I said before.

There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra.
......

I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia.

There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago.


And by the by indigenous people in Australia (3% of the total population) are the biggest group in jail (30%).

So how's all that incarceration working out? Clearly it achieves fuck all. But you know what it does do? It makes RWNJs feel warm and fuzzy about locking miscreants up.


I've said this before, if it were so 'easy' to sort out it would have been 'fixed' a long time ago.

Perhaps when you've finished advising the government on epidemic management you can turn your big brain to sorting out indigenous issues in Australia. (And this has nothing to with which party is in because both mobs have had decades to do whatever they wanted and it's still a disaster.)

No audits eh?

Literally the time it took to type the search term into the bar.

https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/evaluating-indigenous-programs
https://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/closing-gap/implementation-measures/dohac-program-audit
https://aifs.gov.au/resources/policy-and-practice-papers/what-works-effective-indigenous-community-managed-programs-andhttps://www.niaa.gov.au/resource-centre/indigenous-affairs/evaluation-indigenous-employment-programs-final-report


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/dutton-price-want-indigenous-spending-audited-20231003-p5e9fb.html

The Australian National Audit Office has completed several reviews of Indigenous agencies or policies each year over recent decades, with 22 audits completed while the Coalition held power from 2013 to 2022.


Get your hand off it trying to pretend they're not monitoring and auditing programs around Australia. Of course they are and they have been for decades. You either know they and you're talking out of your arse or you don't have a clue and you're like every second old man down at the pub whinging about the gub'ment.

Did you actually read any of your links to the audits? I don't think so

From your Link #1:

Five years after the introduction of the IAS, the department is in the early stages of implementing an evaluation framework that has the potential..

From Link #2

The Department of Health and Aged Care will conduct a department-wide audit of programs

From  Link #3

Page not found.

From Link #4

A row over federal spending is clouding the final phase of the referendum on the Indigenous Voice to parliament, with No campaigners demanding an audit of the money spent on First Australians and a former federal minister backing the call.

Opposition Leader Peter Dutton linked the spending to the Voice debate by saying the money should be checked

So your "evidence" these programs are being audited amounts  to audits that are in  "early stages" with "potential" that "will" or "should" happen.

They've doen fuck all ACTUAL auditing.
FUCKING LOL

So once you leave anger at the door when things don't fit your world view, maybe, just maybe you need to question your world view.  Fuck all chance of that though, isn't there?

Oh and that The Age article actually argues AGAINST you, not for.

Just 5 months ago, too

“I don’t think anyone could genuinely say that Indigenous people are getting value for money,” said Vanstone, who was responsible for Indigenous affairs during the Howard government.

“It’s apparent that we’re not being effective. It’s not so much where’s the money going – because that carries a sort of pejorative inference that you think it’s being wasted and that Indigenous people are wasteful.“And that’s not necessarily my view. I want to know what’s being effective and to get rid of the ineffective stuff and put it into more effective stuff. And I don’t think we have that map. I’m pretty sure we don’t.

So as of 5 MONTHS ago, no-one in the public service either knows or has told the government, what actually works and what doesn't.

Its a fucking $40 billion dollar scandal that could only be gotten away with by the public service and government.