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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. So you don't care that scientific-publishing ... like every area of life where human beings are involved ... is biased against ideas that are not the majority? Not that you don't care, but you don't factor that in. To be part of the sheep herd, it is very comfortable. All you have to do is knock back any ideas that the majority flock doesn't accept. No one can force, or train or teach you to be a truth-seeker. It has to come from the heart. And not everyone seeks truth. He was denied a permit because he's a crank but they eventually gave him one. Clap. Clap. Clap. Where's the link to the peer reviewed paper that was published in a reputable journal following him receiving a permit?
Member since 2008.
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tsf
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. To be part of the sheep herd, it is very comfortable. being a part of the church is the very definition of being a sheep in the herd
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johnsmith
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. To be part of the sheep herd, it is very comfortable. being a part of the church is the very definition of being a sheep in the herd I agree with you party. In churches, there are many non-thinking people. The same patterns of non-thinking behaviour that tsf and Muz exhibit are also seen in people who attend churches. tsf, you exhibit this non-thinking in your statement, because you categorise people by grouping, rather than their actions. e.g. For people that find strength and safety in being part of the crowd, there are such people inside and outside churches. e.g. For people that trust their authorities in their culture rather than testing facts and evidence, there are such people inside and outside churches.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. To be part of the sheep herd, it is very comfortable. being a part of the church is the very definition of being a sheep in the herd I agree with you party. In churches, there are many non-thinking people. How's that link coming along?
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy.
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tsf
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review. Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon. Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts. * Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals.
Member since 2008.
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tsf
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fucking lol
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review. Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon. Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts. * Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals. Just listen to yourself you flog
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review. Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon. Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts. * Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals. [/quote]Just listen to yourself you flog I did. And I'm quiet happy with what I wrote and the character assessment I've made, because I'm not the one claiming I know everything about everything and the answers are all trivial if only they'd come and ask. That's you.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points
The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time.
ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old?
Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago?
That's a pretty big gap.
Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going.
This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils.
But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document.
They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away.
There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience.
You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything.
If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'.
For what purpose? Testing us I guess.
I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.'
https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232
I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm:
Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals.
I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore.
Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah.
It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this.
TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation
In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.)
I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_Lisle
Earth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.
The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks.
The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.html
https://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarity
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/
You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't.
So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God?
Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals.
Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers.
This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science.
https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?
As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere.
Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal?
I'll wait.
Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy.
yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped
Its not in their interest to do that.
DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up.
Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review.
Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon.
Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts.
* Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals. Just listen to yourself you flog [/quote]I did. And I'm quiet happy with what I wrote and the character assessment I've made, because I'm not the one claiming I know everything about everything and the answers are all trivial if only they'd come and ask. That's you. You're the only fuckwit thats drawn that conclusion.
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johnsmith
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong. Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review. Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon. Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts. * Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals.
Just listen to yourself you flog I did. And I'm quiet happy with what I wrote and the character assessment I've made, because I'm not the one claiming I know everything about everything and the answers are all trivial if only they'd come and ask. That's you. [/quote]You're the only fuckwit thats drawn that conclusion. I doubt it but if so I'm happy with the conclusion I've drawn.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped Its not in their interest to do that. DYOR and simply type is peer review reliable in a search engine that doesn't track you, and see what comes up. Its been estimated that of all the thousands of journals, only around 10 have reasonable ( although still flawed) peer review. Way better to just go straight to you and ask. The whole system is 'fucked'. Shoot Enzo and email and he'll give the the good oil within a minute or two if he's not working on the AUKUS deal or the new vaccine protocols or he's not passing judgement on extremely complex criminal or civil cases or he's not busy fixing decades of waste and failed programs in indigenous communities or if he can stop working on his dark matter paper for *Nature and before he debunks evolution later this afternoon. Just listen to yourself you flog. The arrogance and chutzpah is off the charts. * Warning: Journal may not be on the list of 'approved' Enzo journals. Just listen to yourself you flog
I did.
And I'm quiet happy with what I wrote and the character assessment I've made, because I'm not the one claiming I know everything about everything and the answers are all trivial if only they'd come and ask.
That's you. You're the only fuckwit thats drawn that conclusion. [/quote]I doubt it but if so I'm happy with the conclusion I've drawn. What, that you're a fuckwit..sounds legit.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xWould you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is alos false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary. You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface.
Member since 2008.
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johnsmith
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You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence.
Muz, the link below is for a video -- a book made into a movie -- by Lee Strobel. He was an investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune, and an atheist. When his wife became a Christian, Lee Strobel was horrified, and spent many months investigating the claims of Christianity - with the aim to debunk them in order to save his wife from her derangement. But as Lee Strobel reviewed the evidence, with the thoroughness of an investigative journalist, Lee Strobel came to the conclusion that the evidence was irrefutable for a case for Christ being the Jewish Messiah and God. And there are many such books, you'll find on amazon.com, where barristers, lawyers and trial lawyers who were atheists, set about to go through the evidence in order to debunk it ... and thereby became followers of Christ, after testing the evidence. A Google search for - books of lawyers proving the gospel - will bring up a lot of information. For myself, I have gone through that process of testing the proof and evidence. Muz, in a free society, you're entitled to spout your opinion ... but one thing you cannot say credibly is that the gospel is "without proof or evidence" for the divinity of Christ, as proved by his Resurrection, If you watch this movie, link below, at least you'll be able to know what stuff Christians assert is their "proof or evidence". https://youtu.be/hzespY6MyFA?
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Muz
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You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence.
For myself, I have gone through that process of testing the proof and evidence.If you watch this movie, link below, at least you'll be able to know what stuff Christians assert is their "proof or evidence". https://youtu.be/hzespY6MyFA? No you haven't. There's not a literal thing you can point to that proves god's existence. Literally nothing more than the 'vibe' or your 'feelings' (or should I say wishful thinking.) Zero evidence. But seeing we're posting links that neither of us will look at here's 2 for you. https://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
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tsf
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johnsmith
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I've got Richard Dawkins' book, "The God Delusion". Dawkins mangles the gospel into something unrecognisable - and then says that a God who would do that is a monster. Dawkins proves my point: that I've never met one person, who could accurately describe the New Testament message, and reject it. All the people I've met, who reject the message, have a grotesquely distorted view of the gospel. i.e. they're not rejecting Christ's message. They're rejecting an urban-myth of Christ's message.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary. [/quote]You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points
The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time.
ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old?
Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago?
That's a pretty big gap.
Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going.
This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils.
But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document.
They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away.
There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience.
You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything.
If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'.
For what purpose? Testing us I guess.
I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.'
https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232
I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm:
Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals.
I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore.
Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah.
It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this.
TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation
In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.)
I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_Lisle
Earth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.
The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks.
The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.html
https://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarity
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/
You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't.
So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God?
Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals.
Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers.
This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science.
https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?
As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere.
Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal?
I'll wait.
Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy.
yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped
No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is.
As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.
Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/
To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified".
They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. [/quote]You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else. And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool. Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church and believing in made up bullshit decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE. Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not. Because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because, you know, indoctrination. You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'.
LMFAO.
You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed.
Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute.
Talk about nothing to 'lean on'.
Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else. [/quote]And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool. Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE. Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because you were literally indoctrinated. You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it. You stereotype people and project your own struggles onto them. According to you they are too brainwashed to come out the other side like you did. Or have you considered that they know all you know, and know it better, and maybe they know things you don't. Maybe they have delved deeper in to the science you have blind faith in and found that nope, this doesn't explain it? But what really matters is that you have no right to convert others to ypur new religion, because you don't know the truth. Do you?
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tsf
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points
The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time.
ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old?
Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago?
That's a pretty big gap.
Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going.
This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils.
But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document.
They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away.
There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience.
You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything.
If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'.
For what purpose? Testing us I guess.
I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.'
https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232
I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm:
Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals.
I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore.
Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah.
It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this.
TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation
In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.)
I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_Lisle
Earth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.
The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks.
The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.html
https://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarity
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/
You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't.
So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God?
Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals.
Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers.
This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science.
https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?
As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere.
Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal?
I'll wait.
Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy.
yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped
No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is.
As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.
Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/
To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified".
They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. [/quote]I don't struggle with my religious upbringing a read of any of your posts suggest you do unrelated note, just a general question, do you still believe in santa, easter bunny and the tooth fairy? or just the big fella in the clouds one?
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary. You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface.
You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all.
You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it.
I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique.
I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else.
And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool. Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE. Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because you were literally indoctrinated. You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it. [/quote]You stereotype people and project your own struggles onto them. According to you they are too brainwashed to come out the other side like you did. Or have you considered that they know all you know, and know it better, and maybe they know things you don't. Maybe they have delved deeper in to the science you have blind faith in and found that nope, this doesn't explain it? But what really matters is that you have no right to convert others to ypur new religion, because you don't know the truth. Do you? Fark you love putting words in people's mouths. It's a pretty disingenuous way to make a point. Nowhere have I ever said religious people should be converted to atheists. Of course you don't struggle with your religious upbringing. To do so would put you in a situation of self reflection whereby you might realise all this 'faith' stuff has been a giant waste of time and you've been fed a lie. I completely understand why you don't. Intellectually dishonest.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary. [/quote]You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else.
And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool.
Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE.
Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because you were literally indoctrinated.
You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it. You stereotype people and project your own struggles onto them. According to you they are too brainwashed to come out the other side like you did. Or have you considered that they know all you know, and know it better, and maybe they know things you don't. Maybe they have delved deeper in to the science you have blind faith in and found that nope, this doesn't explain it? But what really matters is that you have no right to convert others to ypur new religion, because you don't know the truth. Do you? [/quote]Fark you love putting words in people's mouths. It's a pretty disingenuous way to make a point. Nowhere have I ever said religious people should be converted to atheists. Of course you don't struggle with your religious upbringing. To do so would put you in a situation of self reflection whereby you might realise all this 'faith' stuff has been a giant waste of time and you've been fed a lie. I completely understand why you don't. Intellectually dishonest. But if they don't convert to atheism they should be ignored, sidelined and ostracized from any political or social causes and decisions, be subject to a parallel legal system, until they do, right? Admit that's how you work. Even though atheism is actually the minority, locally and even more so globally. Democracy eh? I believe its not for me tell people their faith has been a waste of time or to be excluded on the basis of their faith. I've seen enough murder, war, death, suffering and abuse in the name of atheists and secularists.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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double
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232
I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm:
Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals.
I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore.
Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah.
It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this.
TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation
In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.)
I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_Lisle
Earth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.
The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks.
The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.html
https://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarity
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/
You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't.
So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God?
Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals.
Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers.
This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science.
https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?
As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere.
Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal?
I'll wait.
Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy.
yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped
No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is.
As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.
Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/
To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified".
They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'. LMFAO. You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed. Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute. Talk about nothing to 'lean on'. Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. [/quote]You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else. And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool. Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE. Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because you were literally indoctrinated. You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it.
You stereotype people and project your own struggles onto them. According to you they are too brainwashed to come out the other side like you did.
Or have you considered that they know all you know, and know it better, and maybe they know things you don't. Maybe they have delved deeper in to the science you have blind faith in and found that nope, this doesn't explain it?
But what really matters is that you have no right to convert others to ypur new religion, because you don't know the truth. Do you?
Fark you love putting words in people's mouths. It's a pretty disingenuous way to make a point. Nowhere have I ever said religious people should be converted to atheists. Of course you don't struggle with your religious upbringing. To do so would put you in a situation of self reflection whereby you might realise all this 'faith' stuff has been a giant waste of time and you've been fed a lie. I completely understand why you don't. Intellectually dishonest. [/quote]But if they don't convert to atheism they should be ignored, sidelined and ostracized from any political or social causes and decisions, be subject to a parallel legal system, until they do, right? Admit that's how you work. Even though atheism is actually the minority, locally and even more so globally. Democracy eh? I believe its not for me tell people their faith has been a waste of time or to be excluded on the basis of their faith. I've seen enough murder, war, death, suffering and abuse in the name of atheists and secularists. There you go putting words in my mouth again. Weird to base your faith system on what some despot in Cambodia, China or Russia did or believed but here we are. I'm not religious because of this.......... Religious war - Wikipedia.......but you'd be well within your rights if you decided not to be.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]Would you be kind enough to summarise? The big hill to climb is overcoming bias. For example, if I were to try to convince you that humans don't need air and water -- that proposition is so ludicrous to you, that you would instantly brand me an idiot - and refuse to spend time canvassing my arguments. That seems the right way to go ... Except that you realise the vast majority of people do that - insult and shut their eyes to evidence - for literally every area in their life. In the biggest health issue of our time, Covid vaccines, people just "insulted and shut their eyes" and gladly took an experimental MRNA substance that changes the way your body's cells behave. Then middle of this year in 2023, doctors from Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University are saying the Covid vaccines are dangerous, based on many peer-reviewed journal articles. https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287The other side's doctors where never idiots. The other side's arguments were based on scientific data and principles. It's just that the majority have safely lived most of their life, with no consequences for "insulting and shutting their eyes". So they cannot change, when they are presented with evidence. What I'm saying is, in the Evolution-Creation debate, the other side's scientific data and scientific arguments are not ludicrous. Instead, our culture's assumption is that anything which points to the existence of God is automatically branded as ludicrous. And so it triggers people to act in their normal "insult and ignore" pattern of behaviour. The fact is, if the world was created in 6 days, then there must be a God. That is why atheist-scientists will always favour the scientific argument -- even the weaker argument - that goes away from a young earth. Because, to do otherwise, they would have to consider God. Do a search for - soft tissue dinosaur bones A good scientist considers all possibilities - whereas a biased-scientist (and the last 2 years have shown how scientist are just like all of us in their thinking) will limit their thinking to their biases. Thus, if you search for articles - soft tissue dinosaur bones - you'll note that not one atheist-scientist will consider that the preservation of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is because the world was created in 6 days, and hence dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years. To summarise some key objections: There is the argument that folk legends of dragons exist in all countries around the globe. e.g. St. George and the Dragon in the British Isles, and legends of dragons in China. It is postulated that these dragon legends point to a time when there was a remnant of dinosaurs still living. Regarding Noah's Ark, conceivably all that would have been necessary was to bring two juvenile animals which take up less space than adults. Every issue of the Evolution-Creation debate has genuine-plausible scientific evidence and reasoning on both sides. Like the vaccine issue, it is silly to dismiss the other side as being idiots with no evidence. e.g. the layers of rock seen around the world. The Evolutionist says that is due to millions of years of laying down sediment. But, on the other hand, we have seen the geophysics of how such layers can be created within a matter of hours - in the catastrophic mud slides of Mount St Helens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPzSebeH8LIAnd how these layers stretch across many continents. And there is no wearing down of the layers (which would have been, if each layers had been exposed to the atmosphere for millions of years). And that you see bends in the layers; whereas hard brittle rock would shatter if it is bent. In other words, the scientific arguments from the other side are not ludicrous. And, moreover, when you examine each point for point, it is the totality of the evidence that builds the case. Plus, the Evolution side has massive holes in their theory. It is the complexity of DNA, and the sheer impossibility of creating that complexity out of nothing, by sheer randomness, that caused hardened atheists to concede that God exists. But once a person takes the next step to consider the existence of God, they run into the next wall: which of the numerous spirits, claiming to be God, which is the true God? And for that, God has made a way to navigate the hundreds of thousands of religions and philosophies. Thank for the answer, but it moved a little away. Who do you think invented Dinosaurs and why does pretty much everybody believe in them? TBF, the argument (non-scientific) that the earth was conceived in a week 6000 years ago by one man on paper is ludicrous, but I am more than happy to have my mind changed if you stay on topic (drop the vaccine chat) and give some solid bullet points The difference is they believe they 'dinosaurs' existed alongside humans at the same time. ahhh ok, so the dinosaurs are only 6k years old? Ok, then maybe I should ask him why are scientists lying about them being from a couple of hundred million years ago? That's a pretty big gap. Actually dinosaurs were apparently taken on the ark. (Juveniles though so less room you see.) So they're only 4500 years old and then however long it took them to die out after they walked from Mt Ararat to wherever they were going. This is why I was asking him why aren't dinosaur fossils found with other fossils. But to your point, they just circle back to their starting position which is a belief in god and the literal belief in the bible as a historical document. They start from there and retrofit all their 'evidence' into proving the bible true. The mental gymnastics they perform is incredible. It doesn't matter if you throw up any evidence they just bat it away. There's literally recorded (as in written) history that goes back 7000 years. Cross checked and matched against astronomical events and wars, empires and dynasties. Literally older than the earth's age in the bible. No matter to them. Merely an inconvenience. You can literally go down to the Antarctic and drag out an ice core 10's of thousands of years old which they'll explain away. There's literally hundreds of explanations with twisted and distorted logic for everything. If you ever happen to corner them on anything they're fall back position is 'Well god made the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago TO LOOK LIKE it was 4.6 billion years old'. For what purpose? Testing us I guess. I'd be interested if (lowercase) johnsmith is a believer in Intelligent Design. I'd say he was. I almost hope he is. The list of the flaws with the absolute shitshow that is the human body is extensive. Here's a fun article. Scroll down to the bit about eyes. They love to say stuff like 'the eye is too complicated to evolve.' https://partner.sciencenorway.no/evolution-genetics-natural-sciences/evolutionary-flaws-disprove-the-theory-of-intelligent-design/1670232 I was completely unaware there are people who believed in this. A whole new world has been opened up :ermm: Did you notice it was all crickets on why aren't dinosaur fossils found alongside humans and other animals. I'm also interested why the Babylonians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians have no contemporary accounts of giant brachiosaurs, diplodocus', t-rex's or triceratops roaming the middle east during their day and age. Zero accounts. Dinosaurs are not the sort of thing you could easily ignore. Even the most hardened bible literalist would admit other cultures had recorded history predating Noah. It's absolutely clear why some people will never believe anything to do with common sense and science in other areas (health, climate etc) if they believe in this. TBH I am not even sure why we have hospitals (or anything really) if it's all in god's will and creation In terms of common sense, what is your common sense reaction to the information about the earth's magnetic field being calculated to be 6,000 years old. (See my post on page 10 where I discussed the video by astrophysicist Jason Lisle.) I await with interest the submission of his paper for peer review. Until then my 'common sense reaction' is he's full of shit with regards to the claim. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jason_LisleEarth’s magnetic field is decaying - This is a well known creationist argument. The dipole component of the Earth’s magnetic field is indeed decreasing, but other components are not necessarily decreasing. The magnetic field is due to a dynamo effect in the Earth interior, and has fluctuated and changed polarity many times in the geological past. It's been decreasing for millennia, in anticipation of a geomagnetic reversal[14] — which will bring the field back up to full strength again, albeit with different poles.The reversal of the earth's magnetic filed is a well known phenomenon. It's writ large in igneous rocks. The process by which rocks get magnetized occurs when they are formed, Coe explained. Scientists know much more about how volcanic rocks become magnetized than they do about sedimentary rocks. As igneous rocks cool, for example, they become magnetized in the direction of the field prevailing at the moment. This process may take a few days or a few years and provides a “snapshot” of the Earth’s magnetic field, he added. Consequently, by studying many different rocks formed during different geologic periods, researchers can create a record of the Earth’s history of magnetic wanderings.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/12/magnetic-reversals.htmlhttps://theconversation.com/the-earths-magnetic-field-reverses-more-often-now-we-know-why-96957https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/it-true-earths-magnetic-field-occasionally-reverses-its-polarityhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earths-magnetic-field-reversal-took-three-times-longer-than-thought/ You're not going to get articles -- advocating Creation, 6 day creation, the existence of God
Correct. You won't. So let me understand you ... you're going to wait for atheist-scientists to prove that God exists ... in peer-reviewed journals ... before you take a step in your own life to search for God? Nope. I'm waiting for YEC scientists to prove the earth is 6000 years old via published papers submitted for peer review in established credible journals. Last year, you said that you'll only listen to peer-reviewed papers. This video recounts the court case that spanned years that it took to fight the system, fighting the bias in the academic community, to get fairness to operate in science. https://youtu.be/dESkfaURR38?As has been said, Muz and tsf live in a world where there is no bias in opinions, every person is objective and heeds scientific principles, where governments never make mistakes, where people are not corrupted to do wrong for financial gain. The same bias you see in every day life ... that does not change just because the person has a university degree in science. People are the same everywhere. Link to a peer reviewed paper in a reputable journal? I'll wait. Peer review is mostly broken anyway. Everyone in the game knows it. But it keeps the grants coming and the papers churning so everyone is happy. yeah, academics are fighting to have per reviewed scrapped No. The academics, who make their living off the system (money) are the ones who want the system to remain as it is. As I've said before, tsf (lowercase) and Muz live in the world where - there is no money-corruption, the Media never lies, government workers never make mistakes, and the majority of people who believe everything they hear believe that the mob is never wrong.Just today there is an ongoing Hearing on the Possible Inappropriate Relationship Between Top Scientific Journals and U.S. Government, see the link below: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/watch-live-house-select-subcommittee-coronavirus-pandemic-hearing/ To do otherwise would challenge their world views to their foundations. They feel secure in the belief that there all these institutions who have their back, full of competent people acting in their best interests, you know because these people are "reputable" and "qualified". They've turned their backs on their faith, so if this is also false, they have nothing to lean on. Scary.
You've based your whole life on something without proof or evidence. Nothing more than the fact you grew up with a belief in some god that you had foisted upon you and you have the gumption to say 'if this is also false'.
LMFAO.
You've wasted literally 40+ years believing in a story literally imprinted into your malleable child mind when you were an infant. Literally no choice but to be brainwashed.
Not for one minute would you be the religion you are if you were born into another culture. Literally not one minute.
Talk about nothing to 'lean on'.
Deluded doesn't scratch the surface. You have no formal scientific education beyond reading New Scientist, so you know two fifths of fuck all. You don't have a deep understandingof the compexity of life and reality. There are many who do have that deep understanding and rather being less convinced of their faith, they are even more convinced by it. I hold an MSc. I was not raised in a Big C family. I know how the two can co-exist and I am far from unique. I don't struggle with my religious upbringing like you do. What I struggle with is people like you who demand others choose as you have. Or else. [/quote]And now we have an amateur psychologist on deck. I'm struggling with my religious upbringing am I? Hahahaha. You fool. Fortunately for me I grew up in a family where I wasn't brainwashed by both parents. One was a believer, one wasn't. You know what that gave me? The ability to think and choose. I stopped going to church decades ago in my early teens because I HAD A CHOICE. Something your upbringing never gave you the opportunity to do. Now you're so invested in it you can't critically evaluate if it's even true or not because to do so would be an attack on your very character and an acceptance you have wasted a large part of your life believing in a fairytale because you were literally indoctrinated. You're worm food old mate. Made from the remnants of exploding stars and will return to dust in a few short years. In 75 years time not a single person will know you even existed. But cling to your superstitions if it brings you some comfort. Just like the blanky you had when you were a child. You cling to it. You stereotype people and project your own struggles onto them. According to you they are too brainwashed to come out the other side like you did. Or have you considered that they know all you know, and know it better, and maybe they know things you don't. Maybe they have delved deeper in to the science you have blind faith in and found that nope, this doesn't explain it? But what really matters is that you have no right to convert others to ypur new religion, because you don't know the truth. Do you?
Fark you love putting words in people's mouths. It's a pretty disingenuous way to make a point. Nowhere have I ever said religious people should be converted to atheists.
Of course you don't struggle with your religious upbringing. To do so would put you in a situation of self reflection whereby you might realise all this 'faith' stuff has been a giant waste of time and you've been fed a lie. I completely understand why you don't. Intellectually dishonest. But if they don't convert to atheism they should be ignored, sidelined and ostracized from any political or social causes and decisions, be subject to a parallel legal system, until they do, right? Admit that's how you work. Even though atheism is actually the minority, locally and even more so globally. Democracy eh? I believe its not for me tell people their faith has been a waste of time or to be excluded on the basis of their faith. I've seen enough murder, war, death, suffering and abuse in the name of atheists and secularists. [/quote]There you go putting words in my mouth again. Weird to base your faith system on what some despot in Cambodia, China or Russia did or believed but here we are. I'm not religious because of this.......... Religious war - Wikipedia.......but you'd be well within your rights if you decided not to be. I don't my base faith on what they did-which is a fucking lot affecting a huge proportion of the world's people. My faith stands on its own. Around 90% of the world's wars are NOT related to religion-from your link. So if you want war, death, destruction, oppression, crimes against humanity, choose secularism and its close cousin atheism.
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