Laughing out loud at the '7exy is good now, but Burton is still shit' crowd...

There's moments that you notice...
And after  la week of drinks I remember something about Moz last week... Hit up.. hip dropped... Grabbed his leg,.. Got up quickly as possible... Played the ball... A try a play or two later... He's tough as they come... Love him... Love them all... They work so hard ..

Let him get those 5 premierships under his belt tis decade then discuss the future...

Agreed...

Manncrush is bashing doors... 

I like this...
#voteHDRants...

Curran is bashing doors... Critter, Presto, Shoes, Hay Hah... The list don't stop...

Great fun... 

Big call.
One has runs on the board. And not fluffy "my opinion" runs......actual runs, like 3 consecutive premiership type runs.

You've got one thing right, in that Nathan is very influential in how that team has gone the last 5 years. 

But runs on the board are runs on the board. And you can't take that away, no matter what your opinion thinks. 

Our team is playing well, we are now finals bound and everyone is excited.

Just keep it in your pants please.

The most difficult job when teams have a premiership "window" is when to give up on certain high paid players and when to kick start the succession plan. 

Trying to keep that winning team together is futile, in a sakarry cap era. Only Roosters in 2019-20 and Penrith in '21-'24 have managed to do it. You have to go back years to find other examples. In AFL, its been Hawthorn in 2012-2015 and Richmond most recently.

To do it successfully means you need to "sacrifice" certain players to keep a nucleus of a team together and hope your newbies can plug the hole of their predecessors.

Our recent premierships ('95 and '04) indicated that we cannot keep our team together for a dynasty. Sane thing with Saints in 2010.

Im resigned to the fact that if we won a premiership, we wouldn't jag another till the next "window". But id be happy if it happened once every 10 years....

It may not be noticed, but Manncrush is #1 key to our attack improvement and in particular giving Sexxy the time and space to pick and choose who gets the ball in oir attacking raids. 

The 2004 players themselves know that it was a missed opportunity.

What we did wrong was give Sherwin and in particular Anasta priority over Thurston and were then unlucky because Sherwin's form dropped off. 

If we kept Price and Thurston I think that we win a few more comps.

We bungled recruitment and retention badly and inspite of his winning a premiership, Folksy was a fairly average coach.

Bullfrog was very sick when we won the 1995 premiership and died soon after. What followed was bungled and incompetent management for at least 2 decades.

Completely different story if we win a premiership with the team that built that success from the ground up in charge.

Gus learnt a few things from Bullfrog and the success at Melbourne and Penrith is partially built on some principles imported from the Bulldogs. 

What the club is doing now is very similar to what we did 1974-1984 and the 1995/2004 success was a carry over from that era.

Panthers success is due to multiple factors including the quality of the opposition and a few key plays in GFs. The guy that started that ball rolling was Stephen Crichton.

You seem like a fan that wasn't around 1974-1984 and doesn't understand how sustained success is built. You are often chasing the bright lights of the quick fix which is what built our repeated failure 2015-2023.

Just on your last paragraph.....
Im 46 so wasnt around for '74 and only minimal memories of 84. I remember 85 onwards quite well.

These however are pre-salary cap and professional sport eras so difficult to compare with modern day admin methods.

I value coaches and organisations that can sustain success even after the SC forces them to lose their talent. 

Well how about your fluffy opinion then.

Say Panthers get a fourth, and Cleary Snr gets bored with it, wants to prove something to himself and or everyone else.

Approaches The Dogs and says I know what Cirro’s best job is - assistant to me.

And in this bizarro alternate universe - you are The Gus of The Bulldogs, so it’s your call. Who’s coaching The Dogs in ‘25 and beyond? Cirro or Snr… without Jnr.

And say the same deal was offered to Souths and Melbourne, both knowing they’ve only got 3 years max out of Bellamy and Bennet in front of them, do you think they’d jump?

As you answer those questions, you’re also ranking Cleary yourself, so is anybody else.

When I answer them, the answer is 4th… unless he brings Jnr with him.

As the old saying goes winning starts at the front office. 

A club can be doing a lot of things right for a long time and still not win many comps, but a club like that usually features in the semis.

At the start 1973-1979 the Dogs were building a team of good young players who played an attractive style of footy from the ground up.

We didn't have instant success because pre-salary-cap the Roosters, Dragons,  Manly and Parra sides were stacked full of star players.

But eventually we won the 1980 premiership. 

The side was decimated with injuries in 1981 at full strength we probably had the side to win another comp, but we simply ran out of fit players. 

Jack Gibson took over Parra and in response Bullfrog was smart enough to hire Wok who changed the game far more than any coach before or since. The other coach who radically changed the game was also a dogs coach in 1974.

With a great coach building on a strong club we had a lot of success in the 1980s.

Then the Broncos entered the comp and they were more or less a QLD SOO team with a good coach. Some years we were the second best team in the comp, but were lacking in a few areas.

A really bad outcome for us was Melbourne entering the comp. Chris Anderson going to coach Melbourne and taking a lot of our talented lower grade players down there. 

We were looking at a total rebuild 1998-2002, even with an average coach and poor management the club culture from the 1970s and 1980s was still up to the task.

Kevin Moore and Co took over a total train wreck in 2009 and built a good roster for 2012. Des had success with the 2012 team Moore built, but poor recruitment and retention sent the team backwards.

With Des a lot of extra people came as unnecessary baggage and they totally trashed the remnants of the 1970s and 1980s culture, with predictable results.

In a few short years Gus and Cirro have built us back up to what we once were. It is even more exciting this time around,  because the challenge in 2023 was far bigger than 1973 and we seem to be progressing faster. Already we have the hard defensive edge of the Wok era, combined with sparkling attack from the 1970s. 

The only thing better than this is banking the premiership wins.

If you doubt anything that I am saying about the 2004 era, Mase makes similar comments frequently.

Buying the latest shiny thing whether it is a coach or a player only works when that guy is the last piece of a jigsaw or that guy can change the entire jigsaw.

Wok, Cirro and Critter are the type of guys that change the entire jigsaw.

I am not sure either Cleary really is that type of guy. 2025 will answer that.

Maintaining success is a lot easier than building success, because you start out as an attractive successful destination.

If coach Cleary really is that good,  how come he didn't have success first time around at the Panthers?

These are hypotheticals....
Teams that are doing well and on the way up arent looking to sack their current coach for a payout and take up an offer from some other coach. 

Remember Des had to bide his time to get a gold coast gig.

Mind you if Cleary approached most teams, they'd consider it. The only ones that wouldn't do so would be Melb, Souths, possibly Sharks and us. Not coz we think CC is better than Cleary, but because CC has a long contract with what would be a good severance pay and quite frankly, things are going well atm. 

But if this were last year or we look like we are stagnant next year or beyond that -absolutely we would. Same goes for Sharks. 

Good insight. 
Fingers crossed the 2 key attributes you mentioned from the 70's and 80's, yield the results. 

I disagree.
I think the formula for building success is simple but requires the key ingredient of patience.

Not just patience from fans, but from sponsors, board members etc. With the game being as much about business as it is about sport, its tough to sell the Patience pill and get away with it.

Salary cap floor and the limits on front/back loading contracts have made it more difficult for bottom clubs to get out of their hole.

But IMO, continued success when your team is being stripped apart due to premierships or finals success is the hardest thing for a coach to do. 

Penrith had no right to win a 3rd successive premiership. But they did and it wasn't done by Snr doing the same thing. He had to change the team's focal points from a forward power game, to a game dominated by edges and backline players. He lost kry personnel so he had to adapt to what he had as replacements.

I remember a quote from an AFL commentator when Hawthorn won its 3rd straight premiership in 2015... He said the salary cap and the draft are designed so that this sort of thing (treble) is made impossible. To overcome these rules /restrictions, you have to make important retention decisions and re-invent yourself and the way you play.

Hats off to any coach that can win 3 in a row. As ive said many times over, Cleary doesnt get enough credit for what has been achieved at Penrith. But in years to come, i think he will.

We’re in bizarro world remember, there’s no payouts, no court cases, just a simple opportunity to swap out Cirro for Snr for ‘25 and beyond with no consequences.

And as I said by your answer you’d be ranking Snr, well you’ve ranked him 5th - because of a contract you say.

Well bizarro universe with no consequences and you’re boss - are you swapping out Cirro for Snr? Would Melb, would Souths would… Cronulla?

Very hard to even start on sustained success without a good board and management team. 

In the modern era the football manager job Gus does is very important and similar to what Bullfrog used to do.

I agree that it is hard to attract a good coach and good players to a club that has finished down the bottom of the table for a few seasons. 

That is one reason why the 2023 rebuild was harder than 1973. The other reason is that the joint was a total mess in every area around 2018-2020, and it takes a long time for fixing juniors/ scouting/ development to pay off, 

Gus and Des could have worked,  but there is no coach I prefer to Cirro. 

Cirro gets some results that I don't fully understand,  even Wok didn't do that.

In any case Cleary jnr and senior are probably not going anywhere. 

I am interested to see how the Panthers go in 2025.

Because IMO Fish, Critter,  Lusi, Kiks and Spencer played a role in setting up the culture. 

Also with Edwards,  Martin, Yeo, Cleary and To'o.

The ability to replace departing players with locally produced talent is an attribute of a strong club, that isn't all done by the NRL coach.

2025 will be interesting because other clubs including the Dogs should be stronger. Also guys like Critter and Luai deciding to leave is possibly a bad sign. Maybe the playing group isn't as tight as it once was,

Don't underestimate how much difference hard work makes in coaching and playing and how much conditioners, assistant coaches and players contribute. 

I got to say… surprisingly… that currently Willie Mason is the best analysis in the game, better than Cronk and the rest.

F***in’ amazing.

He swears too much, and I know I can’ttalk there, but I think he swears mostly to be “cool” rather than naturally and it doesn’t quite land.

Horo says he talks to current players from different teams. And in regards to fitness they tell him - 

“Bulldogs are a different level”.

I agree Mase is great and swearing doesn't bother me, I would rather that he speaks in his natural way.

Not suitable for TV with young kids watching,  but most Aussie kids are swearing by the end of primary school,  if not long before that.

We are definitely the fitest team in the comp this year, Panthers probably second but not the whole team, guys like Edwards are lifting the averages.

In fact I recon this is the fittest,  most mobile and most skilful Dogs side I have ever seen.  And we were very fit and skilful 1973-2004

Dogs sides were known for their fitness 80s, 90s and early 2000s. Willie and Thurston talk about how hard we used to work then. 

All this years team is lacking compare to 2004 is size, intimidation and explosive power. I would love to have q guy like Orge or Big Roy in this side, a guy that runs straight at the hardest hit.

I think that we could even win the comp this year,  I can't totally rule it out and bookies are slowly warming to the idea. I don't expect it, but stranger things have happened. 

The only real bad loss we have had since Sexton  has been  starting was against the Chooks in the rain. I don't think that loss was as bad as it seemed,  we were missing Critter and Burto, and it was one of those nights where the conditions didn't suit us and nothing went right.

With the current rapport CC has with the players - No you couldnt do it. Although doing it wouldnt be the worst thing. 

But does that mean CC is better than Cleary? - no way. 

One has runs on the board. The other has 1 failed year and 1 good year on record. 

I think you'll find they will still be successful as they have a winning formula and a halfback that is probably the best (next to Joey) at unlocking the talent around him. May not be premiership favourites but still a finals team. Their depth will be challenged though especially if jnr is out injured or on rep duty. 

There was definitely a culture group within that kept the team together. But after 3 x premierships, the "brotherhood" factor wears off and the "time to make money out of this sport" takes hold.

Havent seen the podcasts, but daw him on 360 once or twice and have the same conclusion.

Im very surprised at how well he knows the game. Didnt look it when he was playing. 

Talk about premature. Ciro has nothing on so many other coaches in the game. He is doing well but hasn’t done anything yet. I may agree with you about him in five years time if we have won at least a couple of premierships. Made top four every year and are a constant threat to the premiers. 

It’s possible to do it. Just look at Melbourne. It’s so important to have great junior scouts. And have a system where you can replace players easily. I think we could do that and we certainly are trying.