a ha nice blog gaz - i was impressed earlier this year when i watched my son in a game against daejeon citizen, i was impressed by the respect and discipline shown by the korean players to their coach,manager,captain.....(very little was shown to the opposition,fiercely contested including elbows,spitting and physical intimidation), however during the match i observed the head coach direct the manager to make changes, then return to his seat, the manager barked out orders,every player took notice as if his life depended on it,an so on it went,i thought this is unusual the head guy doesnt address the players during the game.......then after the match ,all the players form a ring, with the head coach in the middle, we managed a 3-3 draw which obviously was not good enough to the koreans, the coach tore strips off them, well i can only assume he did because his tone and demeanor was agro,stomping feet,screaming advice and pointing at players,then he made the korean grunt and bow,all the players grunted back and bowed, head coach exits stage right, then the manager steps up and repeats the procedure adding his 20 cents worth, then the captain stepped up and had his turn screaming stomping and gesticulating agressivly then the grunt and bow completed the session before they all trotted off on their merry way, seems to me this could be akin to war for these people,as well as pride,respect and of course winning,i also think perhaps a little of this discipline would serve the aussie team well,instead of the ill disciplined display we were dished up monday night,and the consequent multitude of excuses for a pathetic performance.........


What do you think about the FourFourTwo blog Style v. Stereotypes?
Do the elements which shape a nation's character also shape its football destiny? While stereotypes based on racism and ignorance can be misleading, there's no doubt that footballing nations play to ...

Have your say.

I've long found it interesting that British football is characterised by love of passion, commitment, loyalty etc. - in contrast to the reserved social image of the Brits.

Italian football seems the opposite.
Whilst Italian culture and crowd behavior is seen as much more spontaneous and emotional, the playing style and the play that is most highly regarded in Italy is much more tactical and cerebral.
It's almost as if football is an emotional outlet for Brits, but for the Italian who have more than enough 'emotion' in their lives, football is an outlet for more cerbral things.
Well, it's just a theory.

Batfink, your story about the head coach directing the manager had me wondering what would happen if Clive Palmer ever came down to the dugout and told Miron what to do. Scary thought!

Gnome, the English often exit the WC lamenting their lack of a pure out-and-out striker in the Italian, Spanish or South American mould. Even African nations seem better at producing these players, and maybe it's because that sort of personality (see Drogba, Ronaldo, etc) gets short shrift in the UK. The Socceroos suffer the same problem, and a look at the number of foreign strikers in the A-league confirms it.

As for the Italians, their technical skills are always fantastic. Maybe that comes down to the love of showing off? I think the level of tactical control in Serie A comes down to the fierce competition for places.

I would argue it is more to do with the youth academy and the ideology of the coaches and trainers throughout the development process. It is more to do with their perception of how a 'good' footballer should play.

We must bear in mind that we have reformed our youth system in Australia so there is still hope for us in developing some top quality players.

Vaugh2111, I'd agree with you about the development process. My suggestion is that "their perception of how a 'good' footballer should play" reflects what Italians value in football, and so how they develop their players.
I think you see it in the development of Vince Grella in Italy. He always was feisty, but in Italy he seems to have learned to avoid losing the ball as a priority, as well as still being a terrier like ball winner. Giving up possession seems a much bigger sin in Italy than other places, especially Britain, so players focus much more on it.
Whilst British football values a range of characteristics including skill, none seems to rated higher than "bottle".

In Italy you are more likely to be bagged for poor skill, in Britain for lack of commitment.

GazGoldCoast. Agree with you comments about the Latin players and liking to show off, I think it is a big bonus in a striker/goalscorer. In Brit football, if you try something and it fails, you are more likely to get the 'selfish' tag from commentators. Simon Hill regularly makes comments like this in his commentary - failed shots are often 'a bit indulgent', 'a bit selfish' etc. (Ironically the coaches are usually working overtime to get forwards to 'shoot first, think second'.)
I also think 'not showing off' contributes to the inability of lots of Asian teams to shoot well. I've worked a lot with Asian students and in many of their cultures, what you might call 'showing off' is very strongly discouraged, right from a young age. I've often wondered if this is behind their poor striking skills, which contrast with often great skills in the middle of the park.

It's interesting there to compare South Korea with Japan. I have also worked with students from both countries, and the Japanese kids today are clearly a LOT more Westernized (for better or worse). You can see an additional level of flair in the Japanese style of play, but it's not being transformed into good results lately.

Most people seem to think that's due to Okada's coaching, and it's hard to disagree. Maybe this is a situation where the older generation has to get out of the way? Or do the young Japanese players need to be pulled into line by a tough, no-nonsense coach?

doesnt clive tell miron what to do now??? lol
at half time in the dressing room??

It's only natural Japan is more westernized, they have been exposed far longer than Korea. If you think about it S.Korea has only been open to the rest of the world for about 50 years, after the war, and even today many people still think S.Korea is a war torn 3rd world country. I think in the future Korea will become more like Japan in social aspects, but I don't think football will change too much. Both nations have their own styles. Japan has always gone for pretty football, while Korea is more physical hence why they are getting better results. if you looked at the match between these two, Korea completely outmuscled Japan, which resulted in Japan being unable to play stylish fast passing football, although I haven't seen much flair from Japan lately.

I think that applies more to North Korea, who are maybe holding back Western perceptions of the South? For example, when Hyundais first started selling out here, a lot of people looked on them with disdain, but now Aussies are queuing up to get these super energy-efficient, lightweight, and cheap vehicles. I reckon South Korea is becoming a lightweight version of Japan in Western eyes, just as Hyundais are lightweight versions of Hondas. North Korea, on the other hand, is just a basket case....




Yeah, agreed. Koreans certainly identify with the physical aspects of the game, whereas Japanese like the more tactical and technical stuff. But I think Korea's physical game has less impact when you come up against big European teams like Germany, so they will have to get more "pretty" if they want to take the next step up. I think they CAN (*) make the Group stage, but after that...???

Japanese clubs like Gamba Osaka can certainly play stylish fast football at times, and I think their national squad need a big dose of confidence from somewhere if they are going to succeed in SA. I think the Koreans are a better bet, although I love watching Japan when they play well.

(* See next week's blog about the unpredictable Nigerians)

Edited by GazGoldCoast: 26/5/2010 01:43:07 PM

everyone look out for argentina....after their 5-0 drubbing of CANADA...they look the goods...lol

DaWoo
Interesting comments about the Koreans. In my contact with them I found them to be more direct and blunt, a bit like Aussies. The Japanese seemed more polite and concerned not to cause offence etc.

How much these sorts of characteristics are recent history, the military experience etc, and how much longer term is a different question.

The English are just across the Channel from France, yet these two have massively different cultures that would seem to go back centuries.

So, as you suggest, the more recent influence of Western effects might be a factor, but my guess is that there have probably also been long term national differences between Korea and Japan, just as there are big differences between lots of other adjacent countries.

Think Argentina/Brazil, US/Canada, Germany/Holland, England/Scotland, England/Ireland and locally, NZ/Australia.

But whatever. I think it is good that we will have good competition in Asia. If we are going to improve our football, we need good opposition. If Asia can improve, our top players will need less to fight to get into Europe, including passport hassles etc

“Do the elements which shape a nation's character also shape its football destiny?”

Gaz, that’s an interesting question and I would say there’s a great deal of truth in that.

I also believe that the religious philosophy of a nation has a lot to do with the success of the country’s performance in Football World Cups. The most successful footballing nations have been Italy and Brazil––both are very religious nations. Do they pray to God more than any other nation I would expect they do. Is that a coincidence or does God reward the religious nations more than the less religious?

If so then Spain surly will soon be the next to take out the World Cup. Or maybe it will be Greece’s turn. I think we can rule out the agnostic nations as they don’t have any real religious belief and so very little success in Football World Cups.

Something tells me that God has a real interest in the round ball game. That’s why I hope some day that Australian Football will one day become a religion in Australia. In any case, I’m praying hard that I will live long enough to see that day.

Good luck Gaz, I enjoy what you write and go the Socceroos.

Well what happens when the technical director of that nation is from a different nationality. For example, Australia's involvement with Dutch technical directors. I would argue now that Australia is moving forward we are adapting to a more dutch style of play so its not necessarily true. In saying this however, the elements of Australian culture such as strength against adversity, commitment to a team system etc will still be evident in some ways in our play.

Well, then, why don't the Muslim nations dominate football? They pray twice a day, you know, and their whole society is even more religious-focussed than Spain or Italy. Or what about the Rastafarians, the only people who truly know that JAH LIVES YEAH!!? Or what about... (ahhh, let's leave it there eh?)



Hmmn.

If God really loves football, how do you explain Kevin Muscat? :-k

And if football becomes a religion in Australian, will Robbie Fowler hold the Top Job? Or will Timmy Cahill become God? Josh Kennedy is often on his right side, you know...

Ah, and I thought I was skirting close to danger with national stereotypes...!

:shock: :shock: :shock:




Amen, bro! :lol:

That's bullshit, have you been to italy? Seen the churches and all that? It's a massive part of their society. It's just taht professional sport in muslim countries isn't seen as a "real job" and is kind of frowned upon, thus it doesn't develop as well.

Good blog, gaz. But as usual you're just playing with fire and sooner or later you're going to get an angry response.

We should start a campaign for that next national census.

I think absolutely stereotypes have an impact on things. Nations with reputations for physical football, for diving, for being argumentative, for technical prowess change how opponents take them on, how the referees view them, how their fans view them, how opposition fans view them.

Good point. I was thinking about it earlier today.

Look at the Greeks, for example. Otto Rehangel has come in and forced them to play a more organized, German style, and it's been reaping rewards.

The Dutch masters also pulled Korea's national team into line, and no doubt left a legacy that has penetrated through Korean football just like the Dutch influence in Australia is doing.

But in the end, we are Aussies playing a Dutch-influenced style. When push comes to shove, you are going to see that Aussie mongrel spirit surfacing. Just as the Koreans will always play a Korean style, however much it might be influenced by the Dutch.


So...

Does that mean that all footballing nations are ultimately heading towards some Holy Grail of footballing perfection, where all the best elements of all the various global playing styles come together?

Yeah, mate, I have been to Italy and South America and even lived in Madrid for a year. And I can tell you that nowadays a lot of that religious influence is pretty shallow. Same goes for places like Ireland and even Australia. Westerners might pay lip service to institutionalised religion but we are nowhere near as observant nowadays as many Muslim nations.

For better or worse. As I said earlier. Nuff said? :-#




Thanks but I'm not trying to trigger a response, Afro. OTOH I did spend a good long time thinking about this blog before I wrote it, and I wrote something that ultimately interests ME. If others enjoy it too, so much the better. Life's too short to be boring.




That's an interesting take: how others respond to your team, based on your (stereotyped?) nationality.

EG: opponents now expect Aussies to be very physical. I wonder if that influenced the referee who blew the whistle that awarded the penalty against the tackle that Lucas Neill made on that diving Italian bastard? :-k

Gaz
As per usual I am concerned with the logic of your argument once again in that cultural stereotyping can be applied to national sports styles and are concerned that your perspective is inherently rascist. It is a given that you won't reply to this response as history informs us you refuse to debate anyone who disagrees with your postmodernist view of the world. One glaring error appears to be your 'Blaneyist' assumption that in respect of the generalised Australian view of national sport there is an enduring spirit of all in "stick-it-to-'em" mateship. In respect to most of the posters on this website this is demonstrably an untrue stereotype whereby the Socceroos appear to be subject to a constant barrage of criticism and derision from so called supporters and armchair experts of the game who appear to be chafing at the bit to see the team fail in the WC. Why so Gazza? How do you explain this culturally? Is this not a clear contradiction of your stated Australian cultural stereotype of "stick-it-to-'em" mateship? I'd rather call it back stabbing apparently a national past time in respect of the lads now in South Africa.. not mateship!!

but in the days where these leagues were becoming established (eg 50's and 60's) church still played a a big role in day-to-day lives. It's more taht in somewhere like Iran, if you say you want to be a professional footballer you're told to 'get a real job' rather than encouraged to chase a dream. In italy or england or spain, even germany, you're encouraged to have a crack at it.

I do think that other teams take a 'soft' approach to their football and go to ground easier against us because we have a tendancy to get stuck in. Other teams like Italy and their reputation for diving sees their opponents take a less gung-ho approach, I think reputation has a massive impact on how sides line up. I'd not be playing a player like Mascherano or Grella against Italy in preference to a holding mid like Cambiasso or Valeri.

Interesting comments from former Japan coach Philippe Troussier after the loss to South Korea:


H/t Joffa.

Reinforces the suggestion that Japan are trying to play "pretty" football but instead slipping back into that "scared-to-take-risks" mentality. Time for a new coach, I think. Or else a radical new approach to the World Cup games.

You don't believe that African players play more athletic football? I'd say you're a bit naive then. Gaz's article has a lot of merit.

Let's put it this way:

WHOO HOO!! A positive response from Afro!!!

Where do I cash it in? :p

You're basically publishing what I've been saying for a long time, it's probably one of the few things I agree with you on :lol: And I told you that you'd get someone having a sook :lol:

Just remember it the next time you act like an arse-hat and I tell you so :lol:

As for the stories about Koreans and Japanese. I have lived in Japan for a very long time and am a little weary when passing judgement on the culture. Not that it is wrong usually my insights will find themselves contradicted by social diversities when interacting with Japanese people on a daily basis.
As for the football. I would say Japan's biggest problem is a serious lack of true international strikers. They look great everywhere else on the pitch but they just don't look like they can score. I think this could be slightly alleviated if they had a quality coach that could play to their strengths.
The Koreans on the other hand seem to be doing well. They may yet surprise us.