This young man was never involved in any of the pathways in Victoria and yet on debut shows a great level of skill and desire.
Leckie also was not identified in the pathways.
Tom Rogic is he another junior never selected in the pathways.

The obvious answer is that the pathways are producing some players and they are missing some players.
Does that mean the selection criteria are wrong or not effective enough?
Does it mean that juniors who dominate their Age groups then struggle to do the same are at senior level suffer from a mental performance issues or have stagnated in their technical decision making development?

I hope that the FFA does some research in this area, seeing where kids have played their junior football and how measure the success or otherwise of the pathways to identify talent.

My view is simply more investment should go to grassroots from 6 to 16yo to develop the general pool and the pathways should start at 16yo. Unfortunately the demands of the U13 and U16 National Squads have created a situation where the National Federation and State Affiliates see the need to develop pathways to feed into these teams. Maybe this is not to the correct way as selection becomes an end in itself rather than being part ofthe journey, like a Leckie, ogic or Nabbout.



Edited by Arthur: 13/11/2012 11:25:07 AM

Edited by Arthur: 13/11/2012 11:25:32 AM

I feel with the current system 95% of the effort is being focused on 1 % of the players when possibly 5 % are good enough to make it as a footballer. We should be spreading the net further and the best will eventually rise to the top. Just like what the big European clubs do, sign many teenagers with the hope that 1 or 2 will make it. Also every a league club needs to have from under 6 through to A League playing in the local competition. The best youngsters will come to you because it is a direct path into the A League team thus allowing to scout more effectively in their city.

Edited by Roar #1: 13/11/2012 12:49:12 PM

My feelings on this are well known. The pathways are for those pre ordained to be a part of them not necessarily the players with the most potential. The pathways do not have to be successful either, the reason being that their continued existence is enough to keep them receiving their funding.

The pathway selection is not based on skill or potential but on genetics the owns passed down through the correct parents with the correct connections.

And i am sure that in every corner of Australia there is a player that on the 8th day god did say that he must be selected for every elite team, no matter how bad he trials or plays.Because when he was 13 he was a champion.
This will never change.:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Your all pretty much on the money.

After the chairman, president, coaches, mates of coaches, fat sponsors, clubs management, ethnicity kids get selected first their might be a spot or two left for some talent. Maybe if they are lucky. So real talent doesn't get a look in while resources and opportunities are pissed up. This is why we end up with very average players being highly trained to finish up with highly trained average players. If you look at the majority of NYL players they are all related to someone in position somewhere and a lot of them are brothers or cousins.

The system is corrupt and the sport is a complete joke. Every Australian knows this no matter how much money they piss up on hype and bullshit promoting the game. Channels 7, 9, 10 etc won't touch the sport because they know all these truths.

I've had a first hand look into football from a top clubs inside workings and how players are selected and promoted to a-league and national teams. Talent has nothing to do with it. It's not what skills a players has or how good or bad they are. It's who they know and what involvement their parents have in the sport.

As for the money side FFA milk the shit out of the state associations like FNSW who milk the shit out of the many association clubs that charge local park players their rego fees for a service they get nothing back for. For every local park senior player FNSW milks around $100 per year from each. The average NSW local park senior player pays around $350 per year for a season of football which equates to around 18 ish games a year.

Football is a complete joke in this country and every australian knows it. I walked away from high level football some 30 years ago in disgust at what the game was. It's 30 years later and I am still disgusted that today nothing has changed except the faces that run the massive rort.

Football in this country is accountable to nobody. It is a law unto itself and runs itself how it pleases at the expense of the mums and dads who know no better. It is nothing more than it's own taxman with the money it collects being spent on one big party for the benefit of those who run the sport. Ah lifes good in the know.

The A-league is a joke. After 8 years they are still struggling to maintain a 10 team comp. Australia simply doesn't buy into the rort of the sport nor does it believe the bullshit. League, AFL, cricket, union, golf, netball, formula 1, MotoGP and even horse racing will always take precendence over football in this country.

Until things change only those stupid enough to pay for foxtel or the ethnic for ethnics channel SBS will ever have an interest in the sport.

Anyway it's summer. I have better things to do with my money like go to the beach or take my boat fishing n camping and enjoy the great outdoors.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 13/11/2012 07:59:25 PM

Today i had a person suggest (that a man i believe to be above all this) may himself be corrupt.
I could not believe my ears this cumming from a person who deals in gossip,and politics at every level and associates and cohorts freely with the worst pple in the sport. the loud mouthed fat committee and sponsors who kids get in every time.


Question?
When you hear pple bagging out pple you know and you know they are wrong. After telling the person to their face that the are wrong.
Do you tell the person they have slandered or not?

Edited by krones3: 13/11/2012 09:06:28 PM

krones3,

It is only slanderous if it is not factual or cannot be proven.

An opinion is not slanderous either. Opinions are challenged and changed by the provision of alter facts.

Spin doctoring is also an art of bending the facts. Political pundits know all too well this art.

You are best off providing the alter facts.

Aussierus many true points I have experienced myself for a long time in our beloved game.
As a potential prospective jnr myself I felt the barriers some 35yrs ago myself but the opposite that my parents deciding to claim their piece of land on the upper north shore we were the "wogs" in the heart land of anglos running the KDSA back in the 70's.
My teens I was in a club team winning 5yrs on the trot, 2yrs undefeated and Champions of Champions once with up to 9players chosen for Kuring-gai not once was I asked to try out for my father wasn't in the inner circle. Yet coachs from afar approached the ol man who we played in Tournaments/Finals....you could see it all but those times the ol man was focusing on earning a crust for the family and had no time to take his kid miles away for rep training then games in another district....
Alas I carried on loving the game and played AA1's to 35/1's now age creeping up 45's with mates in div2 having just won the comp but importantly the game has been indoctornated in my 2 boys coming and watching their ol bloke in turn they doing the same playing.

Now I'm going through the process of trials for my No2 12yr old the last 2yrs - its a bitch once again seeing the same old same old but worse for the modern day parent is happy to spend $$$$ far more than in the past, good on them I don't begrudge that BUT I see their Jnr is not that worthy on the pitch but the club or admin/selector is happy to take the cash no ?!
Last year he was good enough to make Div1 and the club (a current PL club) had enough players to enter 2 squads for yes it looks far better for the club doesn't it BUT being newbies to the club he was drafted into the 2nd team which tbh should have been entered in Div2 for only 3odd players were true Div1 material.
Therefore the boys got flogged every game - many times the other Div1 team played after us, I got to know a few of the Dads and they kept bitching saying my boy should be in the top squad watching him in the games but the coach had his agenda his kid and 2 others should have been dropped yaddayaddayadda you get the drift and that they can't stand the coach and club management. I'm sure this plays out everywhere as we all know. Naturally not being in the inner circle many of these average Div1 boys were drafted in the Development squads I was none the wiser nor was I asked if my boy would try out end of 2011/12.
I have 2 trials coming up for 2013 IF nothing happens and that I truely feel the kid doesn't deserve a place I'll just encourage him to be a good club man and enjoy his football as his ol bloke did for its not worth the hard ship.

So the question do academys/pathways work ? having tried the last couple of years and even though I haven't got a coaching ticket just as aussierus I see is "average players being highly trained to finish up with highly trained average players"
cuts it tuff, sure I have seen some amzingly gifted kids the last couple of years but most are not team players, they love having the latest and greatest gear on, fancy ronaldo haircuts step overs etc but the game is also putting their fellow players down and the coachs do nothing much about imo.
Its become more shallow than it was in my days go figure and were meant to be going forward afterall its the modern world ](*,)
Sorry to rant on just my observations.

By the way I am rapt for the Victory kid that Ange gave him a go - go figure how many academys/pathways coachs didn't give him the chance !

Edited by M.L.: 13/11/2012 10:28:30 PM

Edited by M.L.: 13/11/2012 10:35:54 PM

M.L.

Much of what you describe is common. I can relate to it all. Have seen it all. And the whole thing leaves me disgusted. I think a big problem is that clubs are fighting for survival and their survival is cash based. Who is going to tell the 50k or 100k sponsor his kid isn't good enough? Who is going tell the chairman, coach or president etc etc their kid isn't good enough? Cash from FFA should be filtered down not milked up.

My lad has been at an academy for 2 years (Australasian Soccer Academy) Trained and played with A-League, J-League, Olyroos, NYL players, EPL juniors, gave up a years playing to train with a top flight NSWPL club, won countless division 1 titles in row. Yet now at 18 almost 19 he cannot even obtain a place in a premier 2 U/20's side despite going to around 10 trials in the last 3-4 weeks. He worked his arse off for the last 3 years day and nights and when it came time for his reward had it ripped from him. He is at the point where he just shrugs his shoulders and says it's not my problem it's theirs. Top kid.

I have given so much of myself through coaching over the years and have seen many brilliant outstanding kids who would absolutely run rings around todays youth and the sad thing is I look them up today to see they have given up the sport because the system has let them down. Such a waste of brilliant talent. Todays youth are not even a shred of the talent that i've seen and had the pleasure of coaching in the past.

It's a sad fact there is the inner circle and there is the outer circle. Talent has nothing to do with any of it.

You are now where I was about 6-7 years ago. I wish I could say things have changed but they have not. Still I wish you the best of luck for your lad. My lad will now retire from football at the age of 18 and carry into his generation with his kids the same resentment of the sport for his next generation.

It is my personal experience watching my lad trial for the last 3 years that these open trials are a complete waste of your time. They already know prior who they will pick and why. I had hoped 30 years on from my days the sport had changed. It hasn't. Just new faces reproducing the same rubbish but nowdays the only thing that has changed is the way they market the bullshit. Spin doctoring for the gullible.

Here is a weird irony that I will share. The higher the level my lad trialed the closer he came to being signed, meaning he would reach the last 20-25 out of over 150 players. The lower the level he trialed with only IE: 25 players he was cut instantly. What does this tell you? I conclude if you are from outside the circle lad your must be good enough to carry the political duds and make them look good at higher levels. At lower levels they simply have no idea in any case which is why they are lower level. Lower levels are like a rotor lactor of idiots.

Don't ever let any dickhead tell you, you are just a parent who's kid failed. It is not the kid who fails or you as a parent. It is the system and the bunch of dickheads making it a one sided no win situation.

We all love the sport of football in it's purist form. Nothing better. It's the dickheads screwing it up for everyone else that seem to take pleasure in doing so simply because they can.

Kharma has a funny way of giving back to them what they deserve ;)

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:28:40 AM

Yep clubs are fighting for their survival - the recent changes as we know re the PL structure for next season has made things even harder at jnr level.
Up until this week many State League 1/2 clubs haven't even had any U12-15 trials I'm sure you know of this : "in discussion with other State League 1 & 2 Clubs about setting up a Development League for the U12-U15 Academy teams".
Its all pear shaped even more so.

You make perfect sense to me - water under the bridge I'm sure but I'm sorry for your boy - having the passion driven out of him is criminal !

What you say below is true to word watching myself from the sidelines :

It is my personal experience watching my lad trial for the last 3 years that these open trials are a complete waste of your time. They already know prior who they will pick and why. I had hoped 30 years on from my days the sport had changed. It hasn't. Just new faces reproducing the same rubbish but nowdays the only thing that has changed is the way they market the bullshit. Spin doctoring for the gullible.

I was OS on business early last week so my wife stepped in for me taking him to X trial I had him entered.
2hrs on he was culled with some others - he was ripped apart she said for all he was told "your out" nothing more nothing less, sure I don't expect cotton wool treatment but at 12 as you can imagine he was devastated and in tears like mad saying I never want to play football again, sure typical reactions of a kid with stars in his eyes but you would think in this do gooder world we are expected to live in selectors would have some words of encouragement or some skill by now how to break the bad news.
Thanks for your best wishs but I have no hope in the system just doing what my trouper desires and will put a stop to it after this coming season if nothing happens for I hate being around the BS people and my kid being exposed to BS !

The only future for a player with skill is overseas.All i can say is concentrate on football and make the break as soon as possible.

M.L.

What you describe is the power trip and the joy of the so called elite who probably has a daytime job as a toilet cleaner and the I.Q. of a potatoe telling your 12 year old he isn't good enough.

I look at it this way. It's not us who are not good enough. It's them not deserving enough and the system not in place good enough for us ;)

They can go live in wanker world as far as i'm concerned. I can finally walk away from the sport and do something I enjoy for a change. Enough bullshit for me. The sport here will fall on it's sword and be rehashed over over and again like a mcdonalds big mac. I simply don't care anymore for it.

It's a circus full of clowns with actors, performers, spin doctors and politicians fighting for your $$$.

Give them only what they deserve ;)

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:14:58 AM

I was talking to a coach involved with an A League club during the last week. There is a variation in states in accessing players according to him.


According to this coach, Queensland has a transparent structure where it is easy to access talent. Most of it goes through their state NTC. Relatively speaking, the clubs support the system.

The inverse operates in Victoria. There it seems some of the greatest opponents of the A league exist - known as 'Bitters' on the interweb. The perspective from this coach, is that many more clubs attempt to discourage young players from going through the FFA system. Hence, there are many good players that are more difficult to scout in Victoria.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:00:32 AM

See my previous post.

Scenarios may vary from state to state.

D, it is not just the pathways that are the issue - it is also the clubs that are meant to feed the pathway.

Another point Alistair Edwards made at our state FFA conference, was that it is FFA's unequivocal intention, to have A League clubs and Australian Premier League clubs take over elite pathway in coaching youth.

That it is FFA's intention to replicate what happens in most other countries - FFA will move away from coaching elite youth.

That is what Alistair Edwards suggests FFA intends to happen in the future.

With the Relative Age Effect, many more mature players- January, February, March birthdays- end up being selected in elite programs. The point is that many of these players may be more mature, but may not necessarily be better footballers than less mature kids in their age /year cohort.

Decentric,

I love your passion but seriously have you even bothered to read or understand my posts? Put what I say in your book of facts. Then go from there as the first rule of thumb. The facts I have posted will negate everything else you believe in. Mate i've been in the inner/outer circle for years. Trust me your views are irrelevant to the facts regardless of state/territory.

I mean this with respect. What month a player is born has fuck all to do with selections/pathway/system.

Here's the thing D, I heard all about the relative age effect in Brisbane in 2010, I went through the Birth dates of A-League players last year 60% were born from Jan to June of that group 60% were born Jan to Mar.

Edwards and the FFA keep talking about it but it doesn't appear to be happening on the ground.

While on the ground to many clubs coaches administrators parents state coaches NTC etc are focused on themselves like navel gazers as if making the state u14's or the Zone select is the destination. The coaches seem to encourage it as their reputations depend on it.

This is only part of the journey, the destination should be what Nabbout is close to achieving.

Edited by Arthur: 14/11/2012 12:30:53 AM

Ok here is some facts I will pass on.

CCM NYL side select their players based on higher age/years of experience. They do this for the purpose of winning the league.

SFC choose their NYL players based on younger players for the purpose of development. They don't care about winning the NYL.

AIS select really young players who get their arses handed to them on platter. The theory is they will learn and be better players in the future.

WSW have no friggen idea what they are about yet.

In a nutshell watch the NYL league. CCM will finish higher than SFC and AIS. SFC will finish higher than AIS. AIS will get their arses handed to them on platter and this is where our national youth teams are born from. A losing culture.

Don't believe me? watch the NYL tables and results this year. Like every other year.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:39:57 AM

I think this coach has got it wrong regarding Victoria, the kids a beating a path to the pathways.
In fact parents are investing large sums at Private Academies to help get them into the FFV Pathways.
The FFV pathways are seen as the best way to make it.

Playing in an FFV pathway such as VCL (junior zone) is seen as having value and worth. This junior is now assessed in club land as having more value than a player who has not.

Some unscrupulous coaches use the VCL program to recruit players or attract players to their academy programs.
While some of the coaching is just terrible and you wonder why they are even doing it.

The more elite levels of the player development programs like NTC, Skillaroos programs I have been against because they take the kids from the general playing pool and they have the kids playing against older opponents.

Edited by Arthur: 15/11/2012 08:54:41 AM

I can't comment on the political side of any of this stuff as I have absolutely no involvement and have never had any involvement in a behind the scenes form in the game in Australia. The only thing I can comment on is the results (or lack of) of the pathways. All my experience is in the UK and Scandinavia.

First and foremost; Yes, the pathways are producing players. There are some issues though.

a) I don't believe it has been long enough to judge the pathways system on the current crop of young players. The gap between the NSL and A-League and subsequent shake up put things off for a long time. Just looking at where ALL of the youngsters come from proves this - None are from A-League clubs originally, which leads to point b.

b) The pathways are enforced by 99% amateurs, not professionals, no matter how many "badges" they may hold. Let's keep in mind that no club has a real academy - Without creating a real academy, the only thing they can do now is to scout lower league players (doesn't that say something in itself, lower league?). Leads onto point c.

c) The pathways system will never completely succeed until every professional club has a fully functional academy and youth pathway system. It may seem kind of obvious, but when there is a team (coaches/management) whose sole job it is, is to increase on-field, off-field and financial success for the club in the long term, they will be more committed and will be held to stricter guidelines, expectations and the like. Every young player coming through now is essentially trained in "Sunday league school" up until the age of 16 where they may get a NYL contract - Which brings in the whole idea of politics as well.

From my experience overseas and from what I've seen and heard in Australia, there is a pretty decent difference between how and why players get selected. Youth football in Australia is more reminiscent of in the USA than in Europe - ie; middle class, white families with "soccer moms", and the selection policy and contractual policy of professional clubs (Youth sides) probably points to this.

In the UK and Sweden, none of this even comes into play. If a player is good enough, he's good enough - His parents don't pay for him to trial, why would they? Why would parents pay to get their child into a position where the club will pay him? That's ridiculous. Does anyone think that Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Messi ever paid a club just to be looked at? What about the entire Senagalese team? No? Oh, but in Australia, clubs have trial days where hundreds upon hundreds get looked at for 4 hours, while paying ludicrous amounts of money?

Another problem is distance. With professional clubs separated by so much distance, there comes great risk with who a club offers a contract to. In Europe, there are hundreds if not thousands of professional clubs within only 200km of each other. We have 10. One in another country and another 2000km away from the nearest club.

So, let's say you're in a position to hand NYL contracts out. Let's say you can offer 20 contracts, a brand new side. There are 30 kids vying to get them. All the kids are between 15 and 17, and just for arguments sake, let's say you're based with Perth Glory.

22 kids are from Perth.
17 of these are from stable families whose parents support their kids as much as they can and have been around the local Perth footballing scene their whole lives.
5 of these are from immigrant families with a single parent who works long hours and can't get her child to training and matches every week.

4 kids are from regional Western Australia and have driven and flown in to take parts in trials. Their parents can't make it because they are back home working and looking after the house/family/etc.

4 kids have come interstate from over 2000km away with their families, all to try and earn that first NYL contract. Their parents can't relocate.

So. Who would you guys be more likely to select for a contract? Maybe it's just me, but logistically, the answer is already obvious.

Arthur,

1. At U/12's the coaches have no idea what will be talent at U/18's, Their choices have nothing to do with talent.
2. The sides don't change much up to U/18's simply for political reasons, chairman, president, coach, power brokers, ex-socceroos kids.

Mate wake up and smell the roses. As much as I love yours and Decentrics passion the reality is far removed from the truth. Please do not bury this topic in systematic babble.

Then shut up and learn. I have first hand experience. Politics and $$$ is everything here. Talent comes a distant last.

The sport here is buried in political bullshit and hype and more bullshit. Until this changes the sport will be in no one cares land as far as mainstream australia is concerned.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:19:27 AM

Full of win.

Take it easy. I barely even live here.

how many AIS graduates go on to play a-league or socceroo level, compared to CCM? that's the real test, the finishing position in the NYL and a "losing culture" is a null point if the AIS has more.

Arthur, the FFA are well aware of the narrow scope and limitations of the AIS and state teams. It is merely a stopgap measure till clubs have suitable development systems in place (which is the intention of the APL).




Edited by dimi: 14/11/2012 02:37:08 AM

With respect, this is bullshit the only players tat are seen are those that are in the JPL's and they are in my experience the children of the most political parents ie committee members.
ie last year a roar coach came to townsville all the committee members kids got the chance to train with him when another kid of a younger age turned up they walked onto the field and attempted to stop him training luckily the roar coach told them where to go.
Also a player who was chosen by Nike Chance has never been given the opportunity to play at state level How do you explain that.
What about a very talented player who is dropped from the system because his parents object to paying $2500 for coaching and not receiving any goal keeper coaching.

100%
This s why you must leave Australia if you are talented.but if you make it you must also expose all the corruption in the system and name the people responsible.

I know talented player who is leaving Australia soon if he gets into a club overseas and does well he will never play for an Australian team again.


Edited by krones3: 14/11/2012 07:36:02 AM

Hi Krones and All

I have moved around the country quiet a bit and most likely would have more exposure to selections than most. The moves where work related not for my daughters soccer.
Pathways need to be there, plain and simple its the selction process which I have made many comments about.
In all my times, the Mackay RDO is the only person I have ever come across who picks directly from the best talent pool. Even being as honest as he is, this still doesnt work if the kids he picks parents dont have the money. This bloke is well hated by alot of people because of his honest approach, I loved talking with him because he told it as it was and explained the reasons needed if you where lacking in certain areas.
My current location in Newcastle is a joke. I got free tickets to all the W League games and great to see 6 goals per game, unfortunately for Newcastle the other teams are scoring them, they wont win a game all year.Why? Biased selections, poor coaching

The system is biased right up until the national U20's team. For example most of the young socceroo's squad had been through the AIS, if you look through the recent call ups, they will pick players who have been at the AIS and are now playing predominately NSWPL U20's, rather than guys who are playing VPL or national youth league.

Out of the 17 guys in the squad who have been based in Australia for the last 2 or 3 years only 3 of them have not gone through the AIS.