If you care about your ability to make an informed decision about your child's, or your future child's, secular education then you should sign this petition.

http://www.primaryethics.com.au/CampaignProcess.aspx?A=Link&VID=45622941&KID=224069&LID=1146733

Fucking religious nutjobs want ethics classes, as an alternative to scripture in NSW schools, hidden from the public's eyes.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mike-baird-denies-deal-with-fred-nile-over-proposed-ethics-class-changes-20150602-ghdt8z.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/premier-mike-bairds-friend-calls-proposed-ethics-changes-misleading-and-deceptive-20150604-ghgn9w.html

Lol... Most churches are AGAINST ethics classes because they will replace scripture.

As a someone raised in that sort of environment, I'm all for scripture/ethics classes. I agree that they should be a little better regulated than they are, but these things can have very positive impacts on schools.

Yay so we can have even more paedophiles telling us that homosexuality and gay marriage is evil and that the world is 6000 years old.

Excellent.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're an angry person.

Proper, secular, critical study of ethics would be a really valuable addition to the curriculum. Though it would really only be suitable at high school level. Critical thinking regarding ethical problems is fairly lacking in society, I think partially because most students will only encounter it at a tertiary level.

This scheme doesn't really sound like a proper study of ethics, however.

The difficult part is finding people who stimulate discussion and thought about ethical choices and concepts, without leading students in one direction or another.

Please don't be so dismissive. Its all here if you care to look. http://www.primaryethics.com.au/

It isn't university ethics by any stretch but the subjects are age appropriate and some studies show if critical thinking skills are not learnt early they may not be learnt at all.

It is a brilliant iniatative by a not for profit volunteers delivering an alternative to colouring in or sitting quietly if you opt your child out of SRE.

Prior to ethics classes being introduced children, by law, were not allowed to do homework or other reading of work material lest they get an advantage over children sitting in SRE.

This has been a long fight over a decade in the making and now these pricks are running scared and trying to hide it.


Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 9/6/2015 03:29:27 PM

This is true. The training that the volunteer teachers do heavily emphasises that the teacher should nudge the conversation along and not lead it. The teacher is, in effect, a facilitator only of the subject matter.

From this page: http://www.primaryethics.com.au/ourcurriculum.html

Evidence shows that well-reasoned moral judgement does not come automatically as young people mature and that these skills are best developed by engaging children in collaborative dialogue about a wide range of issues that matter to them. That’s how our Primary Ethics’ curriculum works. Once acquired, these skills accompany individuals into adulthood.

I don't blame him, it's honestly infuriating to see uneducated church volunteers come into a state school and literally tell students that the earth is a few thousand year old and that the 'scientists' are wrong.

You don't really believe that that happens though right? :lol:

This is Sydney, not Alabama.

The last time I watched a non-uni-educated person stand in front of a yr 6 class and tell them that the earth was only a few thousand years old was Wednesday last week.

It happens. Speak to any teacher.

It just doesn't happen mate :lol:
You're either lying, or choosing to hear things incorrectly.
I'd say that 99.99% of Christians are very, very, very okay with admitting that the earth is millions/billions of years old.

Ethics classes are a must! Currently my daughter gets to watch videos of peppa pig because it's illegal to teach her anything during the SRE sessions.

Fucking waste of time and SRE needs to be removed from public schools

Which school is that?

Far out. Did you laugh hysterically?

You can't do much except put your head down and try to catch up on work/planning.

The people who come out have a permanent victim complex (remember the gay-marriage thread from a week or two ago), do anything like try to correct them and they'd be onto the principal/EQ in an instant. It's not worth it.

Worst thing is when kids try to talk to you afterwards and you say you can't discuss it with them.

I'm not sure why EG thinks it's a joke either. The moderates are never the ones who go around evangelising, the people who have the time and effort to do this are always the ones that think they're saving souls.

100% correct. It happens more than you think.

Speak to a teacher that has SRE at their school.

I despise organized religion and wilfully ignorant people :lol:

That sort of thing does exist though. I'm still young enough to remember being in year 6 at school and being taught noah's flood as a fact.

Also just a few days ago there was an article about how religious leaders at schools have been giving young kids pamphlets about why homosexuality is evil.

In this day and age what's evil is ignorant old men telling people how to live their life.

Substitute young men for old men and you have most modern liberal "progressive" groups that influence correct groupthink at our universities...

Don't get me started on leftards :lol:

I started uni with them. I graduated. They're still at uni on their 4th major complaining about university being expensive :lol:

My religion and ethics classes in high school consisted of going to a small, airconditioned room where we all sat on nice cushions and our teacher would show us a slideshow of shit he'd done while travelling the world. The last time I looked at a bible in a classroom setting was in year 9. I think the overall message was "don't be a cunt, and go with a tour guide if you visit the Papuan mountains or else you might not come back ".

Edited by playmaker11: 10/6/2015 01:21:25 PM

ethics classes? Ethics classes?

How about some of our politicians (those who we follow, the ones that are meant to set an example) behave in a more exemplifying manner before we start talking about ethics classes

They're all christians. No surprises why they're such useless c*nts in that respect.

Thought it said 'ethnics' classes, was about to go full retard.

same . Can imagine fat pizza style classes hahah

:lol: Give it a rest mate.

As a catholic .. well you're right benelsmore :lol:

I'm really not sure where that's coming from... There was a HUGE evangelical lobby AGAINST ethics classes when they were first proposed.

Listening to the youth radio network current affairs shows, they held a story about 'respect for the opposite sex' in order to combat domestic violence

'The way to conduct' sounded like this->


This is going to end up well... :oops:

Ethics classes? I've just finished a 5 day Facebook argument with some c*nt who is convinced that our ethics are there at birth, placed there by a supreme intelligence without whom there could be no right or wrong.

For the record, I smashed the twat infront of all his online friends, sent him retreating into God-of-the-gaps territory on both the moral and cosmological arguments. Not totally relevant to this discussion, but I had to mention it somewhere.

Ultimately, if we want ethics, its somewhere between the world of Alex in A Clockwork Orange and Itchy and Scratchy's Porch Pals :-({|=

The real crime here is not religion vs non-religion. It is hiding the options to favor another.

As stupid as it sounds people who do not go to church or do anything related to religion still identify themselves with a religion.
My own wife does this. She will tell me she is not a religious person, but will put down catholic on forms ect... why? because her parents taught her.

The churches know this, so by removing ethics as an option and just nameing a religion they know they will cappture a big new batch of kids to train, and when the parent finds out they will probably not bother pulling the kids out in most cases as they identify with said religion.

It is all super underhanded.

:lol: Sorry i'll step back with my truth bombs.

It's called indoctrination and it's as horrific as fascism :)

Yes. Because thoughout history, Christians have truely proven themselves to be useless cnuts :lol:

Far out Christian bashers are cringeworthy.

Edited by eastern glory: 12/6/2015 03:12:03 PM

Edited by eastern glory: 12/6/2015 03:27:15 PM

Notwithstanding the fact that SRE (not comparative religious studies) should be nowhere near a secular public school they must be fairly worried if they're lobbying and running a campaign behind the scenes such as this to hide ethics away from parents.

If they're fair minded, and obviously they're not, then what exactly is the problem?

Do you find your wife does things that are "catholic" that you don't agree with (apart of course from writing down that she's Catholic on forms)?

In terms of being responsible leaders their track record is hopeless. They used to kill anyone who either made them look bad or challenged them. Given the poverty of the middle ages and the absolute luxury of the Vatican, I'm actually surprised people don't make a big deal. Then again trawling up the violent history of the church is flogging a dead horse. We know they were terrible people.

Christianity as a belief system hides behind God and a few pillars of their religion to justify hatred and exclusivity. It's actually hilarious. I don't have a problem with Christians themselves unless they're at my door trying to recruit me, but the church itself is one of the most damaging organizations in history.

What is cringeworthy is anyone who in this day and age is stupid enough to stand behind the church and its struggle to enforce its draconian beliefs on its followers and thus society as a whole.

If religious teachings in public schools were comparative i'd be ok with it. If religion must be broached as a subject, it must be neutral.

I never once had a Iman or a Kohanim/Rabbi come to my school.

And if they wanted to, or did, it'd be all over ACA and the Bolt Report with Alan Jones and Ray Hadley screaming from the rooftops.

It's only OK to indoctrinate kids with one set of fairy tales.

They had every opportunity to. The Sydney Scripture Union is just far more organised.

First paragraph I have no issue with, although they were non-evangelicals and Catholics.

Please don't try and say what the Christian belief system and is and what it does. You know nothing about it, as you continually prove.
The church has its flaws, but that because it's a mass of humans. Like fifa for example...

I'm not a Chrisitan, and I don't stand behind the church. I just don't put up with clowns attacking Christianity and the church when they know SFA about it, and are blinded by some irrational and ignorant hatred.

Well is it not true that christianity cherry picks what is and is not adhered to?

I can find a lot of non-human problems with the bible and the dogma of the church. I know adherents get all whiney when their faith is criticised but the big three have a lot to answer for.

I know plenty about it :) You just don't want to hear the criticism.

Quality thread lads

what would jesus do?

Walk on water while simultaneously turning it into wine and raising people from the dead.

Well, at least that's what I would do. The White Walkers would have nothing on me.

I agree with EG, I went to a Catholic secondary school and none of this shit was ever an issue.

It's only cherry picking if you don't understand it.

As did I.

This is nothing like a Study of Religion class you might've done in year eleven with a teacher who had been to uni, knew how to talk to/engage a classroom of children and was following an approved course outline.

It's about a primary school children being told to sit still at their desk while a volunteer with no formal training tells them the earth is thousands of years old, that the bible stories they tell are true because it says so in the bible, etc. There is no discussion or interaction except for a couple of token questions at the end, it's just a lecture.

I just don't understand why you or anyone else are willing to stick your heads in the sand over this. If more parents looked into what their kids were told in these sessions I guarantee that there'd be 80-90% opt-out rates.

I'm not sure why they don't believe you Karta. Bloody oath it happens. The evangelicals are at my kid's primary school but fortunately they run ethics classes so they're not exposed.

The lunatic's at my kids previous school were the happy clappy types and even worse.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-05/sparrow-scripture-lessons-by-stealth/6525006

Various comments on the article.
-----------------------------------//---------------------

I recently sat in on a lesson about addiction, given to students by a religious practitioner - apparently addicts are sinners, and only God can cure them - nothing about dopamine, social pressures, personal and medical issues, etc.

I have my reservations about school based religious instruction. Despite my ticking what I thought was the opt out box my son came home to tell me that the "old lady" had told him that creation was the truth and evolution was a lie made up by bad scientists who didn't know any better. I gave him what I thought was a balanced assessment and explained about Darwins theory and the Genesis story then stated why I believed in evolution. He returned the following week very upset to tell me that I was going to burn in Hell and no one could save me. So much for open discussion.

The religious education is not education though, it's instruction. It's not about the faith, it's how to be of the faith. And it absolutely isn't provided by a variety of religions. It is primarily preached by evangelist churches who see public schools as a mission field. It's all in the Access Ministry and Scripture Union handbooks.

http://www.news.com.au/national/parent-lobby-group-alleges-religious-education-material-taught-in-nsw-schools-includes-slut-shaming/story-fncynjr2-1227338650559

Excerpt:
-----------------------------------//-----------------------
She said there is “no way of knowing” how many students are being introduced to the material because religious education is not regulated.

“The Education Department does admit that they don’t keep an eye on this at all,” Ms Wood said.

The Department of Education is reviewing Special Religious Education classes.

“We feel it’s part of the problem. [size=6]Schools aren’t required to supervise classes or material (and) it’s allowed fundamentalists get a hold of the program.”[/size]

Fairfax media reports a sample lesson from provider Seed: SRE claims women make mistakes including “talking too much” and giving in sexually and men make mistakes including “letting their bodies rule and lacking courage”.

--------------------------------//-----------------------------------

An older story but relevant.

https://thatsmyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/what-really-happens-in-your-childs-scripture-class-and-beyond/

Other links:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/21/comment-we-dont-need-scripture-public-schools

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/primary-school-principals-shut-down-religious-education-classes-20140216-32ty8.html

St Kilda mother Mel Mackintosh only realised halfway through 2013 that her daughter received religious instruction for 18 months, after a similar error.

“My daughter has been told many times that God created her and the world and all that’s in it,” she said.

“This wasn’t taught as a Christian idea or belief, but as a fact.”

School prayer at public school.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/child-removed-from-nsw-public-school-after-prayer-vote-20140322-35a2j.html

Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 13/6/2015 10:18:12 PM

Whats the big deal about this?? My wife grew up in germany and went to public school and yet had r.e classes as a standard I school. I get some people are offended by religon and what they believe in as a encroachment in their lives but fuck sake you dont have to rant and rave like a madman

Did you not read the OP?

They are trying to hide an alternative to scripture. It is a big deal.

Fundamentalist christian volunteers should be no where near a public school.

The links provided are examples of the type of behaviour that some are saying doesn't go on. Clearly it does.

Religious (comparative) education is fine. Scripture at a secular public schools is not.

I don't think Fredsta was. Even EG was simply trying to point out that the most common christian denominations (e.g. the Anglicans and the Catholics) don't preach the genesis story as fact.

As one of those "catholics" that Glenn dislikes, I've enrolled my kids into catholic school but I don't think religious education has any place in public schools beyond a pretty high level study of theology.

Hell I went to a public school in my then area I lived in and I had a bloody a bikie for jesus come and speak to us. Religion isnt the problem its the nuffs nuffs who over preach that are the problem or the other problem is the few who just hate religoon and cant come up with a valid reason why they hate religion without coming out with the bog standard sayings

No. She really does nothing in any religious form in any aspect of her daily life. I find it quite strange, but therein lies the problem. She would tick catholic on a form for our 2 kids if that was the option given.

No you understand what you're told to understand. You are told by religious 'teachers' what is literal and what is not. The interpretations change to suit the times. I mean shit, why the hell can't I own a slave these days? The bible O.K's it.

Perhaps she has no ill will towards the catholic church and indeed likes to identify with that community of people?

It just doesn't seem like particularly strong "brain washing" is all.

What's the big deal about racism. I get some people are offended by being called apes but theres no reason for them to be upset about it................................... :shock:

Seriously, shocking post sir.

It's not so much an 'offense' in itself. I'm annoyed by the insistence that a pro-Christian set of theological ideas are taught to impressionable minds and that people seem to think that it's not a problem.



Edited by benelsmore: 16/6/2015 02:37:49 PM

I see. Carry On. Guess you know all about religion and religous people. I bid you fair well

Edited by mvfcarsenal16.8: 16/6/2015 03:09:24 PM

What nonsense.

I'm constantly shocked by attitudes towards religion where people just think it's some kind of accepted norm.

How so? Im religious and I havent ever spouted any shit that people say most religious people do. Why should religous people have to put up with cobstant attacks on their religous views and people expect us to say nothing. I have children amd they have been baptised but I donr really care if they dont become religious as I dont raise them to be. My wife is muslim but isnt religious neither are her parents. Like i said she grew up in germany and religious studies was taught in schools.

Well that's the problem. Religion is an "accepted norm".

Ethics classes, whilst not the panacea for religious indoctrination, is certainly a step in the right direction and now they want to hide your right to choose what your child can be taught.

If you're not religious why did you get the kids baptised?

If you're not religious you're a hypocrite, if you are religious then you've lied above.

Which is it?

---

3000 POSTS!!!

---

Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 16/6/2015 03:34:19 PM

Religious people don't put up with shit (unless you're a minority religion or a muslim). People's church and it's official teachings get criticized and they take it as some personal attack. Unfortunately, If you're associated with a religion/church/religious organization and that religion has an official stance of being for example against something like marriage equality, the religion is going to cop some flak. I do not understand why people take attacks on their church as attacks against them personally.

People seem to think that because they believe in something that it's invulnerable to criticism. If you're offended by criticism, don't make your beliefs public knowledge because to be honest, your religion and your personal beliefs are not important to anyone but you.

I agree.

I have no problem with personal beliefs. I do have a problem with institutionalised indoctrination. If my kid was taught religion whether it be Buddhism, Islam or Judiasm without me knowing I'd be livid.

Religion is a personal decision and should be taught personally. It should not involve a religious figure from a specific religion coming to a primary school and teaching naïve juveniles about what man says about God.

my church has been in the news for the last 20 plus years. I want the Catholic diocese here ti admit that they knew what was going on and say they knew george pell knew about the paedphil priests. I know a lot of catholics like myself who wish the church move forward and get in the 21st century . But our views get drowned out by oh all catholics are paedophile hiders.

The catholic church needs to own up and start over. Their credibility will on be further damaged by trying to hide obvious truths.

This is the bit I don't get. They join the "club" knowing full well what the rules are and then they try and change the rules.

I for one cannot give credibility to 'God's word' when the interpretations keep changing to suit the social evolution of man.

I agree sadly the people who are in charge are old and dont give a flying fuck about anyone but themselves. Reminds me if fifa to be honest. The young people want change. We want a church to say we knew about it and we did nothing as we were too stupid or immoral to do anything.

what rules would that be? ? The bloody bible is open to interpretation ffs. Some use it to hate some use it for good and some are so messed up they use it to kill (hello tim mcviegh)

Some things yes but others such as male priests only, an abhorrence to homosexuality and contraception have been pretty consistent throughout their history.

Other stuff like "limbo" and even "hell" to some extent are in a state of flux. Yes, no , maybe. They can't make up their minds.

Umm the Catholic rules that say abortion is bad.
The rule that says marriage is between a man and a woman.
The rule that says women can't be priests.
The rule that says priests must be celibate.
The rule that says you have to be baptised otherwise lights out for you laddy should you kark it.

Otherwise start your own religion that suits yourself. Just don't call yourself a Catholic.

Why should you as a supposed "Catholic" change church tenants that would alienate millions of other adherents who are happy with things just the way they are.

I have no problem with the church saying that gays can't marry in their church. That's their right and their rules.

I get annoyed when they say no gay people should get married anywhere outside of their church.


Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 16/6/2015 03:59:41 PM

And you think I belive any of them? Hell in the philippines we have lady boy priests and gay clergy.

Well evidently you're a "Catholic" in name only.

People identify with the church on many levels, it might be hard for someone that hasn't grown up in a Catholic family to understand but your local parish and the generous and caring people in that community can feel a million miles away from the doctrine of the papacy in Rome. Additionally, there's the school community as well that offer a good education at a decent price, charities and a bunch of other services.

I recognise this can seem hypocritical to someone that despises the church so I'm prepared for the criticisms of this but it's not black and white like you're trying to make out.

It's this 'church of convenience' which makes organized religion such a clusterf*ck these days.

thank you . Finally someone gets it.

People are getting way off track here. The problem is not that religion is an option. Many people welcome the option and want their children to participate in religious studies.

The problem is the religious bodies are putting pressure on the government to alter these applications to bias towards their option.

People dont intuitively know to write down an extra option if it is not displayed to them. If a menu says it has strawberry milkshakes, chocolate milkshakes and banana milkshakes only, it would be a very very slim margin of the public that would ask for a lime milkshake.

oh I agree but also hate those who despise religion for not particular reason. There are some who like yourself have valid reasons and there man rub who just hates everything like anti feminists and relgious folk who dont fit his stereotype

That's what makes it so despicable.

However it's Christianity which is the social norm so we're just a bunch of anarchists if we kick up a stink right?

It's more a cultural thing rather than a "church of convenience". You might reject it and there are certainly catholics that have but for the vast majority (and I suspect Glenn's wife may be like this) don't see any real harm in how they were brought up and may think it's helped them in some way. Even if they don't believe in God any more.

In that respect I think it's each to their own as long as it doesn't affect others.

Yep which is why I agree with the original post of the thread :lol:

I'm afraid you're talking out of your hat.

I did grow up in a Catholic family. (And the extended family too). It says Catholic on my birth certificate, I've been baptised, done the confession bit and the Confirmation part. I was, until I renounced my religion, a full bottle 100% Catholic that prayed at night and went to church on Sundays.

Why I get annoyed at your "choose your own adventure types" like MV-ARSE is because they cheapen the religion for people like my mum who are still very devout and are very committed to the churches doctrine and dogma. For her sake I would hate to see the Catholic church change their stance on most of the issues brought up here because it devalues her beliefs and understanding of the church she knows.

And BTW It is hypocritical because they want all of the benefits that you mentioned above without any of the commitment. "I don't go to church because I worship God in my own way" or some other garbage is a line you hear trotted out constantly.

Weak as piss is what that is.

By way of a very clumsy analogy it's like me joining the yacht club and then complaining that they never put on ocean kayak racing. What about us poor ocean kayakers waah waah.

MV says he's not religious yet he's had his children baptised. (All the benefits without the commitment.) Hypocrisy of the highest order.






Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 16/6/2015 08:56:21 PM

I'll have to respectfully disagree Glenn. The problem IS that religion is an option.

In a secular public school it should not even be offered as a subject. (And it's not even a subject. It's an opportunity to proselytise to young impressionable minds.) Western Australia and I think the ACT and South Australia have phased out these classes. It's time for NSW, Vic and QLD to get on board.

Want to teach your child about the bible and God well there are 2 places they could start straight off the bat. Church and Sunday school.

By the way your milkshake analogy is spot on.


Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 16/6/2015 10:27:06 PM