Oakliegh played a quite weakend side with very few seniors players and were unlucky not to draw
Boxhill played a weakned reserve squad agianst what seemed to be ss first 11

The seniors group stage kicked off yesterday. Didn't see much of it as I got there a lot earlier to watch some under 21s and veterans matches and left after getting annoyed by sunburn and the apparent thrashing that Brunswick were going to get.

Heidelberg 3 Brunswick City 2
I watched most of the first half of this game, Bergers were 3-0 up against a City side that attacked well but defended poorly.

Northcote 0 Western Suburbs 0

Oakleigh 1 Port Melbourne 2

South Springvale 5 Box Hill 0

Excellently expressed Blackmissionary. I've tried to say similar things in the past about second tier sport not being of interest to Aussies, but I've lacked your more detailed knowledge and examples.

What I am arguing is that we are heading towards a participation based model at all levels below a top tier. People of all backgrounds are - with a couple of notable exceptions such as perhaps the WAFL and SANFL - no longer interested in second tier sport as a spectator sport. People especially in metropolitan areas have innumerable options as to what to do with their limited leisure time, and they're not keen on wasting it watching on a lower level of competition.

This is why we have booming numbers in junior, women's, futsal, veterans, thirds etc soccer competitions. Soccer is an accessible game for several demographics unlike several rival sports (though the cost of participation is an issue). But as soon these people's participation is over (whether that is as players themselves or as parents of players) they leave the game at that level entirely. While this isn't a new phenomenon, there were at least sponsors and fanbases there in the past to disguise this fact. It has been apparently of a particular concern historically in the women's game, according to Vic women's soccer stalwart Betty Hoare, who I interviewed about two or three years ago. I hope that changes, or that it is changing.

I could even take you back to the 1940s to show you how increased leisure options create problems for sporting clubs. In the 1940s, Williamstown had a great team in the VFA, and decent crowds and membership numbers... as soon as petrol rationing ended however in 1949, despite the continued competitiveness of the team, membership and crowds fell. All of a sudden people weren't limited to what was right in front of them.

I can go to wog and mainstream clubs across the Melbourne metro area during the season, and for the most part I see the same thing - crowds made up of men 40 years and over, and me at 28 being basically the youngest person in attendance outside the reserves players and a few very young children... and you see the same thing in the VPL, where most reserves players and their parents leave as soon as they can. The model before the ethnic led boom in Victoria was also a participation based model, albeit with a far lower, perhaps even stagnant level of participation (and yet, strangely, often excellent crowds for matches by touring sides). Have a read of John Kallinikios' 'Soccer Boom', very accessible history of the transformation of the game during the 1950s especially.

nah you weren't stating the that the wog clubs are the biggest, rather you were using the examples to suggest that there is not any support for the game more broadly i.e. certain backgrounds don't support it. The reality is the game has not engaged other backgrounds because of its mono-ethnic structure and there is not a diversity problem at other levels of the game.

Policy should encourage diversity to improve the games reach and my point was/is that a mono-ethnic cup however small won't help achieve a greater local connection.

Just curious to know whether all the team will be playing mainly there U21's in the group stages?

South Spingvale and Malvern qualify from South East group. In group A big spending South Springvale will play Boxhill united with Port Melbourne and Oakliegh going head to head. Kinston City to play Malvern with heavywieghts South and Bentliegh playing.
Games played at Kingston next weekend.

I'm not saying certain ethnic backgrounds are allergic to the game - please quote the specific part where I said that. All I've said is that when it comes to senior football at a state league level, it's the wog clubs who overwhelmingly put money into that part of the game. 'Mainstream' clubs even with a history of strong junior numbers have not succeeded in this environment yet. You claim that I'm grasping - I reckon I'm providing evidence based upon my travels, discussions and interviews done with people from Morwell, Mildura, Hobart etc

Sorry about the late replies was on holidays and only had mobile to read [takes too long to reply using it].

Not sure what you're trying to say here, firstly i didn’t suggest a name change, identity is much more than a name, but suggesting nothing can be done to grow the sport is obviously wrong the a-league being a simple example of that. The game should *always* try to grow, not give up.


None of this was brought up by me, you suggested and replied to it yourself i.e. it’s not related to the initial point which was why doesn’t playing in a mono-ethnic club strengthen local bonds, it’s just a lame attempt at deflecting. Sad you need to resort to that.


It’s probably lost on you, but i was actually emphasising the need for more diversity rather than excluding any one group.



You seem to be wanting to grasp onto anything that is an excuse for current situation, as if certain backgrounds are allergic to supporting the game, which is just not true.

That when the ‘diverse’ kids get old enough to make decisions for themselves and don’t go on to support a ‘diverse’ club it means a low support base for the game. Having events which only emphasises the mono-ethnic nature of clubs rather than embracing the local community doesn’t serve to increase that diversity. There’s no other way around that point.

South Springvale have recruited well and have bascially already qualified, Malvern LOSE to Mannigham LOL funnist thing ever, were understrengh but still a decent under 13's side could beat those guys.

AH so it is East Richmond, Malvern were playing a very understrenght team but in saying that they were still very ordinary.

If ethnicity is a such a hindrance, why do so many people send their kids to play at ethnic clubs? If removing ethnicity is some sort of cure-all, why has Mildura senior football regressed to the status of a mere participation sport, rather than a spectator oriented sport as it used to be to an extent? In their own words, they've got rid of almost all ethnic ties, and yet spectator numbers have disappeared almost entirely during that period.

Beaumaris 3 Darebin 0 by the way.

And fark off those Irish fellas from AFL games, we're bloody full!

If you think changing a club's name or removing 'ethnic' clubs from competitions is going to make football any more 'Aussie' and less of a niche sport, I personally think you're very much mistaken.

Surely 'non-ethnic' - or should that be Anglo? - clubs should far outnumber and outshine ethnic clubs at a local level if that was the case.

...or maybe we should stop importing players from other countries to the A-League, in which case all we'd have would be Aussies and we wouldn't be a foreign, niche-occupying sport at all... right?

As i think i've already said the 'no interest in second tier' line of argument would hold if there was diversity present. The lack of diversity is not because certain backgrounds are allergic to supporting the 2nd tier it's because they have not been properly engaged. A mono-ethnic cup doesn’t seem to encourage their engagement, however small it may be.

I did a topic on mechanisms which other sports use to increase local community connections and a-league interest [top down interest], but it quickly degenerated.



My opinion is that policy at all levels of the game should be aimed at growing the game. Whilst the numbers who are aware of it are small, most likely limited to those at the club and within the football communty, it's those exact same numbers which need to grow for the flow effect to increase support for the remainder of the game.

If we continue being regarded as an ethnic game, the game will continue to remain a very niche sport in Australia. Not popular with the likes of yourself but it’s the truth.

Prelim games started yesterday... Westvale 1 Beaumaris 0, South Springvale 1 (Old) Camberwell 0, Malvern 1 East Richmond 0

http://footballchaos.com/index.php/videos/ffv/2012-season/333-hc-malvern-city-v-east-richmond

Do they have to? Does an Italian club playing another Italian club a few times in a small compeition destroy football in this country?


Fuck me, most people outside of these clubs probably don't even know these compeitions exist!

How do you do that, Kapow? With the odd exception, second tier means second rate to most people regardless of the sport.

Probably, but it's about doing everything to increase that interest imo.

Dave - Because the local community is not all made up of one background. The two don't compliment each other at this stage.

I think once again Kapow, you overestimate the interest in senior football at a 2nd tier level. I also think you overestimate the public's knowledge of the existence of this tournament, which probably has the same amount of publicity to other pre-season tournaments, including non-ethnic ones like the Casey Cup and the Geelong regional tournament.

I can't wait until the tournament starts so we can actually talk about on field matters.

So uh, why can't they do both? Strengthen local bonds whilst playing in friendly comps with other clubs who share a similar heritage?

Now attempting to point the finger of blame at the 'ethnic' clubs for the poor comparative performance and support of the 'non ethnic' clubs? The bow just snapped.

"Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out." - Sydney Smith

There may be areas or examples of single clubs being poorly run, my point is it is difficult to subscribe to the view that *all* of those clubs are poorly run, it is much more likely the game has an image issue and is not doing a good enough job of engaging.

Which is why all policy should encourage clubs to strengthen their local bond and makeup to change the perception of the game. I don’t see a mono-ethnic cup helping that regardless of how low profile it is. That's my opinion on it.

Edited by kapow!: 19/1/2012 07:16:19 PM

There are areas of Melbourne where these mainstream clubs are in the majority - the outer eastern suburbs and the Mornington Peninsula. And areas along the coast - clubs such as Brighton and Sandringham - who have large junior bases. Most of these clubs have been around since the 1960s/70s, and in Brighton's case the 1920s. Brighton's senior team had such a lack of interest despite its large junior base that its senior team folded in the 1990s while the juniors kept going, and it was only within the last five years that they had a senior team.

........

And in Croquet the tea n scones over the latest gossip is much superior than football.

..........

The ethnic clubs send heavies around the other grounds on game days to perform egg throwing to intimidate the non ethnic fans and discourage the support of their clubs.

..........

All the ethnics are attending silly football games on weekends and therefore not working so the non ethnics, being the ideal, upstanding citizen, are forced to work to keep the country going and cannot attend football games and support their club.

..........

Once upon a time, .............

..............

And at the moment i can't think of any other arguments to allow further clutching at straws.

.............

Give me time to think of something silly and I'll get back to you.

Edited by skeptic: 18/1/2012 06:51:23 PM

It's possible that all mainstream clubs are poorly run as you've suggested with your example or more likely that the mainstream clubs are too few in certain areas and the game overall still has not managed to shed the tag that it is not welcoming to all.

One point i've mentioned previously is the social side of aussie rules is much greater than football, i've played both and in aussie rules many of them only turn up to socialise.

Whatever the reason it's wrong to suggest that the mainstream doesn't support second tier sport or that we cannot get all backgrounds interested in the game, we just have to find a better way to engage them, not holding a mono-ethnic cup would be a good start imo.



Tacky to suggest i'd have a problem with those. The reason it was suggested as problem is because it part of the game’s image problem now = less growth. If in X years the game has diversity and is perceived as such, then hold as many traditional cups as you please, until then it's shooting the game in the foot.



No one mentioned mass market success, we were talking about achieving diversity. That creates a bigger base which gives the correct structure to grow and hopefully one day achieve mass market success. Mono-ethnic clubs were unable to diversify, which makes your red herring comment a little silly.

Additionally all the mainstream clubs achieved diversity before the national team success and both in the nsl and the a-league, but it's not the first time you've tried that angle is it?


You have a point and yes unlike some you have a more balance view, but it is really unfortunate that the game likes to shoot itself in the foot. The a-league's and hence the game’s growth will always be limited without a strong adult base to support it.

Needs a better punchline Dave. :lol:

I'm not sure. That's an intensely personal question.

Legitimate question. Do you think any of your above list is the actual or primary motive for the most insistent participants of the anti ethnic football lobby?

Yes. Because certain people on both sides of the stupid 'NSL v A-League' or 'broadbased v ethnic' or 'past v present' are completely fucking stupid.