Just so you don't think I'm bullshitting Kapow!

First the Australian Chinese Soccer Association link

http://www.acsasoccer.com/

And the Melbourne Chinese Soccer Association

http://www.mcsa-web.com.au/

Don't feed the racist, fellas, he thrives on the attention. Just flush it down the toilet with the rest of the faeces.


Remove British from the above list and add all other non British and you have it.

Edited by FortressBelmore: 14/1/2012 02:20:39 PM

He's quoting someone else, you numpty.

This. 100%.

'Mono-ethnicity' is a red herring and can only be used for so long.

Like the community label, calling the cup historical does not address the issue. Mono-ethnicity of anything cup/club/competition structure means less diversity, which means less growth for the game. We are stuck with the clubs we have, but all policy should be about having as much inclusion as possible and driving a strong local connection so the games makeup changes from mono-ethnicity to diverse and then the perception of the game socially will change with that.


Because the mainstream have not been engaged/connected. The mainstream are capable of being engaged in football as shown with the a-league and in the second tier in other sports, just not in football, why would that be?

And remember the great numbers you're talking about mono-ethnic clubs are minuscule and they've had decades to grow that with social club support.


I didn't think you were bullshitting, i didn't care because it was not relevant to the discussion, you were being a smartarse.



If you had any understanding of Australian society you'd realise what a silly statement that is and evidence wise if it was a red herring, clubs such as yours would have appealed to other backgrounds and diversified over the decades, but you haven't.

Kapow, the mainstream clubs have had a minimum of 20 years of strong junior numbers to set them up towards becoming senior powerhouses, and it hasn't happened. If the ethnic clubs are naturally non-inclusive, why can't the mainstream clubs engage their communities? What's holding them back?

I had one former state powerbroker tell me recently that apparently parents and kids at these mainstream clubs didn't even know their clubs had senior football - even though nearly every state league club plays football at 3pm on Saturday afternoons.

I'm not saying that the ethnic clubs in the state leagues have great numbers - just better numbers, on field and off it when it comes to funding senior football.

Mate, these are annual tournaments that last for a weekend. They're long held traditions which are no different to an Oktoberfest celebration or Chinese fucking New Year. I bet you've got a problem with those events as well

'Mainstream' clubs have also failed to appeal to mass markets. The best anyone has done has coincided with the arrival of a 'successful' national team and a well administered league - even then, numerous mainstream clubs have failed dismally to create any real interest. We can't blame ethnicity on the failure of Gold Coast, North Queensland Fury, or Auckland Knights, for example - all have failed due to poor admin.

Wow... just wow. Does every thread always have to degenerate into this same stupid argument.

Victoria's Hellenic Cup is a month long affair, now with senior, vets, under 21s and womens comps, plus the junior Hellenic Cup played at the end of the normal season.



Yes.

Yes. Because certain people on both sides of the stupid 'NSL v A-League' or 'broadbased v ethnic' or 'past v present' are completely fucking stupid.

Legitimate question. Do you think any of your above list is the actual or primary motive for the most insistent participants of the anti ethnic football lobby?

I'm not sure. That's an intensely personal question.

Needs a better punchline Dave. :lol:

It's possible that all mainstream clubs are poorly run as you've suggested with your example or more likely that the mainstream clubs are too few in certain areas and the game overall still has not managed to shed the tag that it is not welcoming to all.

One point i've mentioned previously is the social side of aussie rules is much greater than football, i've played both and in aussie rules many of them only turn up to socialise.

Whatever the reason it's wrong to suggest that the mainstream doesn't support second tier sport or that we cannot get all backgrounds interested in the game, we just have to find a better way to engage them, not holding a mono-ethnic cup would be a good start imo.



Tacky to suggest i'd have a problem with those. The reason it was suggested as problem is because it part of the game’s image problem now = less growth. If in X years the game has diversity and is perceived as such, then hold as many traditional cups as you please, until then it's shooting the game in the foot.



No one mentioned mass market success, we were talking about achieving diversity. That creates a bigger base which gives the correct structure to grow and hopefully one day achieve mass market success. Mono-ethnic clubs were unable to diversify, which makes your red herring comment a little silly.

Additionally all the mainstream clubs achieved diversity before the national team success and both in the nsl and the a-league, but it's not the first time you've tried that angle is it?


You have a point and yes unlike some you have a more balance view, but it is really unfortunate that the game likes to shoot itself in the foot. The a-league's and hence the game’s growth will always be limited without a strong adult base to support it.

........

And in Croquet the tea n scones over the latest gossip is much superior than football.

..........

The ethnic clubs send heavies around the other grounds on game days to perform egg throwing to intimidate the non ethnic fans and discourage the support of their clubs.

..........

All the ethnics are attending silly football games on weekends and therefore not working so the non ethnics, being the ideal, upstanding citizen, are forced to work to keep the country going and cannot attend football games and support their club.

..........

Once upon a time, .............

..............

And at the moment i can't think of any other arguments to allow further clutching at straws.

.............

Give me time to think of something silly and I'll get back to you.

Edited by skeptic: 18/1/2012 06:51:23 PM

There are areas of Melbourne where these mainstream clubs are in the majority - the outer eastern suburbs and the Mornington Peninsula. And areas along the coast - clubs such as Brighton and Sandringham - who have large junior bases. Most of these clubs have been around since the 1960s/70s, and in Brighton's case the 1920s. Brighton's senior team had such a lack of interest despite its large junior base that its senior team folded in the 1990s while the juniors kept going, and it was only within the last five years that they had a senior team.

There may be areas or examples of single clubs being poorly run, my point is it is difficult to subscribe to the view that *all* of those clubs are poorly run, it is much more likely the game has an image issue and is not doing a good enough job of engaging.

Which is why all policy should encourage clubs to strengthen their local bond and makeup to change the perception of the game. I don’t see a mono-ethnic cup helping that regardless of how low profile it is. That's my opinion on it.

Edited by kapow!: 19/1/2012 07:16:19 PM

Now attempting to point the finger of blame at the 'ethnic' clubs for the poor comparative performance and support of the 'non ethnic' clubs? The bow just snapped.

"Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out." - Sydney Smith

So uh, why can't they do both? Strengthen local bonds whilst playing in friendly comps with other clubs who share a similar heritage?

I think once again Kapow, you overestimate the interest in senior football at a 2nd tier level. I also think you overestimate the public's knowledge of the existence of this tournament, which probably has the same amount of publicity to other pre-season tournaments, including non-ethnic ones like the Casey Cup and the Geelong regional tournament.

I can't wait until the tournament starts so we can actually talk about on field matters.

Probably, but it's about doing everything to increase that interest imo.

Dave - Because the local community is not all made up of one background. The two don't compliment each other at this stage.

How do you do that, Kapow? With the odd exception, second tier means second rate to most people regardless of the sport.

Do they have to? Does an Italian club playing another Italian club a few times in a small compeition destroy football in this country?


Fuck me, most people outside of these clubs probably don't even know these compeitions exist!

Prelim games started yesterday... Westvale 1 Beaumaris 0, South Springvale 1 (Old) Camberwell 0, Malvern 1 East Richmond 0

http://footballchaos.com/index.php/videos/ffv/2012-season/333-hc-malvern-city-v-east-richmond

As i think i've already said the 'no interest in second tier' line of argument would hold if there was diversity present. The lack of diversity is not because certain backgrounds are allergic to supporting the 2nd tier it's because they have not been properly engaged. A mono-ethnic cup doesn’t seem to encourage their engagement, however small it may be.

I did a topic on mechanisms which other sports use to increase local community connections and a-league interest [top down interest], but it quickly degenerated.



My opinion is that policy at all levels of the game should be aimed at growing the game. Whilst the numbers who are aware of it are small, most likely limited to those at the club and within the football communty, it's those exact same numbers which need to grow for the flow effect to increase support for the remainder of the game.

If we continue being regarded as an ethnic game, the game will continue to remain a very niche sport in Australia. Not popular with the likes of yourself but it’s the truth.

If you think changing a club's name or removing 'ethnic' clubs from competitions is going to make football any more 'Aussie' and less of a niche sport, I personally think you're very much mistaken.

Surely 'non-ethnic' - or should that be Anglo? - clubs should far outnumber and outshine ethnic clubs at a local level if that was the case.

...or maybe we should stop importing players from other countries to the A-League, in which case all we'd have would be Aussies and we wouldn't be a foreign, niche-occupying sport at all... right?

And fark off those Irish fellas from AFL games, we're bloody full!

If ethnicity is a such a hindrance, why do so many people send their kids to play at ethnic clubs? If removing ethnicity is some sort of cure-all, why has Mildura senior football regressed to the status of a mere participation sport, rather than a spectator oriented sport as it used to be to an extent? In their own words, they've got rid of almost all ethnic ties, and yet spectator numbers have disappeared almost entirely during that period.

Beaumaris 3 Darebin 0 by the way.