Would Cahill have made 'it' if he came through the current system?

Arguably one of our best players ever does not exactly fit the mould of the the new dutch system. He is not exactly technically astute nor is he a flair driven or creative type of player. He relies upon his off the ball skills , brilliant leap and ability to be in the right place at the right time.

This is one of the problems I see with the current system is that players like Cahill who is recognized on a world stage and at one point was easily this nations best player wouldn't exactly get a gig in Bergers set up.

I am not sure but he did not make it through the old system.

probably wouldnt get on a skills acquisition program , as box to box players are a dirty word now.

Nope, Cahill never played football until he left for Millwall.

More than likely Cahill if he stayed in Australia probably would not have made it to A-League through the system nor would Kewell. The system here is not designed to recognise players with gifted unrobotic talents. Even the Australian coaches don't pick players for national duty unless they play in an overseas comp which reflects just what our national coaches think of our current system and this won't change for the next 10-50 years. A-League today is full of "the systems" players and is seen as a 3rd world comp by world football standards. You must also remember The State leagues feed the A-League and while some state league clubs are about recognising and promoting real talent a huge proportion of them have different agendas to promoting better players. Hence why we get so many dud players fed into in A-League today.

The whole system here makes a mockery of itself. It produces players the national coach can't and won't use unless they have been trained and play overseas. So they think it's crap.

Being in the right place at the right time and off the ball skills is the skill of reading the game and being familiar with what your team mates are going to do then react accordingly. His leap is timed due to reading the play also.

All our current system is doing is producing little robots that don't think, just do. Bloody terrible and this is starting to show now with our recent failures in world youth cups at every age.

The reason for this is simple.

The current (fad) system was devised, and now operated, by low quality z grade foreign hacks. You see, as a sockah backwater, that's all we can attract i.e. foreign rubbish.

No quality to be found anywhere in this lamentable era.

If Harry and Tim had never of gone overseas then, Harry would have ended up a useful left back and Tim a useful right back.

The reason is that in the last 35 years I can count on one hand the number of technically gifted players that have come through the local scene in NSW. NSW has a reputation of promoting and playing the big, strong, athletic and SAFE players in the NSL and the A-League. The technically gifted players have been treated like wimps or soft or lacking something, witness Carle.

In Victoria and South Austalia we have always promoted the technically gifted players.

So there.

Love how some people conclude that a player cannot be athletically capable (speed, strength, endurance) and also technically gifted.

It's one or the other, right? :lol:

Edited by judy free: 16/1/2012 02:59:38 PM

Can't judge that until 5-10 years have passed. Not necessarily defending the current era but Timmy, Dukes, Schwarz, Bresc, etc didn't appear overnight either.

Dave,

Why do we have to wait until 5-10 years?

If the same system and training/playing methods are being applied to our u/17's, 20's, 23's national sides then we should be seeing improvements instead of them failing to get out of group stages. It's worth noting that the ladies failed to qualify for the London Olympics under the same training and playing methods. Even our senior mens side has dropped 2 places in the FIFA rankings compliments of losing to lowly ranked Oman. Yes indeed good times ahead....NOT

Berger won't be around in 5-10 years and simply won't care. He'll be a few mill richer and sucking back latte's and eating weed cake in his own country having a good chuckle.

The golden era of Timmy, Dukes, Schwarz, Kewell, Bresc etc also did not play or train under the dutch system being applied to us today. They played and trained under the EPL, Italian system which Berger rates as rubbish.

Wish I could say the future looks bright but that would require dreaming and ignoring reality. Maybe I need some of those dutch cafe cakes and everything will be honky dory...

I was looking for a different article but came up with this one which is kind of relevant to the discussions above. From what I understand when Lee got hold of Harry at the age of 12 he had a cracking left foot but that was about all. Also I believe Cahill didn't make any rep sides and he developed outside the system anyway.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/27/1064083249577.html

Kewell in row over coaching

By Danny Weidler
September 28, 2003
The Sun-Herald

Australia's greatest soccer player, Harry Kewell, is considering taking Soccer NSW to court for falsely linking him to a method being used to coach thousands of kids in Australia each year.

Kewell and his manager, Bernie Mandic, are furious that Kewell has been linked to the Coerver coaching program pushed by Soccer NSW.

The program is the brainchild of former Dutch national coach Wiel Coerver and involves repetitive training techniques. It is taught to young children and teenagers around Australia, with about 1700 kids participating in a recent program. The cost of a complete program can be as high as $2500.

Kewell's name appeared on a website advertising the coaching method, with a headline asking, "Ever wonder what put the jewel in Harry Kewell?"

Mandic has been successful in removing Kewell's name from the website, but it can still be accessed by using a search engine.

The Sun-Herald contacted Soccer NSW to inquire about the coaching method and specifically whether Kewell had been through the program and endorsed it. We were told there was some confusion but he did have some link with it.

Mandic maintains that thousands of children are being duped into believing this was the system that produced Harry Kewell.

The matter has flared because of claims that a rival coach took credit for discovering Kewell and being responsible for his development.

The person who discovered Kewell was David Lee, who spotted him in the NSW primary schools team. Lee oversaw Kewell's development while at Soccer NSW.

Lee is adamant that Kewell had no contact with the coaching program NSW is pushing. "Harry wasn't touched by that coaching program at all," he said. "It's a silly idea anyway. It's just simple skills being taught and then someone putting their name on it.

"It would be like John McEnroe hitting a drop shot and then trying to claim that that shot should be called a John McEnroe.

"I was there and I plucked Harry out of the NSW primary school team and I know exactly what programs he went through and what he didn't and he had nothing to do with this one."

Kewell himself is angry about the affair and told The Sun-Herald: "I learnt the most by playing in the backyard or at the local park with my brother Rod and my mates.

"Hitting a ball up against a wall for hours on end with different parts of my foot, juggling a soft drink can up against the backyard fence, that is what it's all about.

"When I was told that the moves I do were Coerver I just laughed. The things I learnt while at the NSW Academy were things that players like Pele and George Best were doing for years before anything such as Coerver.

"No one owns the moves. They are things kids all round the world do for fun.

"From what I've seen of Coerver it's just plain boring. I have no idea why people want to do it."

Soccer NSW chief executive Robert Waddell said he could not understand why there was any fuss about the matter. "It's not insulting to Harry and while we will not say that he went through the program I will say that he was exposed to the Coerver method." he said.

"We have sent through stern emails to our coaches around the place in the last couple of months instructing them not to mention Harry's name.

"We took Harry's name off the website 18 months ago after they complained.

"I'm not sure why this is all being brought up. Maybe Harry wants to lend his name to another coaching method."

Like Viduka?

Ooops his Victorian!

But if you can point one out from NSW would appreciate it.:lol:

Zing! :lol:

basically the situation is thus.
Now we have a system and a curriculum.
Like all systems it is far from perfect but it can be tweaked , if players of a high ability are not being found or fall through the system it can be changed to pick them up.
Before we had no system and therefore no way of knowing who or what was falling through the cracks. so in conclusion maybe the question should be.

How many quality players did we lose to the game before the system was introduced?

:lol:

clearly you and chips are fools


:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
[youtube]http://content.video.news.com.au/NDM_-_Daily_Telegraph/846/26/TIMCAHILL_VIDEO_VCMS_NA006499_679317.JPG[/youtube]

Edited by krones3: 16/1/2012 08:27:25 PM

For the people pointing towards the English system were some of our best players have come through, it aint that great either. Look at the English sides over the years. They have pretty poor and this is largely blamed on the countries poor youth system and infrastructure. The rise of the technically gifted European teams has caused a pretty big rethink to there system which is in the process of being over hauled.

The argument over the so called 'Golden Era' of players seems a bit silly to me. In my opinion it was just that there was a decent pool of gifted players being born in this country in that time period. It happens with all sports. In some decades talented player after talented player is produced. Look at the australian cricket team for example. We had a rich abundance of players to pick from that were classed as the worlds best but that generation has never been replaced really, not many players have come through in the last few years that match up to the Warnes Mcgraths etc.

Who knows maybe right now 20 odd players are now being created by mummy and daddy that will become world beaters.

So Timmy was too small and too weak to play football in Oz so he thought righto then lets head off to England, a country renowned for producing footballing smurfs. FFS.

Keep 'em coming kronesy. :lol:

How far can someone miss a point. :lol:

Lee's offsider at the time was Oscar Gonzalez, who worked closely with Kewell.

OG became FNSW's Coerver dude AFTER Kewell had gawn to Leeds.

Oh and David Lee (and his pet poodle) was a bit of an old wanker.

:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This question can only be answered by Berger's financial planner.

Edited by judy free: 16/1/2012 10:00:43 PM

Yes his words accept it chips the football world before the ffa was not the rose one you paint.
It was shite.

To prove that being shit at these tournaments wasn't a) just a fluke this time round or b) a precursor to some amazing post-tournament ugly-duckling-to-beautiful-swan transformation (I know, I know)

Seriously though - if you can't see decent players coming through in the A-League after this time (wasn't the NYL supposed to be an extra support structure to improve younger kids for the national league?) or we're not showing progress in the youth tournaments, the program is a failure. I hope it won't be, but hey the jury's out.

I couldn't give two hoots about Berger or his financial planner, I'm more interested in increasing the set of results before we come to a judgement.

Dave,

Well I have seen and spoken to a few NYL players of late. One or two in particular which are simply head and shoulders a standout above the others. If they don't get a gig in our national youth side they will go overseas which will more than likely be the case. They also tell me there are some very shit players in NYL that shouldn't be there but they have political friends in high places through the old boys network which gained them spots. I will be watching to see if these shit players progress or get dumped like they should have been in the first place. But something tells me there is seriously something wrong with the system if these shit players can get NYL spots in the first place at the expense of real talent.

So good luck with waiting until the jury returns in 5-10 years time. I already know what's going to happen in the future due to the precursor of now with respect to NYL. It's not rocket science, the more duds we allow into NYL means less pool of real talent to work with. The smaller the pool the smaller results.

Fortunately other sports like Cricket, Rugby, Union, Hockey etc will give us something to celebrate while football continues to fall on it's sword for the next 10-50 years.

*SIGH*

I dont think so champ, ive seen the standard of the NYL, and tell you the truth its more entertaining than the a-league, their is some good talent out their,ive seen the sydney fc youth team play and im convinced we are getting it right slowly but surely with the selction process, sure its not perfect but the NC is the best to happen for aus football in a long time.

If i ask did we have a plan before the NC was released, what was the selection process like??? i joke a huge joke infact, we were lucky great NSL clubs like Sydney United, Olympic and the melb knights produced some great but the rest didnt follow, thats why the talent has dried up in the last 10 years or so, NC is great because its IS A PLAN and thats crucial.

The NC says its about selecting the most talented players, whilst in the old system its was focused more the selecting big and athletic players i.e what we have seen in our short history in the a-league, i think and i hope things would change in the future with the NC taking shape, so we will see more match winning players instead of big and strong players which have been the norm for aus football for the past 20 years or so.

Well this just my opinion from what ive seen in front of me its not that bad, we have look at the positives not the negatives, and to not critize for the sake of it.

Politically, maybe. But we've always done that and I don't see any sign that we'll stop any time soon. It really doesn't matter if Chips Rafferty, Frank Lowy, or Craig Foster were in the top role in football in this country - they'd still favour mates and do dodgy deals.

Results-wise we'll actually do quite well, and I think continue to make world cups, or at least be very competitive in qualifying, as part of our move into Asia. Could the side in four years time do what the '06 Roos did? No. Could the teams from after '74 til '02 do what the '06 Roos did? No. But at least for the time being we're the beneficiary of an Asian move.

I've been contacted via PM about the Old Boys network, from anonymous coaches expressing disquiet about the status quo from what I said on the thread about the status quo with Berger's national system. I'm sure others have been contacted too.

The Old Boys network often determines who receives coaching licences and who doesn't, as the licences become more advanced. Some coaches, even ones in the FFA system, are going to Singapore to do licences there. There is a perception they will be evaluated impartially off shore.

I've also seen it with FFA state rep sides, but not on the scale as Aussiesrus has delineated in some of his posts in the NSW scenario. Conversely, I've also known some rep coaches who've wanted to be as impartial and fair as possible too.

The current KNVB trained national coaches use similar methodology to anyone in Holland.

I've seen a slight difference between the youth stage of development. The FFA NC put more onus on Insight than Technique. The KNVB put more emphasis on technique in Holland in the youth stage of development. Otherwise it is pretty similar.

In terms of FFA NC implementation from what I've read from Aussiesrus in NSW, and my empirical experience in this state, the implementation could be quite different between Australia and Holland.
This may not be Berger's fault, but many of his subordinate empire builders in the states.

Chips, you miss the point between our old ad hoc methodology and a new European based curriculum. Have you read the NC?

How does it compare to what you did with the Aussie national federation in the nineties?

It would be useful for you to have undertaken training in both systems before you can pontificate on this topic, Chips.

Baan, Berger would probably do the same/similar in Australia as Rinus Michaels, Henny Kormelink, Arie Schans, Ad Derkson, etc., in the Netherlands.

It is not quality of those coaches, because they espouse the same methodology, having been trained in the same methodology.

Aside from snide one-liners and sniping from the sidelines I've never seen Mr Free contribute a single idea or put forward any proposition on how anything can be done better so I'm not sure why you bother posing any question to him.

If you want someone to bag the shit out of anything by anybody then he's your go to man.

Couldn't offer a positive or constructive opinion if his life depended on it.

Bitter and twisted would only half cover it.

Or he just says things youse do not like to hear.

yes you could be right.

no on second thoughts

he is a dick.

Maybe your both as closed minded as each other?

Meh. Problem always happens at every workplace; someone has an unhealthy obsession The Old Way and hates The New Way, while someone else is a zealot of The New Way and constantly preaches to the heathens who still follow The Old Way, possibly due a perceived mental handicap, the poor dears. Meanwhile, everyone else just gets the fuck on with the job at hand.

Maybe, maybe not. Like anyone you're entitled to criticise but mindless automatic naysaying is boring as batshit and adds nothing to the conversation. If the bloke is so smart then lets hear some ideas from him that we can judge on their merits.

So far from what I can glean from the limited information in his posts is that he thinks foreign (especially the Dutch) coaches have come here to steal all the FFA's money. Really that's about it.

He's the Pauline Hanson of the 442 forums. All complaints and whinges, no solutions.

Isn't he just a common troll? Apart from that though, who is he? He sounds like someone who would tell his team at half time they weren't showing enough 'bottle' or they weren't 'getting stuck in' hahaha ... no but seriously, who is he? who's he coached?

I think it is difficult to answer the question unless you saw Tim as a young player. Two things are certain though the old system didnt identify his potential and the new system would have worked consistantly on the technical areas you suggest are lacking.

Tim Cahill with great touch , long and short passing of both feet, some real deception and the ability to run at players added to his current strengths could be the 1st true world class Australian player.

The major problem for the National Cirriculum is educating the coaches to understand the pupose behind the practice, not just the disenfranchised but those who are activly involved.

Some truth in that.

And I will admit that I've never sought advice from the mail room lackey for board level matters.

Still, I'm mildly amused why you old ladies are discussing this over the FFT paling fence?

Edited by judy free: 25/1/2012 12:41:47 PM

There is a chasm between what we had in Australia before and now European based methodology.

The way FFA implement it as it goes down through the ranks maybe a problem though. It seems too prescriptive and some stakeholders are using it as an exercise to wield power. This may be the way Frank Lowy operates Westfields.



Edited by Decentric: 26/1/2012 06:55:05 AM