The Australian Politics thread: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese


The Australian Politics thread: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese

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f1worldchamp
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notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/anao-report-on-ber-fact-meets-narrative.html

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough. I'm sure if you aired some actualmproof that the government didn't pay you for work completed you would be a Liberal Party hero.

You mean like this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-03/subcontractors-owed-money-over-ber-projects/4293868

This is a builder problem, not a government problem.

What would happen if a builder went bust in the same situation, but in the private sector?



no builder problem, the government didn't pay him so i didn't get paid....he put in the variations as requested by the project manger representing the BER works and didn't honour his paperwork......so instead of blowing good money after bad you right it off as a bad debt.......

you really need to run a business for a while to see how unjust the system is for business owners....seriously


I currently run 3 businesses, and am about to start a fourth in a new industry. Other than having to pay exorbitant amounts of money for public liability insurance, I fail to see how the system is "unjust" for me.

Seriously.




Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough.

I'm sure if you aired some actual proof that this is the case you would be a ALP/Greenie hero.;) \:d/ \:d/ \:d/



What kind of proof would you like? My ABN's?

Well, what kind of proof did you want from Batfink? Would you like to speak with his accountant?
Edited
9 Years Ago by f1worldchamp
afromanGT
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I love how a guy who can't tell the difference between you're/your is trying to differentiate complicated fiscal policies.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/anao-report-on-ber-fact-meets-narrative.html

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough. I'm sure if you aired some actualmproof that the government didn't pay you for work completed you would be a Liberal Party hero.

You mean like this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-03/subcontractors-owed-money-over-ber-projects/4293868

This is a builder problem, not a government problem.

What would happen if a builder went bust in the same situation, but in the private sector?



no builder problem, the government didn't pay him so i didn't get paid....he put in the variations as requested by the project manger representing the BER works and didn't honour his paperwork......so instead of blowing good money after bad you right it off as a bad debt.......

you really need to run a business for a while to see how unjust the system is for business owners....seriously


I currently run 3 businesses, and am about to start a fourth in a new industry. Other than having to pay exorbitant amounts of money for public liability insurance, I fail to see how the system is "unjust" for me.

Seriously.




Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough.

I'm sure if you aired some actual proof that this is the case you would be a ALP/Greenie hero.;) \:d/ \:d/ \:d/



What kind of proof would you like? My ABN's?



](*,) ](*,) LOL...oh yeah that will do it........dear oh dear.....:cry: :cry: :cry:
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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afromanGT wrote:
I love how a guy who can't tell the difference between you're/your is trying to differentiate complicated fiscal policies.



i can't be fucked worrying about it.......:d :d

i love a guy who pontificates about insignificant issues as if they are paramount in ascertaining someone's worth....lol.....


but hey 10 points for trying......\:d/ \:d/


Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/anao-report-on-ber-fact-meets-narrative.html

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough. I'm sure if you aired some actualmproof that the government didn't pay you for work completed you would be a Liberal Party hero.

You mean like this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-03/subcontractors-owed-money-over-ber-projects/4293868

This is a builder problem, not a government problem.

What would happen if a builder went bust in the same situation, but in the private sector?



no builder problem, the government didn't pay him so i didn't get paid....he put in the variations as requested by the project manger representing the BER works and didn't honour his paperwork......so instead of blowing good money after bad you right it off as a bad debt.......

you really need to run a business for a while to see how unjust the system is for business owners....seriously


I currently run 3 businesses, and am about to start a fourth in a new industry. Other than having to pay exorbitant amounts of money for public liability insurance, I fail to see how the system is "unjust" for me.

Seriously.




Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough.

I'm sure if you aired some actual proof that this is the case you would be a ALP/Greenie hero.;) \:d/ \:d/ \:d/



What kind of proof would you like? My ABN's?

Well, what kind of proof did you want from Batfink? Would you like to speak with his accountant?


It's pretty easy to show in a single document that no payment had been received for work completed.

There are still a few preliminary questions that were ignored, though. A big one being what the process would be if the same thing happened with private money as opposed to public stimulus money.
Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
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batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...


My local Coles just advertised for a retail assistant (ie checkout chick). Normally they get around 10-20 applications. They had 87.

I've been looking to move on from my venue and I've never had so much trouble getting a gig as I am right now. Normally I've had 4-5 offers, I've had 1.

Batfink, you are by far the most out of touch person on this forum.



not really......explain to me that if it's so hard to get a job and there are job jobs out there the unemployment rate remains the same???:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just because there are jobs out there doesn't mean that they're in skilled areas that you are trained in. Yeah, there are are jobs out there for tradesmen, but I'm not a tradesman. And yeah, there are jobs out there in the mining sector, but I've got no idea about working in mining.

My area is hospitality, it's an industry I know very well. But right now businesses are cutting their hours because it's winter and they're quiet, businesses are going under and 2/3 of the businesses in the CBD are on the market.

"Go and get a job" he says, having not weighed into the job market for the last 15 years. Out of touch asshole.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
I love how a guy who can't tell the difference between you're/your is trying to differentiate complicated fiscal policies.



i can't be fucked worrying about it.......:d :d

i love a guy who pontificates about insignificant issues as if they are paramount in ascertaining someone's worth....lol.....


but hey 10 points for trying......\:d/ \:d/


Well if you can't grasp a basic concept like the difference between you're and your, a concept which is so simple they teach it to 8 year olds, how on earth are we to believe that you can competently comprehend the complicated nuances of politics?
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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Meanwhile, in Wagga

Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
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notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
batfink wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/anao-report-on-ber-fact-meets-narrative.html

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough. I'm sure if you aired some actualmproof that the government didn't pay you for work completed you would be a Liberal Party hero.

You mean like this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-03/subcontractors-owed-money-over-ber-projects/4293868

This is a builder problem, not a government problem.

What would happen if a builder went bust in the same situation, but in the private sector?



no builder problem, the government didn't pay him so i didn't get paid....he put in the variations as requested by the project manger representing the BER works and didn't honour his paperwork......so instead of blowing good money after bad you right it off as a bad debt.......

you really need to run a business for a while to see how unjust the system is for business owners....seriously


I currently run 3 businesses, and am about to start a fourth in a new industry. Other than having to pay exorbitant amounts of money for public liability insurance, I fail to see how the system is "unjust" for me.

Seriously.




Sorry mate, calling bullshit.

It's one of those situations where your anecdotes just aren't enough.

I'm sure if you aired some actual proof that this is the case you would be a ALP/Greenie hero.;) \:d/ \:d/ \:d/



What kind of proof would you like? My ABN's?

Well, what kind of proof did you want from Batfink? Would you like to speak with his accountant?


It's pretty easy to show in a single document that no payment had been received for work completed. sure i could provide that...!!!! IF i thought that it would satisfy you...however i doubt that it would

There are still a few preliminary questions that were ignored, though. A big one being what the process would be if the same thing happened with private money as opposed to public stimulus money.
i fail to see if it happened with private money that it would change the fact that the government didn't pay me or the builder????



Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.
Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
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notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.

Edited
9 Years Ago by f1worldchamp
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afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...


My local Coles just advertised for a retail assistant (ie checkout chick). Normally they get around 10-20 applications. They had 87.

I've been looking to move on from my venue and I've never had so much trouble getting a gig as I am right now. Normally I've had 4-5 offers, I've had 1.

Batfink, you are by far the most out of touch person on this forum.



not really......explain to me that if it's so hard to get a job and there are job jobs out there the unemployment rate remains the same???:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just because there are jobs out there doesn't mean that they're in skilled areas that you are trained in. Yeah, there are are jobs out there for tradesmen, but I'm not a tradesman. And yeah, there are jobs out there in the mining sector, but I've got no idea about working in mining.

My area is hospitality, it's an industry I know very well. But right now businesses are cutting their hours because it's winter and they're quiet, businesses are going under and 2/3 of the businesses in the CBD are on the market.

"Go and get a job" he says, having not weighed into the job market for the last 15 years. Out of touch asshole.


why are these businesses are quite???? other than winter, is this the first time you have had issues finding employment in your chosen field?? what is your chosen field....be specific...... so in this great economy why is it that businesses are going under and 2/3 are on the market???
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
I love how a guy who can't tell the difference between you're/your is trying to differentiate complicated fiscal policies.



i can't be fucked worrying about it.......:d :d

i love a guy who pontificates about insignificant issues as if they are paramount in ascertaining someone's worth....lol.....


but hey 10 points for trying......\:d/ \:d/


Well if you can't grasp a basic concept like the difference between you're and your, a concept which is so simple they teach it to 8 year olds, how on earth are we to believe that you can competently comprehend the complicated nuances of politics?



Please Afro if it really means that much to you i will take the time and make an effort, i am truly sorry, but once again just because someone's English isn't perfect it doesn't mean they can't understand politics or anything else for that matter.......say i was dyslexic???? does that make me stupid??? KO...;)
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.


Constantly posting links to Mudoch articles that don't answer the questions I'm asking really doesn't further the discussion.
Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
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notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.



:shock: :shock: Really Matt don't be such a fuckwit........

i feel really sorry for you....seriously....


yes i saw the contract reconciliation along with the variation register.......

and i suppose waiting 7 months for payment is acceptable......and drawings issued to contractors marked up with felt tip markers is also professional??


Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.


Constantly posting links to Mudoch articles that don't answer the questions I'm asking really doesn't further the discussion.

Just keep going on your merry way, convinced everthing this government does is gold and ignoring all presented examples to the contrary....
Edited
9 Years Ago by f1worldchamp
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batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...


My local Coles just advertised for a retail assistant (ie checkout chick). Normally they get around 10-20 applications. They had 87.

I've been looking to move on from my venue and I've never had so much trouble getting a gig as I am right now. Normally I've had 4-5 offers, I've had 1.

Batfink, you are by far the most out of touch person on this forum.



not really......explain to me that if it's so hard to get a job and there are job jobs out there the unemployment rate remains the same???:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just because there are jobs out there doesn't mean that they're in skilled areas that you are trained in. Yeah, there are are jobs out there for tradesmen, but I'm not a tradesman. And yeah, there are jobs out there in the mining sector, but I've got no idea about working in mining.

My area is hospitality, it's an industry I know very well. But right now businesses are cutting their hours because it's winter and they're quiet, businesses are going under and 2/3 of the businesses in the CBD are on the market.

"Go and get a job" he says, having not weighed into the job market for the last 15 years. Out of touch asshole.


why are these businesses are quite???? other than winter, is this the first time you have had issues finding employment in your chosen field?? what is your chosen field....be specific...... so in this great economy why is it that businesses are going under and 2/3 are on the market???

You know if you actually read my post, all your questions would be answered.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...


My local Coles just advertised for a retail assistant (ie checkout chick). Normally they get around 10-20 applications. They had 87.

I've been looking to move on from my venue and I've never had so much trouble getting a gig as I am right now. Normally I've had 4-5 offers, I've had 1.

Batfink, you are by far the most out of touch person on this forum.



not really......explain to me that if it's so hard to get a job and there are job jobs out there the unemployment rate remains the same???:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just because there are jobs out there doesn't mean that they're in skilled areas that you are trained in. Yeah, there are are jobs out there for tradesmen, but I'm not a tradesman. And yeah, there are jobs out there in the mining sector, but I've got no idea about working in mining.

My area is hospitality, it's an industry I know very well. But right now businesses are cutting their hours because it's winter and they're quiet, businesses are going under and 2/3 of the businesses in the CBD are on the market.

"Go and get a job" he says, having not weighed into the job market for the last 15 years. Out of touch asshole.


why are these businesses are quite???? other than winter, is this the first time you have had issues finding employment in your chosen field?? what is your chosen field....be specific...... so in this great economy why is it that businesses are going under and 2/3 are on the market???

You know if you actually read my post, all your questions would be answered.


why so defensive...i did read you post...perhaps if you actually read mine you could have answered.....hospitality is a pretty wide scope.....do you wait tables, manage a bar....mix bands.....work in a kitchen....bounce the door???? all very valid questions

perhaps it's time to get some toher training, it's available to you, considering that business have had to change retrain and reshape can't see why it's so hard for individuals to do the same?
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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afromanGT wrote:
Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.



have you any formal qualifications in any of these area's??
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.



have you any formal qualifications in any of these area's??

I've got a cert IV in Hospitality and a degree in audio.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
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afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.



have you any formal qualifications in any of these area's??

I've got a cert IV in Hospitality and a degree in audio.



hard to believe you can't find a job? (not being smartarse)is it really tight in your sector?? or you have a job but are looking???
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.



have you any formal qualifications in any of these area's??

I've got a cert IV in Hospitality and a degree in audio.



hard to believe you can't find a job? (not being smartarse)is it really tight in your sector?? or you have a job but are looking???

Because it's Winter and businesses are quieter - less customers, takings, etc. - companies are cutting their staff rather than hiring. So there are less jobs around.

I'm looking to leave my current bar because I'm having issues with the owner and getting paid properly.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
notorganic
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f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.


Constantly posting links to Mudoch articles that don't answer the questions I'm asking really doesn't further the discussion.

Just keep going on your merry way, convinced everthing this government does is gold and ignoring all presented examples to the contrary....


Erm, perhaps read the last page where I was critical of the government for cutting tertiary funding?

Nothing you have posted points at fault with the government, rather than dodgy builders not dispersing funds.

Edited by notorganic: 13/6/2013 06:13:05 PM
Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
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Edited
9 Years Ago by notorganic
f1worldchamp
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notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.


Constantly posting links to Mudoch articles that don't answer the questions I'm asking really doesn't further the discussion.

Just keep going on your merry way, convinced everthing this government does is gold and ignoring all presented examples to the contrary....


Erm, perhaps read the last page where I was critical of the government for cutting tertiary funding?

Nothing you have posted points at fault with the government, rather than dodgy builders not dispersing funds.

Edited by notorganic: 13/6/2013 06:13:05 PM

You have called the BER program 'highly successful', which is clearly isn't.
So whose responsibility is it to oversee the dodgy builders? The government initiates the program, then just walks away and leaves them to it but it's failure isn't the governments fault? They have no responsibility to oversee the correct use of taxpayer funds at all? Are you serious?
Edited
9 Years Ago by f1worldchamp
batfink
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afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
batfink wrote:
afromanGT wrote:
Over the last 5 years I've done work as a bouncer, bussy, bartender, KP, audio engineer, bar manager...I've done pretty much everything but chef.



have you any formal qualifications in any of these area's??

I've got a cert IV in Hospitality and a degree in audio.



hard to believe you can't find a job? (not being smartarse)is it really tight in your sector?? or you have a job but are looking???

Because it's Winter and businesses are quieter - less customers, takings, etc. - companies are cutting their staff rather than hiring. So there are less jobs around.

I'm looking to leave my current bar because I'm having issues with the owner and getting paid properly.


i see...yes that's an issue.... my brother is a sound engineer and works a few pubs doing front of house....some of the owners are grubs and stuff him around.....the industry i would say...the type of people who are in it......

you sound experienced and should have no problem finding something, good luck with it....

i read an article recently about christine mansfield and how she has closed down her restaurants because of the cost of operating and the wage explosion and there are many others following....i guess there needs to be a balance.....i am fortunate i have great staff and they regard me as a great employer as we work together and get good outcomes....i treat my people like i would like to be treated.....i suppose in here i take offense to a lot when people critisise employers and businesses....but i am starting to realise that i/we are not the norm.....i look after my people really good and they go above and beyond so it's all good..........


Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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Owners are just greedy, they live like kings when the going is good and then they're not willing to live within their means when the going isn't good.

It's not the industry, there are great jobs out there. But the great jobs are occupied by people who work there for a long time. And often when people move on they hire people that they know.
Edited
9 Years Ago by afromanGT
batfink
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notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
f1worldchamp wrote:
notorganic wrote:
Did you see any actual documents proving that the government didn't pay the builder, or were you just taking the builder on their word.

Do you want to question all 300 contractors?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/inquiry-call-as-building-the-education-revolution-firms-crash/story-fn59niix-1226007228813
Quote:
THE nation's most powerful building union has called for a federal government inquiry into a string of corporate collapses on Building the Education Revolution projects, which have left 300 sub-contractors with about 1000 employees owed about $20 million.


Constantly posting links to Mudoch articles that don't answer the questions I'm asking really doesn't further the discussion.

Just keep going on your merry way, convinced everthing this government does is gold and ignoring all presented examples to the contrary....


Erm, perhaps read the last page where I was critical of the government for cutting tertiary funding?

Nothing you have posted points at fault with the government, rather than dodgy builders not dispersing funds.

Edited by notorganic: 13/6/2013 06:13:05 PM



i can't say i have ever come across a more pig headed person then Matt Morris.....](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

another of your conclusions..."dodgey builder" get a grip they are a trusted company that i have worked with for 20 years, they have never squibbed on my account and have always been open and transparent, neither of us did anything wrong, the BER was a sham and plenty of people were fucked over....if you choose to pretend that's not the case well so be it....
but don't start your shit by trying to discredit what anyone else who has experienced it....

maybe in you limited comprehension it's all as pure as the driven snow but i have been there and you are completely wrong about the BER and the solar scheme and very soon the NBN will run right off the rails as it already had started to disrail........keep dreaming Matt....](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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afromanGT wrote:
Owners are just greedy, they live like kings when the going is good and then they're not willing to live within their means when the going isn't good.

It's not the industry, there are great jobs out there. But the great jobs are occupied by people who work there for a long time. And often when people move on they hire people that they know.


you sound just like my brother...lol....never really has been much money in the sound industry.....what qualifications as a sound engineer do you have????
Edited
9 Years Ago by batfink
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