Religion


Religion

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johnsmith
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martyB wrote:
Can we skip to the part where Jesus is supposed to be a fair-haired, anglo???


Jesus was a Jew, and looked like Jews did 2,000 years ago. The fair-haired Jesus is probably due to Renaissance art, and Italian and European artists preferred to paint Jesus to look like their own European culture.
martyB
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johnsmith wrote:
martyB wrote:
Can we skip to the part where Jesus is supposed to be a fair-haired, anglo???


Jesus was a Jew, and looked like Jews did 2,000 years ago. The fair-haired Jesus is probably due to Renaissance art, and Italian and European artists preferred to paint Jesus to look like their own European culture.
*coughs*
johnsmith
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Time for bed, Socceroo fans:

Some bedtime reading for you:

16 I ask the Father in his great glory to give you the power to be strong inwardly through his Spirit.17 I pray that Christ will live in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.18 And I pray that you and all God's holy people will have the power to understand the greatness of Christ's love—how wide and how long and how high and how deep that love is.19 Christ's love is greater than anyone can ever know, but I pray that you will be able to know that love. Then you can be filled with the fullness of God.

20 With God's power working in us, God can do much, much more than anything we can ask or imagine.21 To him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus for all time, forever and ever. Amen.

Eph 3:14-21
Nico
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And some for you good sir.

The reliability of the Bible, in reference in particular to the resurrection of Jebus. Contradictions Of The Resurrection, or the so called "ultimate proof".

And this seems to sum up the reasons for my beliefs brillaintly -
Why I dismiss Christianity If you really don't want to read it, at least read the 8 points. They sum it up anyway.


martyB
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Quote:
heresay isn't acceptable
Exactly. I don't like the bible because it lacks a bibliography. Wikipedia has more credibility. Which makes me wonder how exactly Jimmy Wales came up with the idea of wikipedia... :-" Methinks wikipedia is the Modern Testament, and will be published for the next 1,000 years of civilisation to live by its word!!


FWIW, here's my view on the issue. I was once one to 'dismiss' religion (Christianity in particular), but now I'm a bit older, I've learnt to see things a bit differently.

Whether God really does exist is quite irrelevant. What is relevant, is belief, and its influence on your life. Some people honestly believe that there is a God, others (a majority) understand that there probably isn't a God, but see God as something other than an old bearded man living in the sky: an entity which lives inside one's self.

This is how you get your extremists (irrespective of faith): interpretation. Everyone has their own interpretation of who/what God is, and this ultimately determines how they live their life.

I personally cannot comprehend faith in something completely intrinsic. I can only comprehend the empirical entities of the world - as this makes most sense to me, as does faith to others.

In saying all this, I believe this thread to be a waste of time. There is no need to debate the existence of God, the validity of ancient texts, or the blatant attempt by both sides of the argument to dispel each other's views.

You can't simply say that religion causes bad things in the world. Yes, it does. But so does politics, economics and science. These four things in any combination will give both good and bad outcomes. Religion has given humanity law and morals, as well as ethnic tensions and war; as nuclear science has given us health care and weapons of mass destruction.

But this ping-pong tussle of personal beliefs isn't going to do much more than appease your egos.

So screw you guys, Ima going to sleep. > >
johnsmith
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Nico wrote:
And some for you good sir.

The reliability of the Bible, in reference in particular to the resurrection of Jebus. Contradictions Of The Resurrection, or the so called "ultimate proof".

And this seems to sum up the reasons for my beliefs brillaintly -
Why I dismiss Christianity If you really don't want to read it, at least read the 8 points. They sum it up anyway.





Before I take time to respond, may I ask: what will you do if I give reasonable answers for most points raised. Will you take the next step? There are answers, and I'll take time to answer them, if you are open to becoming a Christian if your questions can be answered to your satisfaction.
Nico
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martyB wrote:

You can't simply say that religion causes bad things in the world. Yes, it does. But so does politics, economics and science. These four things in any combination will give both good and bad outcomes. Religion has given humanity law and morals, as well as ethnic tensions and war; as nuclear science has given us health care and weapons of mass destruction.

I agree with most of what you say except here. See Economics, Politics and Science have an undoubted importance, EVERYONE needs these things and to say that Religion is only as bad is silly. Religions faults are endless, and yes I realize generally its at the hands of extremists, but nonetheless, Religion IS the cause. 9/11, Hitler and the Holocaust, and then theres all the wars. So I think we can generally accept that there is quite a disadvantage to that of Religion. On the flip side, if it we look at its benefits, to me it seems like we're aren't really that beneficial if all it comes down to is morals for two reasons. Most of the morals you speak of are very basic, eg. Don't murder. The other factor is that we clearly haven't taken our morals from religions - they have developed over generations. Besides my opinion on that, that I and many others don't have their morals through religion, there is also the fact that if we had taken the bible literally in making our morals for example, things like child molestation may well seem acceptable...

I'm not trying to take further arguments here BTW, I just felt that that needed to be said.

Quote:
But this ping-pong tussle of personal beliefs isn't going to do much more than appease your egos.

Well, tbh, I don't really get why that would be such an issue? Its in Extra Time, to me there isn't abuse? I don't really understand how necessary it is to tell me that this thread is waste of time. I'm quite content with the only benefit being my ego, but that was never the aim, nor was the thread to have a argument on Religion. I was genuinely interested in what johnsmiths viewpoints were, however I did take some annoyance to the constant preaching.

johnsmith, I thought I gave a clear viewpoint that I am not open about coming Christian? The idea of that post is so that you could understand where I am coming from. You say you've studied these others religions and therefore have an understanding, but I wonder how open minded you were actually being...

ryan2008
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Nico how do you explain the bones they found in old tomes? Not sure which people they were from, one might have been John.

and Johnsmith you are a scientologist (without reading this thread) or???
Stop forcing things dow people's throat and saying to convert... blah, blah, blah
mk0825
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So like this Jebus dude was a jew yeah but other Jews killed him? So thats why christians hate jews? And then Jebus rose from the dead, and created his own religion? O...k? Then he dissapeared to unpack his bags in heaven?

"The most followed piece of fiction ever written. A fairytale to explain to people what man can't explain and provide them with comfort by shielding them from the truth."

I like this one. And this one: "The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense."
Nico
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ryan2008 wrote:
Nico how do you explain the bones they found in old tomes? Not sure which people they were from, one might have been John.


Er, I explain it by accepting that there were people in the tombs? If it makes you happy, I accept there was a bloke named Jesus, who was nailed to a cross. What I do not accept is that Jesus was was the Messiah and son any such "God".

mk0825 wrote:
And this one: "The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense."


That is gold.
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Jesus may have been real. He may have been killed by the Jews. But him coming back from the dead is most certainly not real.
deportivo1985
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
screw any religion, its the cause for most wars its all a ranting raving lie and everyone in the clergy seems to love "gods children" a little to much if you know what i mean.


Has anyone here seen the movie "Dogma"(hold on mods, this is still on topic). One line I love about this film and I honestly believe is when Chris Rocks character states "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant".

I really like this point and probably is why I dont like to associate myself with any Religion. On that note I still believe in God, but not in the traditional sense. The way I see it, If I make something significant out of my life without having to compromise others lives, religions or choices then Ive done well.
I dont attend church either because i dont like the idea of 'Gods house', as why should there be restrictions to something so primitive as a building erected in his honour(when such funds could be used to fund charities---wouldnt that seem a more accurate idea of Gods work)
Anyway, Im begining to rant. So thats my stance and has been for a fair while now.
ryan2008
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Nico I think you need to go to school or something. Or the toilet, as you got so much crap falling out of you and MK...
imnofreak
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Theres nothing achieved by just putting down other peoples ideas and not saying anything constructive.
I may not agree with a lot of things said in this thread but im not gonna start telling them they are full of crap without even trying to provide proof.

You are free to express yourself but not at the compromise of others...

Now, I dont believe in jesus getting resurrected but he probably did exist. But why does it seem that for us to be seen as honourable or pure that we must attend a church every sunday to prove our faith
I think leaving this world in a better state than it was when you entered is enough. Believe what you wish, but dont force your beliefs on others
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imnofreak wrote:
Believe what you wish, but dont force your beliefs on others


...anyone feel like jumping on their coach and preasching about scientology?
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My head hurts.
martyB
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Quote:
Well, tbh, I don't really get why that would be such an issue?
It's not, nor did I ever imply that it was.

Quote:
I don't really understand how necessary it is to tell me that this thread is waste of time.
It's a waste of time because nothing will come of it. Soon enough you'll be recycling more ideas and arguments than a West Sydney expansion thread. Meh.

Quote:
I'm quite content with the only benefit being my ego
That's not like you. Or is it? :lol:

Quote:
that was never the aim, nor was the thread to have a argument on Religion.
But you knew all along one was going to ensue.

leftrightout
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The inconsistencies with most Christian way of thinking is that everything is black and white, e.g. the analogy of the road with the broken bridge is daft because in life there several different ways to the same direction. If the bridge is out, take the ferry.

People have to remember that Christianity started about 1000 years after the story of Jesus. And, the way it began...boy what a story! I wouldn’t want to be a pagan while the Christian priest were ordering death to all the pagans who didn’t believe.

The Bible, well that’s just a book of Chinese whispers isn’t it? And not to mention all the gospels that didn’t make the final cut including the gospel of Judas. With all the information available today with faster technology and the internet people are beginning to wizen up.

I for one belong to no religion but I do believe in a higher power that slowly humans will evolve and become more in tuned with.

For an interesting viewing I suggest you YouTube a guy by the name of David Wilcock and listen to all his lectures on religion, science and the universe.

What we know about the universe is the mass amount of a grain of sand on a beach that reaches to infinite. [/rant]


Edited by leftrightout: 9/9/2008 01:00:32 PM
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Well now, this is a fun thread isn't it? Just so you know, I am a Christian, have been for a very long time. I am a Christian because I believe what is said in the Bible to be true. I believe in the resurrection of Jesus and I believe that you can have a personal relationship with him, and that he took my place on the cross.

I think that most people here have stayed resonably civil in their discussions, however one point I would like to address is that "Christianity (and other religions in general) must be a bad thing because belief in such things has caused the most wars throughout history" I know that is not a direct quote of anyone but it is paraphrased from what a number of people think, both here and in wider society.

You have to ask yourself though, does someone's incorrect interpretation of something mean that the evil resides with the person, or the object being interpreted? I am thinking the former. Logic would suggest so as well.

Johnsmith I think it is unlikely that you will persuade anyone to your way of thinking via this medium. It is also said in the Bible that the resurrection will appear plain stupidity to those who have not had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. I have found it quite pointless to argue facts and figures with people who simply believe the Bible to be a pack of lies, or that it is just so old as to be irrelevant. I prefer to use such arguments to help other Christians to strengthen their faith as well as my own. It is like Creation, it seems like a weird idea that doesn't fit with our understanding of Physics, Biology, Mathematics etc, but I don't believe in God because I believe in creation, it is the other way around. The same sort of thing applies to the resurrection, and many other disputred ideas.

Evangelism is a key part of Christianity though, for which I applaud you.

Edited by Spooney: 9/9/2008 01:07:17 PM
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Spooney wrote:
Well now, this is a fun thread isn't it? Just so you know, I am a Christian, have been for a very long time. I am a Christian because I believe what is said in the Bible to be true. I believe in the resurrection of Jesus and I believe that you can have a personaly relationship with him, and that he took my place on the cross.

I think that most people here have stayed resonably civil in their discussions, however one point I would like to address is that "Christianity (and other religions in general) must be a bad thing because belief in such things has cased the most wars throughout history" I know that is not a direct quote of anyone but it is paraphrased from what a number of people think, both here and in wider society.


Pretty much how some people interpret different things. Say, for Islam(they take a hard wrap all the time) has similar 'ideals' as to Christianity, Judaism and surprisingly Buddism. Thats the positive side, but then people become devout and defensive and 'religious' and some just take it too far in their interpretations. Same applies with holy books such as the bible and the torah. Remember, they were written by humans not god. And human are flawed therefore things can be misinterpreted and miscommunicated(like someone refered to chinese whspers). What is important is the ideal, not the detail. better focus on thou shall not kill, thou shall not covet thy neighbours wife instead of who begat who or did the garden of eden really exist. Pretty much, they are a set of guidelines, just focus on that and dont take it as gospel, so to speak.
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leftrightout wrote:
People have to remember that Christianity started about 1000 years after the story of Jesus.

huh? So you are saying that Christianity began around 1000AD? (assuming Jesus was born in 0AD according to our calendar)

What about Constantine in the 300s?

1000 years ago (ie 1000 years after Jesus) was the Crusades! Christianity was in full swing by then for centuries.
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Plus werent the christians persecuted for a long time by the romans and had to worship in secret?
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That too.

Ummm, Colosseum, Christians...lions...ring a bell?
leftrightout
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I said about...

and in "full swing"...do you mean the swinging of swords to pagan heads?
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Well you were 'about' 1000 years off. Christianity by all accounts began when Jesus resurrected on Easter Sunday.
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ryan2008 wrote:
Nico I think you need to go to school or something. Or the toilet, as you got so much crap falling out of you and MK...


Yeah mate, intelligent answer, clearly you haven't even made it to school level yet. If you disagree with me (as clearly many do), thats fine, but back it up with something as others have done. FFS, you haven't even said what I said that is wrong. I have an opinion - no need to attack me for it. I don't believe I have attacked any for theres...

Spooney, you make a very fair point, though truth be told, often it isn't only the extremists. What about all the holy wars? A lot of these are not just at the hands of such people, but many people who are just passionate believers who take the Bible, Torah, or whatever, as literal meaning. To me this is the problem. Many people here have stated that their belief of God is the most important thing, or what they are most passionate about. When you combine this with a literal belief of what the Bible, etc says, the chances of issues arising are far greater. You have people who honestly believe (and I am truly not trying to have a go at anyone) that believe in "miracles" and the like. So why on earth is it not surprising that we have people on this earth who believe that if they die killing Christians they will have 72 wifes (or whatever it is). If people can be told that the world was made in 6 days, and then God had a rest, why do we find it difficult to believe what other cultures believe? I realize I am discussing radicals, but really isn't it pretty radical what a lot of any of the religions have to say? Whilst that quote mk posted earlier is a joke, it does show what level Christianity also believes in.




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mk0825 wrote:
Jesus may have been real. He may have been killed by the Jews. But him coming back from the dead is most certainly not real.


He was definately real and there are many accounts that can prove that Jesus was a man but wether he was the son of Christ is another thing.

I personaly am a Roman Catholic and i am in year 10 at the moment and all of mys school yaers have been at a catholic school. Thanfully though my parents arent too fussed so we only really go to church at Easter and Christmas. I dont really know what i beilieve but i do alot of the time doubt the after life it just dosent seem plausible to me
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Nico wrote:
I have an opinion - no need to attack me for it. I don't believe I have attacked any for theres...

Nico wrote:
Come, johnsmith, bring your bullshit so I can have a good laugh


??????????



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I applaud your efforts johnsmith. You've conveyed Biblical Christianity perfectly without compromise. Takes some guts to put yourself up for ridicule but demonstrates the love you have to warn people of Hell fire.

But I agree with Spooney, I think this exercise is pointless. You use logic to defend your faith, while logic will win you some debates, it won't win them over to Jesus Christ. You need to sit down to good old Gospel preaching for that to happen.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'll spend forever debating the same accusations against Biblical Christianity that have been parroted for years. ie. So called contradictions, the Bible has been changed over time (to control the "masses" ), science has disproved God, Jesus wasn't real, 6 day Creation is a joke etc. etc.

Even though all these things have been successfully refuted (many times), the fact remains that it is easier to parrot these accusations (and have fun doing it) without really wanting answers. And I think this will lead you to eventual frustration.

My advise is to open invitation for people to PM you if they want more information. But if you choose to continue, keep it up, you're doing a great job.
Nico
Nico
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Chilugal wrote:
Nico wrote:
I have an opinion - no need to attack me for it. I don't believe I have attacked any for theres...

Nico wrote:
Come, johnsmith, bring your bullshit so I can have a good laugh


??????????




Yeah right. Heavy attack I posted. It was the original part and after that I took everything seriously. At that point, not one view point had been put forward. The claim that ryan2008 made was an actual reply to something I had said, although he offered no reasons for it. Clearly me and johnsmith have had a lengthy discussion and I understand where he stands now. I'm not ridiculing him for it.

Quote:
You use logic to defend your faith, while logic will win you some debates, it won't win them over to Jesus Christ.


I am trying my best to just leave this thread, but comments are just frustrating me to the point of agony. There is no logic in Jesus Christ. It is built on faith - that faith is of higher importance than fact and the logic. You won't win a debate on Jesus Christ with logic, BECAUSE THERE IS NO LOGIC IN JESUS CHRIST. Why are myths seen as a logical argument. The mind boggles. Surely logic would be using science...

Quote:
Takes some guts to put yourself up for ridicule but demonstrates the love you have to warn people of Hell fire.

Heres a great clue for you, I don't want your warnings. The are already telemarketers and a million other people who want to try and sell me some crap. I appreciate that you find happiness in God, but do you really need to preach? I'm not trying to send anyone towards the ways of non-believing, so why do the majority of the Christians here want to convert everyone? While I believe you are all wasting your time going to Church, etc, I am hardly going to tell you that you shouldn't be doing it. I accept peoples beliefs. Some of you people need to accept others...

The idea of this was to have a healthy debate. And I realize and accept its partly my fault, but the fact is that this is going nowhere (yes, you were right marty :p). All you want to do is attempt to convert, not educate - which I truly was interested in. I don't understand how one person can throw their life at something based with NO evidence. Its something I want to understand. The answer I get instead is - I will tell if you are open to becoming Christian...

And with that, I hope I don't post again...
GO


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