Its not the coaches it is the parents if little johnnie scores a goal to the detriment of the team and style of play and the coach points it out he is picking on the kid. Parents all want their kid to score every game from every position.

This is because the NC is not being followed and your points are valid. This is why when game day comes they revert to the easiest way to win because when the pressure is on they cannot do the things like holding the ball in tight situations instead they are too busy clearing the lines.

No point in preaching one thing and then game day doing something else.

I agree, but in a way, game day should just be the icing on the cake. It should be about replicating game situations in training, so the kids train at the same (preferably higher) intensity, speed, and physical contest level as they would on game day. Sure, do the drills, but then encourage the kids to implement theses skills at training in game situations.
From what I've heard, too many coaching sessions seems to be either about giving the kids a ball and letting them run around randomly like chickens with their heads cut off, or conversely, endless drills where kids play brilliantly at half pace against cones but strangely fail to replicate this on game day.

This is the big problem at grassroots level the things getting taught (if they are at all) are not being applied in game scenarios at your every day Sunday morning grass roots games. It is still about winning at sub U12 level even though there is no table kept. It is great running the drills and following the NC though I doubt this is being done to any great level but the boys need to play it during a game. From my experiences this is not happening.

There has to be a better way to manage and assess the SAP stage.

At local level I see good coaches hammered down by the system all the time ie Gareth Edds




unfortunately all the bad ones are kept on at every level.

Edwards was always rubbish, claimed that he would play the curriculum way at Perth Glory, he did the exact opposite. at least Okon has got his team playing some good attacking football, he just lacked the experience to handle certain situations in games whether it be tactically or poor man management skills leaving our certain players i.e Amini at under 20 WC last year.

I think the FFA treated their youth teams for coach development not just for player development i blame Han Berger on that one.

This needs to change, the question is do we have enough quality coaches who have the experience to prepare teams with limited time? Not many i feel...

I agree with you on Edwards.

Good well thought out arguments except for Edwards, Edwards should never be allowed to coach in Australia again.

1. He sends his sons to reading out side the system then holds the system up as a perfect example.
2. Claims to like the 433 but his sons play in a country that predominantly plays 442.
3. Nepotism gets his son a job at Perth glory and this is the worst sin yet. It is Nepotism in every age group in every team in every club in every zone that is the last bastion of the bastards that have and are holding the game back.
He needs to be made an example of.

I know it is hard ( a top coach I know just lost a friend and assistant because he would not select his son over a better player.)but that is why he is a top coach he is willing to make the decisions others are not.

I am no great fan of the FFA, but I believe the NC provides a reasonable blueprint for youth coaching and development, as long as the coaches involved in implementing the system are half decent. The idea of a National skills test has merit, but you still need coaches with the capacity to encourage kids to apply these skills in game scenarios.
My issue is with some ex-players like Katholos who seem to believe the game owes them a living. In comparison, there are a number of ex-NSL players in Sydney who have carved out careers in coaching across a number of years since their retirements. I'm sure not all of them are devotees of the new Dutch system, but many have gone on to do the National Coaching courses. The few that I have talked to about it have commented on how challenging and informative the courses were. Katholos is quick to dismiss coaching certificates, but based on what? His playing days? In the 80s?
As for the FFA youth set-up; I see your Edwards and I'll raise you an Okon. Okon seems to be the perfect example of what Katholos believes should be the norm. He was also one of Australia's best and most technically gifted players. He retired in 2007, and is handed the Aussie youth u18s job in 2008 with no coaching experience. He is still in the national youth setup in 2014, and his Aussie youth teams are still not qualifying, and apparently, still not playing at the technical or tactical standard that we all hope for.

When ever anyone criticises the NC they are attacked and everything they say is listed as complaining but I think there are some valid points made. and yes I would like every kid aged 8 to 12 given exactly the same training each week and no that does not stop coaches from extra training or being creative. It does however insure that every player is given an equal opportunity to develop. I have always been in favour of a national skills test.
so don't throw out the baby with the bath water. as for the FFA they well supported Edwards as did the machine that make up the system. and he has loads of qualifications.

Yes, but what is his stance about? His only issue seems to be that noone is falling over themselves trying to give him the coaching job that he believes he deserves. And he thinks he deserves this, not due to any coaching experience or credentials he holds, but based on his career as a player. He wants a job, and he also wants a manual supplied to him to tell him how to do the job.

At least he is honestly making a stance unlike the Blazers who feel the same but hide thier opinions to keep thier jobs

I think Katholos is symptomatic of an obsolete era in football when good players didn't need accreditation to coach.

Just because students have gone to school, it doesn't mean they can teach.

:lol:

I wonder if the Kat has seen the NC Version 2 where it contains a yearly training program/Manual?

Although he makes some ok points, I find the article as him having a rant on things rather than being constructive.


Also it's silly to say you don't need a certicate to coach kids, Zidane has been banned in Spain for 3 months without having a licence to coach the youth team for Real Madrid...and this man thinks it's useless to have one. :roll:

Different Topic: Does a F1 Driver say he shouldn't need a licence given his status, it's by the rules and regulation to have a licence in any field no matter who you are.




Edited by Barca4life: 28/10/2014 02:06:29 PM

Well said.

Unfortunately, few critics of the FFA NC, really know what it is.

Katholos obviously didn't want to do the work required, and it requires a lot of planning away from the pitch, to devise training sessions.

This is one of the biggest whinges I’ve heard in a football article for a long time, starting straight off the bat that I should be ashamed of myself for not knowing who this guy is, well after reading his arrogant and unintelligent responses im not surprised he has been invisible since his playing days.



As a coach, ask yourself whether you would want to coach in such a uniformed coaching environment, where you “teach” exactly and only what is on your piece of paper. For one thing this would require no coaching experience but for another it would limit the creativity of the coach and his own knowledge of his players and their stage of development. This sounds like a Coerver argument, just teaching certain tricks in a closed environment.


Where in this curriculum he was talking about does it say how to improve ball work and where is the ‘uniformed manual’ that he so highly values? Honestly though the difference is that today we have identified objectively the improvements in: 1v1, RWB, SB and FT. Complemented by a system to teach that within a 8 week cycle of 2 weeks for each core skill; and all on the foundation of philosophy the FFA has devised that according to Raymond Verheijen is the most improved youth system he has ever seen.

Agree that FFA coaching quals are too expensive.

I'd rather SAP be more widely distributed, given players' peaks and troughs in development.

In rep teams I've coached, the best players at the beginning of the season have sometimes been overtaken by others over the season.

Brian Clough, said he was nothing special at 15 years of age. As a player he had an amazing scoring rate of goals pre game too.

Are you still working at the NSW skill acquisition program SAP?
No I finished about a year ago now.

How long were you at SAP for?
For a year at Football NSW

What was your experience like coaching the under 9's through under-12’s?
I coached eastern zone which covers Canterbury District,, St George district and Eastern Suburbs I had all that area, it’s probably one of the main talent pool areas of Sydney.


The zone-based SAPS (eg: Eastern Zone) only existed in Sydney for one season in 2012. They were replaced by club-based (eg: Sydney Olympic which I think is in the Canterbury District) and association-based (eg: St George + Eastern Suburbs) SAP Programs.

I coached kids in my SAP that I believed if I coached for three/four years they would definitely play for Australia they could also play overseas. But those players having seen them play recently they have not progressed as continuity with the same coaching method does not exist.

I'm pretty sure Katholos was the U11-12 coach back in 2012, so any of his players would not have left to play with another SAP (which finishes at U11s), but probably to play Premier League Youth. So, are his issues with SAP, or with the youth league? How many SAP games has he been to in the past two years, and more importantly, which teams has be been watching?

Listen to me here, it’s not about the qualifications. They make it so it’s about the qualifications. This is not being a school teacher,it's demonstrating skill .

Where is the 40 week program that every coach in Australia follows? Where is the manual so everyone is uniformed to do everything the same in skill teaching?

It's ironic that Katholos refers to the need for good coaches and it not about being a school teacher, because any school student would know that there is nothing worse or less inspiring than a teacher who just teaches from the textbook (or the manual).
Back in 2012, the second edition of the National Curriculum had yet to be released. But it has been around for over a year now. I would have thought that the new curriculum provides more than enough of a blueprint to allow quality coaches to develop and implement a quality SAP program incorporating they key philosophies and structures from the curriculum without the need for coaching from a manual.

I agree that the depth of quality coaches within NSW SAP is a problem. So, the only way coaches can improve is through experience (which takes time) or through professional development. This is probably why they "make it all about the qualifications". I mean not every coach can be “the best technical player Australia has produced in the last 25 years.”

What I do agree with the Katholos interview is that SAP is not elite - there are too many teams and too many players - and that FFA coaching qualifications are far too expensive.

These are trials to be selected for the SAP 20 session program but how do you select the best if you only focus on 1 thing during 3 days of trials. SSG only with no passing encouraged just get and run with it from what I saw.

I would have thought a 4 day trial process focusing on 1 of the FFA NC model session for each skill would be the way to properly assess the kids not just SSG over 3 days doing the same thing. Seems logical to me considering this is what they would expect us at the grassroots level to be teaching. You would quickly see who is and is not following the NC.

We do not have an SAP in my area.

I think every u9 in Australia should do the same drills across the country week one drill one.
There should be a national skills test.
You can have every certificate but still not understand player development and football.
FFA accadomies offer no more for the same money as private ones do.
And yes too many FFA coaches are selected on (jobs for the boys ) and worse kept on and even protected by the machine.

A skill test scares the shit out of shit coaches and TD's.

It sound like your organisation needs a staff coach from FFA state/regional branch to provide advice.

I may be biased about SAP and the Skilleroos, as I may have been fortuitous enough to have worked with one of the best SAP coach educators in the country. One of the FFA curriculum SAP writers, with one appointed from each state. They worked on a a panel with Berger to devise the SAP curriculum. The state TD was excellent too.

When Katholos mentioned Coerver, SAP is like Coerver, but with the element of game sense and learning techniques in match related scenarios.

It is weird how the system works in FFA. I had one SAP coach appointed by FFA, ask me for the contact details of the SAP head coach in my state, from what I'd posted on this forum. He wanted to train under him, yet they are at the same ranking within the FFA organisation. I'm not sure of the all the machinations of the FFA organisation.:-k

I just hope you haven't got one of the slackers operating in your area.

I could send this.

However, there are paid officials who work for FFA, and state branches of FFA, who should be doing this within the parameters of their job description.

If there is a SAP operating, it would/should be under the supervision of a SAP educatorleadership coach from your branch of FFA.

The role is called something like Game Development Manager in a designated FFA area or state.

1v1 Defensive and Attacking skills

First Touch

Running With The Ball

Striking The Ball


These should be given equal weighting in technique from ages 9-13.

A lot of the stuff I've done with the SAP state head coach involves rondos, into three distinct SSGs.

3v1 - this involves the player on the ball constantly having to make an angled pass to the other players in Ball Possession.

4v2 - this manifests as a diamond shape and gives the players in Ball Possession the opportunity of making the killer pass- the one that goes from one side of the diamond to the other and splits the two defenders in Ball Possession Opposition. The BP team can also make the angled passes, and can play right, left and middle.

5v2 or 5v 3 - this involves the diamond with a dot in the possession group. Two off the ball in BPO is easier for an attacking team originally. The KNVB game suggests defensive instructions to the 3 in BPO, but the FFA NC doesn't at lower age levels.

If one uses these SSGs, in the second phase , or Conditioning Games of a four phase coaching plan, the players are constantly playing in diamonds and triangles under defensive pressure. This simulates match conditions.

I cannot see what Peter Katholos is so critical about. It sound alike he struggles to create training ground sessions, because they are too cerebral. At last year's FFA state conference, there is lot more training ground material available to use to devise training ground sessions for coaches, that apply to particular problems identified by coaches that a team is having.

I've sent some diagrams of the above training ground regimes by email to about 20 odd posters on this forum. The state TD at the time was happy for me to do this, but not post them directly on the internet. If anybody treading this is interested, I can send you these rondo/SSGs by email in diagrammatic form.

When the state TD visited Barcelona, they were doing heaps of these three rondos.


I'm just wondering who was taking the SAP sessions you observed, Justafan?


Were they one of the head SAP coaches in your state?

Or were they one of the coaches at a NPL club who've just taken it onboard this year?

Some of the club NPL coaches are having difficulty designing these training ground sessions. They are cerebral and it reminds me of my day job as a teacher. It is like preparing lesson plans for school, but in this case it is for football.

My issue is it appears at this age group in the trials it isjust about running with the ball and taking on players. I am not sure if this is all we should be encouraging when there are other aspects to Skills Acquisition Phase than just that. Or is this all we should be focusing on?

Would it be so hard to send to clubs a summary of this is what we are looking for in the small sided games they are playing each night (my understanding is that it is all SSG only for the trials from other parents who have attended previosuly) something as simple as this:

Day 1 - First touch, we have a smaller pitch looking at first touch to get out of tight situation.
Day 2 - Running with the ball and 1v1, slightly larger pitch looking for these 2 skill sets
Day 3 - Looking at passing, in particular a killer pass and creating options for a pass.

That would at least give the kids the opportunity to show their full skill set in line with the skills acquisition phase.

Should they also not run a session from the FFA NC in full as well rather than just SSG all night? Not sure on the answers just putting it out there.

The theory is great the reality is different.

Interesting comments.

Peter Kat seems to think that former players should be exempt from pursuing coaching licences. Good players don't always make good coaches. The key to a football coach is the ability to communicate. Former players have differing abilities to communicate.

From what I've seen of the SAP it is excellent.

However, if I've ever been unsure of anything, I've had a look at how the state head SAP coach plans and conducts sessions.

Pete K, says there is no manual. SAP is based on eight week cycles. Two weeks of First Touch , two weeks of Running With The Ball, two weeks of 1v1 Attacking and Defensive Skills and two weeks of Striking The Ball. There is a lot of onus on trained coaches planning appropriate sessions.

I've extrapolated SAP sessions for 12 year olds, from the state SAP head coach, and done them with senior players too. The senior players thought they derived value from them.

I'd admit, if I had not had access to the state SAP coach, I could have been struggling. The Academy Sessions thread posted on here filled a few gaps.





Edited by Decentric: 23/10/2014 02:10:58 PM

So in theory yes, but it doesn't seems straight forward to develop with our coaches. Peter Kat. then doesn't have a point from his rant.

I guess its also about continuing to try and improve coach education down to the grassroots as much as possible. I hope the new Belgian TD can still look to make improvements in this crucial area. We have made some great strides in the last few years in youth development but we must look to continue to strive for greater improvement.



Edited by Barca4life: 23/10/2014 01:44:27 PM

Well this bit is straight out the FFA NC Skills Acquisition Phase:

"Since the Skill Games are games in which all the Game Specific Resistances are present (team-mates; opponents; goals; direction; etc) they also provide an ideal opportunity to gradually establish the basic principles of the team tasks during the main moments of the game (e.g. ‘make the field small’ when defending; ‘try to face forward’ when attacking). In other words: the emphasis in the Skill Acquisition Phase is on skill development but this can/should not be separated from developing insight/game understanding at the same time. If this approach is applied properly, it will provide a seamless transition into the game Training phase. "

"Training must remain focused on skill development; it is poor practice and detrimental to the players to sacrifice critical skill training time in order to conduct unnecessary ‘tactical’ coaching. Match Day is when the coach can start developing the players insight and understanding of the basic team and player tasks. This involves reinforcement and elaboration of the basic tasks introduced at training during Skill Games (‘Get between the lines’, ‘Can you face forward?’ ‘Look for the killer pass’, ‘Make the field big’, etc) It is also disadvantageous for young players’ development to specialize for a specific team position too early; let them experience the various positions and aim for specialisation during the Game Training phase (the rationale for this is excellently explained in the book ‘Coaching Outside the Box’ by Mairs and Shaw)."

Actually thats a good question, is developing game sense part of the NC?

He's probably just bitter ;)