What are your thoughts????

Should Indonesia show some leniency and compassion and allow these 2 the opportunity to serve their penalty in Australian jail???

States shouldn't be killing anyone.

Murdering murderers makes the murderers murdering the murders murderers.

This.

It's such an archaic and inhumane punishment, anyone who does't understand why there's such an opposition to these executions is a fucking moron.

Edited by fredsta: 5/3/2015 05:48:25 PM

How about the country who enforces and endorses the practice??

I'm 50/50.

-PB

I'd heard.

Whats the punishment for that in Indonesia these days ?

No government should have the right to take someone's life.

I am of the belief that there are some crimes that deserve the death penalty.

In no particular order:

1. Rapist (In particular, offences committed to children. Anyone who touches a defenseless kid does not deserve to walk this earth)
2. Murder (I am an eye for an eye kind of guy when it comes to murder)
3. Terrorist's

There should also be mandatory life sentences for the following:

1. Manslaughter
2. Drug Dealing/Trafficking
3. Kidnapping

Sentencing in Australia is way too soft for my liking.

100/0 I believe.

-PB

That might sound semi-plausible (to some) until you execute someone who turns out later to be innocent.

There are few acts more despicable on this planet than "state sanctioned" killing. Shameful.

It's not a proper argument for the death penalty if it doesn't have an incorrectly used apostrophe.

The most hilarious thing is how they had hundreds of soldiers with armoured vehicles around the prisoners, and fighter jets buzzing the journalists covering the story. Not even pretending that this isn't a petulant, reactionary act of nationalism designed to strengthen a new President's domestic political base. Fucking childish.

No ones raised it yet so, what are people's thoughts on the fact the AFP tipped the Indonesian authorities off when they could have arrested them when they got back here?

I disagree with execution, McJules hit the nail on the head.

However, they knew the punishment and now every bleeding heart is bitching and moaning for leniency saying 'they're rehabilitated.' They probably are, but the punishment isn't for rehabilitation, it's punishment for a crime committed.

Should they die, no. Do they deserve to die? Probably not. Am I sympathetic. No. They knew what they were doing and took made a high stakes gamble which didn't pay off.

9 less tax dependents?

I believe that their actions may be actionable, knowing that Indonesia carries the death penalty.

I hope that whoever was responsible gets raked over the coals big time.

There are many instances around the world where the punishment does not fit the crime.

Some examples would be:

Women being stoned for adultery
Iran publicly hanging homosexuals
drug smugglers being shot

We also have a very primitive view of how bad a crime drug smuggling is. Drug smuggling is a victimless crime. Drug addicts are responsible for their own drug use and addiction. It is a complete fallacy to suggest that smugglers are "responsible for the deaths of drug addicts"

Its akin to suggesting that an insider trader is responsible for the suicide of one of their "victims." Drug smuggling is about as bad a crime as insider trading.

Now, before everyone loses their mind, its so bleedingly obvious that drug problems in society are not created by drug dealers and drug smugglers but instead are created by social problems such as child abuse, neglect, personality disorders, poverty, disadvantage etc. Maybe Indonesia needs to be educated as to what the real cause of drug problems are.

Also, Joko Widodo is such a complete imbecile. Surely he should recognise that it would be a good idea to keep Australia on side rather than this sideshow that this execution is becoming and a show of pathetic nationalism.

There should be a royal commission.

Agree with all of this.

I have always thought that rotting away in a cell for the rest of your life would be a far greater penalty than death. When you think about it, the death penalty is more of a punishment for the friends and family of the criminal than it is for the criminal themselves.

I'm pretty certain anything our government could have done would have been futile but some of the chest beating from elected officials here probably hasn't helped and has helped Widodo domestically.

What do you expect? The majority of Indonesians are dumb island peasants.

Their laws are still their laws and were known to the Bali 9 before they were caught.

If people don't like Indonesian law, it's best not to break it.

In Australia we also have laws but the other way around. Where wilfully stupid crimes like burglary are met with fines/suspended sentences.

In Iran homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. Adultery is also a crime punishable by death in Somalia and other countries. In North korea, your family will be captured and sent to evil labour camps if you leave the country. Some countries laws are so unacceptable that I don't respect them.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Indonesia are planning on executing a man who is currently psychotic secondary to schizophrenia. He is unable to grasp what is about to happen to him. If this is true, this has to be one of the most ghastly, unforgivable acts imaginable.

They probably think some of ours are too (not that I disagree with your examples).

However, does our contempt for their laws mean these two should be excused from being punished by the laws of the land?

I mean if I was a gay man i'd stay away from Uganda et al. If I was a drug smuggler i'd stay away from Singapore/Thailand/Malaysia/Indonesia. It's really not rocket science. Yet our idiot politicians are holding candlelight vigils for these guys.

Does being a gay in Uganda provide you with financial opportunity?

Can you be roped into being a gay by coercion and manipulation?

Stop making stupid comparisons that make you look fucking retarded.

I disagree with the notion that the prison system is there to solely punish those who commit crimes, (yes they must pay their debt to society) but prisons should be seen as a tool that deters others from committing crimes, to rehabilitate offenders and in cases where rehabilitation is not possible the removal of individuals who are a danger to our society.

Yes these men were incredibly stupid and even if they weren't 'rehabilitated' they shouldn't be executed, as others have said no State should have the right to take someone's life. It saddens me that we are even having this discussion in 2015.

The death penalty is always a touchy subject so I'll try and ask this as carefully as possible.

Would the Australian publics reaction to this be different if the person invovled was an Australian convicted of the rape and murder of a child in America?

Yes. Though they would be wrong. A child raping priest has as much right to his life than you or I.

Wasn't the death penalty only recently re-introduced for drug related offences?

-PB

Yep lol, if anything the Death penalty just drives up the price of the product due to risk factors :lol:

-PB

The reason why this is generating such an intense public reaction is because:

1. The death penalty is wrong on principal
2. The men have successfully been rehabilitated
3. Their crime was minor in comparison.

For the hypothetical you suggested above, only number 1 would apply and so the reaction would be less intense, but we should still oppose it.

There is an Australian man who has recently been arrested in the Philippines who is charged with torturing and killing small children and running an internet child porn ring. Some in the Philippines are calling for the death penalty to be re-instated.

I'm sorry but someone who does that shit has not right to walk anywhere on this earth even in a prison.

Its hard to think of a worse crime, but a principle is a principle. He'll probably get killed in jail anyway.

Definitely not a black and white situation..

I am against the death penalty for the most part (extreme acts such as serial killing is open to debate for me) however a few things at play here.

1. What were the legal obligations of the AFP to tip Indonesia off about this? I would assume as soon as they found out they would have had to raise the issue. Knowing Indonesia's general disdain for drugs this would have been a priority issue that Indonesia would not have taken the news lightly if Australia allowed drug smugglers to successfully leave.
2. The entire Bali 9 knew what they were doing and knew what the penalty was. In the eye of the law, ignorance does not hold up very well.
3. The ringleaders have been held for 10 years and appear to have contributed to rehab programs. These guys that were 23 and 20 when committing the crime, are now 33 and 30. Plenty of time to mature. For all of this to go to waste is at best a shame.
4. Widodo is definitely no Bambang, and his hard-line stance against drugs can be seen as both a follow through on ensuring smugglers are deterred against going through Indonesia and flexing his muscle to the world. Though it may work, the reaction will be very interesting to follow.

I am going to say my view is "it's an unfortunate situation that for better or worse I hope is resolved soon"

I can sleep well knowing you've delegated to yourself the task of deciding who deserves to live or not.

I have less sympathy for these guys because they were the ringleaders of the op. Age and ignorance is no excuse. Apparently they had smuggled drugs numerous times from Indonesia so this was definitely not a one off mind snap, they were part of an international drug syndicate importing large quantities of the most devastating addictive drug of all; heroin.

Not sure if they "deserve" death but can't blame Indonesia for putting them to death when they knew exactly what the law was and they through their own choices and actions walked straight into the fire. It's great they've rehabilitated themselves but even mass murderers can theoretically rehabilitate, it doesn't mean that justice still shouldn't be done.

Funny how in countries who practice the religion of peace there seems to be a lot of killing going down.....kill them if they are gay..kill them if they are adulterers. ...kill them if they are blasphemors. .....kill them if the don't agree with my beliefs.......probably the best thing is to kill them for being uneducated and ignorant....

None of these things apply to Indonesia.

Perhaps not specifically ....but the general theme of capital punishment being acceptable is

Sleep with another man's wife? Kill them
Have oral or anal sex? Kill them
Be a married woman and don't cry out when being raped? Kill her
Not a virgin at the time of her wedding? Kill her
Accused of practising magic? Kill them
Kidnap someone? Kill them
Worship another deity? Kill them
Curse your deity, or take your deity's name in vain? Kill them
Curse a parent? Kill them

It's sure a shame all those white Christians weren't culled for being uneducated and ignorant a millennia or so ago, isn't it.

Drawing a long bow to bring Islam into the picture.

There are plenty of non-Islamic states that retain the death penalty for crime. USA, Japan, China, India, Thailand and Vietnam for example.

Also quite funny how Indonesia are strong advocates against capital punishment of their own citizens in foreign countries

The death penalty is an archaic and ineffective form of punishment, and is believed to escalate crimes rather than prevent them ("I'm going to get killed if I get caught, so I might as well kill the victim of my crime so I'm less likely to get caught. It's not like the punishment could be any different." )

It's irreversible and only serves as a vehicle for revenge (it costs more on average to execute a prisoner in the US than it does to keep them in prison for life, so it's of no financial benefit.)

Regardless of the severity of the crime, capital punishment has no place in modern society. Sadly when some of the most powerful nations in the world practice it, it's difficult to convince smaller nations that it isn't right.

Edited by Scoll: 6/3/2015 01:10:06 PM

You could say the same thing about jail couldn't you (I'm going to go to jail if I get caught, so I might as well kill the victim of my crime so I'm less likely to get caught"). Should be ban jail as an archaic and ineffective form of punishment? Is really denying one's freedom and socialising them with other like minded crooks the best way to rehabilitate them?



I don't know why some people are so outraged by the state for killing the guilty, and apparently less so when the guilty kills an innocent. May be because as the state is elected by the public, the public feels implicated in the killing of an individual, and naturally this causes people distress. Capital punishment should be used sparingly and only in response to the most heinous crime, such as first degree premeditated murder. Although it may not deter crime, it is the fitting punishment for heinous crimes where punishments like life sentences don't deliver the right amount of justice for the victims and their families. When someone takes a life and all that's taken away is their freedom that's not doing justice.

If nothing else can convince, I really find murderers and such fascinating. Keep the bastards alive and just study them.

Because what compels someone to kill another human is something that needs to be minimalised.

Bzzt, nope. Jail terms have varying degrees of severity. Death has one degree. "I'm going to jail for 2-5 years" is nowhere near on par with "I'm going to jail for the rest of my life". The prison system is heavily flawed, particularly in the US, but it reforms far more people than executions do.


How about people are against anyone killing anybody? Being a state power shouldn't give you any power over life and death within the state above that of a citizen. Plus being adjudged guilty doesn't mean the verdict was correct. The state, as with individuals, is fallible.

Your "equitable justice" argument is bullshit too, give up your freedom and see how you enjoy being confined for the rest of your life. Death is a straight up end of consciousness which is hardly equitable to what the families of victims will suffer through the rest of their lives. If anything, proponents of equitable justice should be all about prolonging the suffering of offenders.

Your armchair psychology is patently flawed, but I'm hardly surprised.

Edited by Scoll: 6/3/2015 03:18:30 PM

Heaven forbid that we expect the state to be a model citizen and therefore be better than a criminal that commits murder :roll:

The recidivism rate in the US is about 70%, it actually churns more criminals back into society than it does reform people. I can totally see the logic of getting free food, free accommodation and hanging out with crooks all day being conducive to rehabilitation. Why would a death sentence be more of an incentive to commit a murder than life imprisonment, with possibly parole in x years? If already facing a lengthy jail term taking a punt on killing the victim in order to avoid capture may be more incentive than the marginal "escalation" to their sentence if they get convicted of murder.



I'm confused by the mix messages you're sending. On one hand you argue the state is fallible and wrongly executes people, on the other hand you argue prison is a worse sentence than death. Why then if the state is fallible is it OK to burden potentially innocent people to prolonged suffering and anguish (no doubt magnified by their innocence) but not mere straight up painless end of consciousness? If indeed jail is the worse punishment, wouldn't death be more humane?

If you're against anybody killing anybody, are you against going to war too? You have to be absolute about these sorts of things rather than cherry picking your morality. I'm against killing too but some crimes are so heinous, do depraved, the only reasonable, fair punishment is death. Call it retribution, revenge, eye for an eye, whatever you want, but life imprisonment is a soft, weak sentence for someone who commits multiple murder or rapes and kills and child. They might not get their "freedom" but they can still do more than a dead child can; play pool, get an education, breathe oxygen, eat, drink, reminisce, watch tv, hope for release some day. Life, even behind bars, is better than death, and so life granted can't be considered equitable when life is taken.

The difference is the murderer is guilty while their victim isn't

Its not that cut and dry rusty.

TLDR not sure if anyone has mentioned that the most severe form of punishment in any culture/time period is life in isolation, not exile not death but locking someone in a room and throwing the key away
Its a very grey area calling isolation imprisonment humane but a death sentence inhumane

^ this . Hell some people in jail in america who have been in long term isolation and end up getting realeased end up in the mental ward of hospitals as being isolated has made them a shell of themselves

Revenge or retribution as a motivation for punishment is very bad.

The role of the prison system is to protect the public first, to rehabilitate the offender second and to act as a deterrent third.

Free west papau?

Justice is just a more palatable way of saying revenge.

Thats not justice. The death penalty is a travisty. It doesnt deter anything. It doesnt bring back the love ones who got murdered .

I'd favour life in solitary perhaps even above death for the absolute worst offenders, how anyone can argue that someone who deliberately takes away the life of another person isn't worthy of being locked in small box for the rest of their life.

Neither does prison. Death penalty is fair call for some heinous, reprehensible crimes. Prison is a travesty for those who willingly commit murders. Their victims and families destroyed while they get to live it up on prison being "rehabilitated " by playing pool, poker and watching tele, looking forward to their parole date. Is that fair?

No it isn't, which is why capital punishment should be left open for discussion in Australia, rather than ruling a line through it completely.

trust me on this . I dont want the death penalty . It is not justice at all. Hell would I want the death penalty on the person who murdered my father ? No I dont as that wont bring him back. Also I stopped reading when you said pool and tv. Never ever belive what you read or hear.

What about the stuff you see on Tv? If someone murdered someone in my family I wouldn't want them to have the privilege of breathing. It's not like an angry grrrrr kind of revenge, with lynch mobs and electric chairs, it's just about bringing a kind of closure and a sense that justice was achieved.

I'm glad you got an audience for your rubbish. Revel in it.

again dont belive everything you read or see or hear . Prison isnt like that at all . Also I dont want you to ever feel the pain and suffering I have to deal with from someone you hold dearly getting taken away from you heniously. The death penalty wont ever bring your love one back. The murderers family will also lose someone they love.

This takes the cake for the most moronic thing i've ever seen.

It is in our country and many others. I wonder what the official stance from Indonesia is. My thoughts are that they see the death penalty as a deterrent.

If there is a philosophical aspect to this whole story

That is the ring leaders have been extending their lives purely by constantly appealing

Its not the way to go, but the situation of appealing just to live longer is an interesting insight into the human condition / experience

Granted, the death penalty is a rather barbarous concept in this day and age, but still...

ps - Its odd how a website like news.com.au glorify criminals / criminality - ie hot guy mugshot :-k

Either way at the end of this it will be interesting to see how the drug trade goes in Indonesia

I think that this circus is showing contempt for the lives of these two blokes.

death penalty is harsh yes....but had they not being caught the question needs to be asked would they still be doing what they did before they were caught ?...i seriously doubt it

That's the point of rehabilitation. To reform criminals such that they can return and contribute to society.

Fortunately in Civilisation justice is meted out by an independent system based on written law, and not by the victim's family, so the point is moot.

Has there been discussion in this thread yet about the two Indonesian murderers on death row in Saudi Arabia? One got executed the other day and they kicked up a stink.

Well, they shot them.

Looking forward to the news in the morning that Indonesia's drug problem is 100% solved.

Their drug problem is probably about as good as their foreign policy with Australia.

I dont condone what those two did. But an eye for a eye doesnt solve anything. I abhor the death penalty as it doesnt solve anything . Hell as a son who lost my father to murder I feel even more convinced that the death penalty should he abolished. It scares me to think that they are some people who think death will help stopping the problem when in fact the opposite occurs.

Death penalty for drug trafficking is ludicrous but these guys must have known the risk.

You can't visit a foreign country and shit over their system regardless of how retarded it might be. I feel for their families, they have to live with the pain for the rest of their lives.

Well there you go all done and dusted as of early this morning..........

Don't know so much about indo law but surely this is linked to their faith?

I disagree with the thinking that they should have not been killed because they were Australian. This would have been a mess for cases in the future. They have carried out the punishment for the crime in that country.

meanwhile indo are appealing for withdrawal of the death penalty applied to their own citizens in other countries.

the games governments play with peoples lives...

Yeh, thats what Apu said on the Simpsons, when Marge got sent off to prison for shoplifting; before Snake drove off with the Kwik E Mart on the back of a truck :-k

Drug smuggling, just like life, will go on

Just without the two smugglers; there'll even be an AFL Grand final this year

But seriously, in the long run this will prove the death penalty will not deter drug smuggling, it also proves that its the big wheels in the business of the drug trade run the show, whereas the smugglers (that get caught) cop the blame

Heroin kills yet so many people take it everyday.
Drug smugglers in some countries get the death sentence, yet everyday there are new drug smugglers.

Very sad day.

And people should smuggle drugs. Just because one shouldn't doesn't mean one will not.

Unfortunately for the families of the now deceased, they only have their love one to blame. Everyone knows what the penalty in Indonesia for drug smuggling related crimes yet they went ahead with their illegal actions.

And yet drugs can/do kill more people then say a spouse killing ones spouse in a fit of rage.

Edited by BrisbaneBhoy: 29/4/2015 09:26:22 AM

Nicely put. Pretty much my take on the whole thing. Especially your last sentence.

If I was given the choice of spending the rest of my life behind bars or the death penalty, I would chose death (I would like to think I would choose that way anyways).

People inject their own drugs and are therefore responsible for their own deaths. I think the sentencing for violent crimes like pedophilia, rape and murder is too lenient in Australia (Adrian Bailey who had raped several times before killing Jill Meagher is a good example) but drug smuggling/trafficking is a non-violent crime and these crimes do not require life sentences. Drugs in society are a social and health problem, not a criminal one. The way you deal with drug problems is through harm minimisation strategies and education and social support services. These measures are not "sexy" though. They don't make the population's "dick's hard" like lining up 9 people and shooting them in the middle of the night.

As Pala said, good to see Indonesia's drug problem fixed literally overnight. Congratulations.

Meanwhile, they executed a man who suffers from schizophrenia and who may not have truly understood what was happening to him. A truly abhorrent act.

looks like "P3do" has been censored in my above post. Hopefully people understand what I was trying to write! Not just philia. lol

I guess the words Seb Ryall is off limits too:lol:

I respect and agree with most of your post, especially regarding drugs being "a social and health problem", though I humbly disagree with you on the "not a criminal one".

As for whether drug smuggling/trafficking is/should be classed as non violent or not? The act in itself is not violent one can easily argue. That said, it isn't an act that acts on its own. There are so many other players involved from gang wars, political & rival assassinations, drug dependency/abuse, drug related deaths etc, etc, etc that it can't be an action taken with the narrow view of a crime on its own.

Now as to whether or not people should be killed for crimes (whatever the crime is) isn't my call. If a state has the rule in place for said crime then be wise and not commit said crime. It really is that simple. If you do choose to do the crime and end up getting caught, then you (and unfortunately your family/loved ones) only have you to blame.

[youtube]GhCNBsoLkjE[/youtube]

^ The end ?

never understood why this word is banned on most forums.
its not like the actual offenders are going to be using that as a search term.

not being allowed to use to the word actually protects them from being called out.

anyway, off topic, carry on...

Edited by ricecrackers: 29/4/2015 04:03:55 PM

A barbaric act that has achieved nothing, well done Widodo.

Portugal is a great example of how a managed decriminalisation of drugs can lead to far better outcomes for society than costly legal processes and/or capital punishment/imprisonment under criminal law. This coupled with shifting the problem from the Justice System to the Ministry of Health as well as raising the overall welfare systems are proven tools for tackling drug problems.

However, it takes a leader and government with a lot of foresight to be able to implement such a solution.