trident
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More shocking gun violence manifests itself in the most disturbing way possible - live on television. Quote:TV anchor Kimberly McBroom stunned in seconds after Virginia on-air shooting Date August 27, 2015 - 10:44AM Megan Levy Vester Flanagan, also known as TV reporter Bryce Wiliams, wrote in a manifesto that it was the Charleston shooting massacre that ultimately drove him to fire upon two of his former colleagues. The stunned expression on the face of television anchor Kimberly McBroom summed up the sheer disbelief surrounding what appeared to have just played out during the live breakfast broadcast. Amid the sounds of screams and gunfire ringing out, Virginia station WDBJ7-TV quickly switched its live television feed back to the studio at 6.45am on Wednesday, local time, where McBroom was trying to make sense of what had just occurred. At first wide-eyed and open-mouthed, McBroom quickly regained her composure to tell viewers she would find out what had happened. "OK, not sure what happened there," McBroom said, remarkably calmly. "We will of course let you know as soon as we find out what those sounds were from." Soon, station general manager Jeff Marks went on air to deliver the distressing news: reporter Alison Parker, 24, and cameraman Adam Ward, 27, had been shot dead during their live report from a shopping centre district near Moneta in Virginia. "It is my very, very sad duty to report that we have determined through the police and our own employees that Alison and Adam died this morning," Marks said. "Our hearts are broken." An estimated 40,000 people were tuned in to the station when the on-air shootings took place, according to US news reports. The person Parker was interviewing, Vicki Gardner, executive director of the Smith Mountain Lake Regional Chamber of Commerce, was shot in the back and has since undergone surgery. The shooter, Vester Flanagan, died in hospital as result of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He had shot himself while being pursued by police, authorities said. Marks also appeared in a noon broadcast, when Flanagan was still clinging to life in hospital. "I'm going to step out of my role as a former journalist and say I'm not sure if I want him to live or die," Marks said during the broadcast. "If he dies, he took the coward's way out." Later, McBroom expressed her grief on social media following the deaths of her colleagues. Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/tv-anchor-kimberly-mcbroom-stunned-in-seconds-after-virginia-onair-shooting-20150826-gj8pv9.html#ixzz3jys6xQe2 Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook
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paulbagzFC
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Black, gay and gun violence. Media will have an absolute feast. -PB
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trident
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paulbagzFC wrote:Black, gay and gun violence.
Media will have an absolute feast.
-PB They can be merciless at times. What matters here is two lives have been lost and once again gun violence is the culprit in the USA.
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Slobodan Drauposevic
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muh freedum
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trident
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Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles.
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Muz
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And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain.
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salmonfc
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trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. This dude claimed that he was racially discriminated against, but it's clear that he's a fucking nutcase. He confessed to killing his cats in his manifesto (in fact, writing a manifesto before doing something like this to somehow justify yourself is crazy in and of itself), he was reported to human resources for anger issues or something by a co-worker and when he was fired, all the employees had to stay in a room while he was escorted out by police officers, he justified these shootings by saying it was for the victims of the massacre at the black church and above all he murdered two innocent people and wounded a third in broad daylight on live TV because he was fired by the journalists' new station two years ago, recorded the shooting with a chest mounted camera, uploaded it to social media and then killed himself. One of the worst things about this is the two victims were dating people who worked with them and one of their partner's was in the control room watching the live feed when he was murdered. Not only is it sickening that pro and anti gun activists haven't even waited for the bodies to go cold to start debating again, it's pointless. The NRA has shown that they're willing to deal with thirty children being slaughtered just before Christmas by a psychopath who has just committed matricide, what the hell will two more deaths do, televised or not?
For the first time, but certainly not the last, I began to believe that Arsenals moods and fortunes somehow reflected my own. - Hornby
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Timmo
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The one main thing I hated about america especially in the south.
Went to Arkansas for a month a couple of years ago to visit my dear late fiance and couldn't believe my eyes that you would have a bank right next to a gun shop. Didn't even feel comfortable walking a sidewalk for about a block wondering if something would happy to me. This was around the time the Australian Baseballer was murdered in Oklahoma by a senseless drive-by.
If only Americans were this passionate about universal Healthcare as they are about the 2nd amendment.
2 people senselessly murdered.
Another debate on gun control that will lead to nowhere.
Repeat cycle.
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trident
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salmonfc wrote:trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. This dude claimed that he was racially discriminated against, but it's clear that he's a fucking nutcase. He confessed to killing his cats in his manifesto (in fact, writing a manifesto before doing something like this to somehow justify yourself is crazy in and of itself), he was reported to human resources for anger issues or something by a co-worker and when he was fired, all the employees had to stay in a room while he was escorted out by police officers, he justified these shootings by saying it was for the victims of the massacre at the black church and above all he murdered two innocent people and wounded a third in broad daylight on live TV because he was fired by the journalists' new station two years ago, recorded the shooting with a chest mounted camera, uploaded it to social media and then killed himself. One of the worst things about this is the two victims were dating people who worked with them and one of their partner's was in the control room watching the live feed when he was murdered. Not only is it sickening that pro and anti gun activists haven't even waited for the bodies to go cold to start debating again, it's pointless. The NRA has shown that they're willing to deal with thirty children being slaughtered just before Christmas by a psychopath who has just committed matricide, what the hell will two more deaths do, televised or not? He's a perfect illustration for universal background checks. Databasing someone like this with all those warning signs would go a long way to stop crazy people from owning guns and committing these acts. It also helps ensure they receive the proper care and medications they require . Of course this is not foolproof but every little piece of progression helps toward the goal.
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rusty
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trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. Yeah sure it was the republicans fault this happened. A black gay man could never be accountable for murdering people.
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Heineken
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Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. In before Paulbagz. :lol: 8-[
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!

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Glory Recruit
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Just saw the videos, pretty fucked up.
R.I.P.
Edited by iridium1010: 27/8/2015 03:02:48 PM
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trident
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Some batshit crazy nutjobs on twitter claiming it was a false flag. :oops: Are these people for real or just trolls? Do they have any idea how stupid they sound? This law of the jungle internet seems to encourage sad lonely people to express their sad lonely opinions out loud to the world.
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Muz
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Heineken wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. In before Paulbagz. :lol: 8-[ Good things come to those who wait.
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Buggalugs - you should...
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rusty wrote: A black gay man could never be accountable for murdering people. How about a white legless athlete ?
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lukerobinho
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trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. Yeah this all white peoples fault again :lol:
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lukerobinho
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Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic
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salmonfc
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trident wrote:salmonfc wrote:trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. This dude claimed that he was racially discriminated against, but it's clear that he's a fucking nutcase. He confessed to killing his cats in his manifesto (in fact, writing a manifesto before doing something like this to somehow justify yourself is crazy in and of itself), he was reported to human resources for anger issues or something by a co-worker and when he was fired, all the employees had to stay in a room while he was escorted out by police officers, he justified these shootings by saying it was for the victims of the massacre at the black church and above all he murdered two innocent people and wounded a third in broad daylight on live TV because he was fired by the journalists' new station two years ago, recorded the shooting with a chest mounted camera, uploaded it to social media and then killed himself. One of the worst things about this is the two victims were dating people who worked with them and one of their partner's was in the control room watching the live feed when he was murdered. Not only is it sickening that pro and anti gun activists haven't even waited for the bodies to go cold to start debating again, it's pointless. The NRA has shown that they're willing to deal with thirty children being slaughtered just before Christmas by a psychopath who has just committed matricide, what the hell will two more deaths do, televised or not? He's a perfect illustration for universal background checks. Databasing someone like this with all those warning signs would go a long way to stop crazy people from owning guns and committing these acts. It also helps ensure they receive the proper care and medications they require . Of course this is not foolproof but every little piece of progression helps toward the goal. I reckon that people wishing to own a gun in the U.S should also have to provide the contact details of several family members or close friends who would be able to say whether or not the person should be allowed to own a gun.
For the first time, but certainly not the last, I began to believe that Arsenals moods and fortunes somehow reflected my own. - Hornby
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lukerobinho
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salmonfc wrote:trident wrote:salmonfc wrote:trident wrote:Institutionalised racial and gender discrimination plus wild west gun laws and this is the result. This is not hard to understand but what is impossible to fathom is how the redneck republican right continue to allow this to happen with their outdated ideological principles. This dude claimed that he was racially discriminated against, but it's clear that he's a fucking nutcase. He confessed to killing his cats in his manifesto (in fact, writing a manifesto before doing something like this to somehow justify yourself is crazy in and of itself), he was reported to human resources for anger issues or something by a co-worker and when he was fired, all the employees had to stay in a room while he was escorted out by police officers, he justified these shootings by saying it was for the victims of the massacre at the black church and above all he murdered two innocent people and wounded a third in broad daylight on live TV because he was fired by the journalists' new station two years ago, recorded the shooting with a chest mounted camera, uploaded it to social media and then killed himself. One of the worst things about this is the two victims were dating people who worked with them and one of their partner's was in the control room watching the live feed when he was murdered. Not only is it sickening that pro and anti gun activists haven't even waited for the bodies to go cold to start debating again, it's pointless. The NRA has shown that they're willing to deal with thirty children being slaughtered just before Christmas by a psychopath who has just committed matricide, what the hell will two more deaths do, televised or not? He's a perfect illustration for universal background checks. Databasing someone like this with all those warning signs would go a long way to stop crazy people from owning guns and committing these acts. It also helps ensure they receive the proper care and medications they require . Of course this is not foolproof but every little piece of progression helps toward the goal. I reckon that people wishing to own a gun in the U.S should also have to provide the contact details of several family members or close friends who would be able to say whether or not the person should be allowed to own a gun. That would immediately infringe on a constitutional right. Not even Australia is that strict
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sydneyfc1987
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Draupnir wrote:muh freedum Freedom to get shot in the face by a maniac that in our country wouldn't have such easy access to a firearm.
(VAR) IS NAVY BLUE
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Muz
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lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic It's a risk management strategy Einstein. Because of fuckwits in society I have to drink out of a plastic schooner glass after 9pm in the pub. Because of fuckwits in society an Australian can't own an AK47. It's hardly an intellectual stretch to see the logic behind the ban.
Member since 2008.
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SlyGoat36
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If Alison Parker or Adam Ward had a gun this would not have happened - pro gun logic -_-
RIP.
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Glenn - A-league Mad
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SlyGoat36 wrote:If Alison Parker or Adam Ward had a gun this would not have happened - pro gun logic -_-
RIP.
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AzzaMarch
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Whilst these massacres grab the headlines (understandably), they actually aren't even the biggest risk when it comes to gun deaths. Its the massive amount of murders that occur between families, neighbours, suicides etc that account for the higher US murder rate.
Quite simply, when domestic or neighbourly arguments escalate, easy access to guns means people die instead of getting punched or stabbed.
The US "freedom" argument has always seemed silly to me - what about the freedom to be safe?
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trident
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AzzaMarch wrote:Whilst these massacres grab the headlines (understandably), they actually aren't even the biggest risk when it comes to gun deaths. Its the massive amount of murders that occur between families, neighbours, suicides etc that account for the higher US murder rate.
Quite simply, when domestic or neighbourly arguments escalate, easy access to guns means people die instead of getting punched or stabbed.
The US "freedom" argument has always seemed silly to me - what about the [size=7]freedom to be safe[/size]? =d>
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T-UNIT
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Iridium1010 wrote:Just saw the videos, pretty fucked up.
R.I.P.
Edited by iridium1010: 27/8/2015 03:02:48 PM Where did you see the videos?
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Glory Recruit
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T-UNIT wrote:Iridium1010 wrote:Just saw the videos, pretty fucked up.
R.I.P.
Edited by iridium1010: 27/8/2015 03:02:48 PM Where did you see the videos? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a3_1440596173http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
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Heineken
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Ii'm just going to leave this here. Jim Jefferies, nail on fucking head. Worth a watch. Good laugh too. [youtube]2lP1ocnwpN8[/youtube]
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!

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T-UNIT
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I thought the shooter was a black guy? The guy in the video has white hands ffs.
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Don't even fucking start. Out of your depth. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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Heineken wrote:Ii'm just going to leave this here. Jim Jefferies, nail on fucking head. Worth a watch. Good laugh too. [youtube]2lP1ocnwpN8[/youtube] This always gets brought up now days and most of the shit he says about Australia is so horribly incorrect and factually wrong. A stupid video to ever bring up in regards to this stuff. And having a CCW license wouldn't have helped those two, that much is obvious, guy basically crept up on them, they had no chance. -PB
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Glory Recruit
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GloryPerth
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Timmo wrote: The one main thing I hated about america especially in the south.
Went to Arkansas for a month a couple of years ago to visit my dear late fiance and couldn't believe my eyes that you would have a bank right next to a gun shop. Didn't even feel comfortable walking a sidewalk for about a block wondering if something would happy to me. This was around the time the Australian Baseballer was murdered in Oklahoma by a senseless drive-by.
If only Americans were this passionate about universal Healthcare as they are about the 2nd amendment.
2 people senselessly murdered.
Another debate on gun control that will lead to nowhere.
Repeat cycle.
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T-UNIT
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Well OK then. Carry on. :-"
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Don't even fucking start. Out of your depth. -PB Touch a nerve there fella?
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Don't even fucking start. Out of your depth. -PB Touch a nerve there fella? Of course, anybody with half an involvement with firearms in Australia knows how much the whole Adler situation is a load of shit. -PB
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Condemned666
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Its just like that Jake Gyllenhaal movie Nightcrawler, somewhat...
Edited by condemned666: 27/8/2015 09:27:07 PM
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Benjamin
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lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon.
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Eastern Glory
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America officially said they don't care after nothing was done when 20 children were killed.
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lukerobinho
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Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right
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Carlito
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lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right Who in their right mind has a semi auto for pest control?
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paulbagzFC
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right Who in their right mind has a semi auto for pest control? Professional pest controllers. Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos. -PB
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trident
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there must be some big termites about
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Carlito
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paulbagzFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right Who in their right mind has a semi auto for pest control? Professional pest controllers. Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos. -PB An fair enough, but dont think lukey boy was refering to professional pest controllers
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paulbagzFC
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right Who in their right mind has a semi auto for pest control? Professional pest controllers. Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos. -PB An fair enough, but dont think lukey boy was refering to professional pest controllers He was. If you've ever gone hunting with a bolt action you will see why semi-autos are incredibly helpful. -PB
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:
Professional pest controllers.
Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos.
-PB
And what class license would those blokes hold PB?
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Slobodan Drauposevic
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FMD you right wing blokes have some of the best examples of cognitive dissonance. The lack of the ability to use logic AT ALL and the penchant for making analogies that make absolutely no fucking sense is hilarious. I just feel sorry for any potential children you'll have in the future. You're so fucking backwards it hurts my head.
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Eastern Glory
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Hate to do this, but Jim Jefferies made a great point when he said that in regards to gun control, society has to adapt to its slowest members.
I fucking hate guns. The only thing thing guns are good for, is ending reality TV junkies.
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Heineken
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trident wrote:there must be some big termites about They're not talking about cockroaches, termites or the sorts of snakes and spiders that can kill a couple thousand people with a drop or two of venom (although if you'd come across those, you'd probably want a fully automatic AR-15, and a couple hand grenades for good measure! :lol: ). Things like Wild Pigs, and Wild Dogs, plenty of introduced species running amock out in the outback causing havoc to the natural fauna and flora. Pretty much the only way you can get a semi-automatic AK/AR rifle is if you're one of those. And it's incredibly difficult to acquire a license for one. Heck, it's hard enough to get just the most basic firearms license for a .22 or something.
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!

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melbourne_terrace
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The Americans who are so nutjob on there stupid gun rights won't allow anything to change until it's there own children who get mowed down. No civilian needs a fucking automatic weapon without at the very least showing cause.
Viennese Vuck
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:
Professional pest controllers.
Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos.
-PB
And what class license would those blokes hold PB? C and D which you can only get by being a professional. The Adler was always going to be a Cat B until some Greens secretary got their knickers in a knot. -PB
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quickflick
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lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right It's a constitutional right because in 1791, when there was a greater degree of lawlessness and there was no proper police force, it was necessary that individuals should be able to bear arms to protect themselves. There's a profound and excellent dimension of US politics insofar as individual rights are protected. In 1791, the best way of protecting the individual's rights was to permit the individual to bear arms. Today however, there is proper law enforcement in the US (well, allegedly). There were any number of rights which people exercised in Britain in hundreds of years ago which either no longer exist (because they are no longer necessary) or custom dictates that they no longer demanded. In fact, it's often the latter. Britain still has the death penalty for high treason. However, this would never be enforced. I gather that, strictly speaking, in the UK an expectant mother has the right to urinate in a policeman's helmet. Would this ever happen? No. This says a lot about the States and its curious political nuances. They still interpret rights which are no longer necessary (in fact downright dangerous) literally and demand those rights. It speaks of the emphasis on individual rights, the inability to deal with unnecessary/dangerous rights in today's society, the entrenched right-wing politics and the sheer stupidity of a large proportion of the society. Edited by quickflick: 28/8/2015 03:28:55 AM
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paulbagzFC
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While sweeping change will never happen thanks to the 2nd amendment, what they really do need is a uniform and better system in place like in Australia for actually getting these things. Of course they will jump up and down and scream blur murder about their rights, but the fact is it isn't changing their right to bear arms, just their ability to obtain them so easily. Being able to walk into a shot show and pay cash for a weapon and not have to do any paperwork or any background checks is just retarded. -PB
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Carlito
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paulbagzFC wrote:While sweeping change will never happen thanks to the 2nd amendment, what they really do need is a uniform and better system in place like in Australia for actually getting these things.
Of course they will jump up and down and scream blur murder about their rights, but the fact is it isn't changing their right to bear arms, just their ability to obtain them so easily.
Being able to walk into a shot show and pay cash for a weapon and not have to do any paperwork or any background checks is just retarded.
-PB Didnt obama try to pass legislation to get back ground checks done but was shot down by the republicans and the nra campaigning saying it infringed their rights ? Nothing will change over in the U.s
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AzzaMarch
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Even the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is controversial in its wording. The Supreme Court definitively ruled that it applied to individuals.
But the historical context is that it likely was making reference to state militias as "the people", rather than individuals.
I always laugh at the "we need guns to defend against tyrannical govt" line... So you and your mates are going to be able to stave off a military armed with tanks, drones, missiles, NUCLEAR BOMBS etc...
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:
Professional pest controllers.
Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos.
-PB
And what class license would those blokes hold PB? C and D which you can only get by being a professional. The Adler was always going to be a Cat B until some Greens secretary got their knickers in a knot. -PB No. It was going to be category A. The widest and easiest to get license category in Australia. 7000 were pre ordered even before they got to Australia. 7000 !
Member since 2008.
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paulbagzFC
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:While sweeping change will never happen thanks to the 2nd amendment, what they really do need is a uniform and better system in place like in Australia for actually getting these things.
Of course they will jump up and down and scream blur murder about their rights, but the fact is it isn't changing their right to bear arms, just their ability to obtain them so easily.
Being able to walk into a shot show and pay cash for a weapon and not have to do any paperwork or any background checks is just retarded.
-PB Didnt obama try to pass legislation to get back ground checks done but was shot down by the republicans and the nra campaigning saying it infringed their rights ? Nothing will change over in the U.s Yep, which is just fucking retarded. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:
Professional pest controllers.
Plenty in Australia have AR15's or modified AK's and the like as well as other pattern semi autos.
-PB
And what class license would those blokes hold PB? C and D which you can only get by being a professional. The Adler was always going to be a Cat B until some Greens secretary got their knickers in a knot. -PB No. It was going to be category A. The widest and easiest to get license category in Australia. 7000 were pre ordered even before they got to Australia. 7000 ! Yes, I am one of those pre-orders. And it should have been Cat B as it is centrefire not rimfire. -PB
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Eastern Glory
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quickflick wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Benjamin wrote:lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic There's a legitimate reason for being a Muslim - I can't think of a single legitimate reason for a civilian to own a semi-auto/full-automatic weapon. You've shown your ignorance autos are banned in the u.s and semi auto has a legitimate purpose for pest control and self defence Not that the u.s needs a reason because it's a a constitutional right It's a constitutional right because in 1791, when there was a greater degree of lawlessness and there was no proper police force, it was necessary that individuals should be able to bear arms to protect themselves. There's a profound and excellent dimension of US politics insofar as individual rights are protected. In 1791, the best way of protecting the individual's rights was to permit the individual to bear arms. Today however, there is proper law enforcement in the US (well, allegedly). There were any number of rights which people exercised in Britain in hundreds of years ago which either no longer exist (because they are no longer necessary) or custom dictates that they no longer demanded. In fact, it's often the latter. Britain still has the death penalty for high treason. However, this would never be enforced. I gather that, strictly speaking, in the UK an expectant mother has the right to urinate in a policeman's helmet. Would this ever happen? No. This says a lot about the States and its curious political nuances. They still interpret rights which are no longer necessary (in fact downright dangerous) literally and demand those rights. It speaks of the emphasis on individual rights, the inability to deal with unnecessary/dangerous rights in today's society, the entrenched right-wing politics and the sheer stupidity of a large proportion of the society. Edited by quickflick: 28/8/2015 03:28:55 AM Yep. Just like Englishmen are still allowed to shoot Scotsmen with a bow and arrow on English soil... And killing a swan is high treason.
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Condemned666
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[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins
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scotty21
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Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think.
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paulbagzFC
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scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB
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scotty21
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paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it. Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob.
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scotty21
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I did have a good lol at "LOWER? ITS 35 TO 12,000!"
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paulbagzFC
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scotty21 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it. Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob. Unfortunately guns does equal safety in America because they are so widespread (millions upon millions of firearms) because they have been making and selling them for 150+ years with things like paperwork and because they're so widespread and easy to get into the hands of the criminal elements of society, you need to arm yourself accordingly. Fight fire with fire etc. EDIT: Without paperwork** -PB Edited by paulbagzFC: 28/8/2015 10:20:54 AM
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AzzaMarch
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There is a great book by Stephen Pinker called "The Better Angels of Our Nature" which documents the historical decline of violence (both in war and within societies) over time. I highly recommend it, a fascinating read.
He has an interesting theory as to the USA cultural affinity to guns, and their higher rates of murder (and violence generally) compared to other rich countries.
Essentially, the argument goes that the USA became a democracy before the population was pacified. Whereas in other comparable countries (mostly Europe), the population was generally de-armed, and the ruling power firmly monopolised the legitimate (ie legal) use of violence. Democracy only occurred after the population was de-armed, so there were no democratic arguments in terms of retaining guns.
Whereas in the US, the population was still highly armed, and the country retained a frontier and frontier wars, whilst the country was democratised (for white men at least). So you had this issue of the will of the people arguing against losing their guns, which in a democratic society means gun ownership is retained.
Also, the USA retained this "frontier" culture for much longer than any other rich country, and therefore inherited a much stronger culture of willingness to use violence (because on the frontier there was little legal recourse in disputes).
I am really doing the argument disservice by cherry picking the most relevant points, but it is an interesting argument.
US violence is decreasing, and at some point will "normalise" in line with the rest of the rich world.
Another interesting fact is that the NUMBER OF HOUSEHOLDS with guns is in an historical decline, whereas the NUMBER OF GUNS is increasing.
So less people have guns, but the ones that have them are increasing the number of guns they have.
I find that somewhat reassuring, but disturbing at the same time.
Edited by AzzaMarch: 28/8/2015 10:25:03 AM
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scotty21
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paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it. Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob. Unfortunately guns does equal safety in America because they are so widespread (millions upon millions of firearms) because they have been making and selling them for 150+ years with things like paperwork and because they're so widespread and easy to get into the hands of the criminal elements of society, you need to arm yourself accordingly. Fight fire with fire etc. -PB I just don't get how you can have 12,000 people a year die from gun crime not to mention horrible mass murders like Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Charlestown Church and still think the answer is anything but Gun Control. Edited by scotty21: 28/8/2015 10:23:49 AM
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paulbagzFC
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Normally you wouldn't really have more than 5 guns (the principle of types), but it's easy to rack up lots just thanks to all the different calibres and what not. -PB
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Carlito
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paulbagzFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:While sweeping change will never happen thanks to the 2nd amendment, what they really do need is a uniform and better system in place like in Australia for actually getting these things.
Of course they will jump up and down and scream blur murder about their rights, but the fact is it isn't changing their right to bear arms, just their ability to obtain them so easily.
Being able to walk into a shot show and pay cash for a weapon and not have to do any paperwork or any background checks is just retarded.
-PB Didnt obama try to pass legislation to get back ground checks done but was shot down by the republicans and the nra campaigning saying it infringed their rights ? Nothing will change over in the U.s Yep, which is just fucking retarded. -PB Yep. I got an uncle who is a gun nut (he lives in texas) and he posts nra propaganda on his facebook page non stop. If some one trys to reason with him he just does what any hardcore republican does and thats insult them .
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scotty21
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It took 1 world wide headline grabbing atrocity for us to act on gun control. Now I am a bit to young to remember the reaction of the public here after Port Arthur but I would imagine that it would not be the same as if the same atrocity has occurred in the states.
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scotty21
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And if a US president ever did act on gun control it could very well start a civil war
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Carlito
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scotty21 wrote:It took 1 world wide headline grabbing atrocity for us to act on gun control.
Now I am a bit to young to remember the reaction of the public here after Port Arthur but I would imagine that it would not be the same as if the same atrocity has occurred in the states. Well there was a stunned shock that rocked around oz. The fact howard took the gun lobby on and said enoughs enoughs shows guts. The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive
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Cityslicker10
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scotty21 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it. Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob. This bloke is off his rocker. I cant believe it. I am speechless this is what people believe in. .. You know what Thank god for Australia. We truly are the lucky country.
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scotty21
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:scotty21 wrote:It took 1 world wide headline grabbing atrocity for us to act on gun control.
Now I am a bit to young to remember the reaction of the public here after Port Arthur but I would imagine that it would not be the same as if the same atrocity has occurred in the states. Well there was a stunned shock that rocked around oz. The fact howard took the gun lobby on and said enoughs enoughs shows guts. The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive Can remember my dad handing in a rifle when the gun buyback was on. But yes I have a friend or two who are licenced gun owners and it is very restrictive.
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Muz
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote: The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive Care to elaborate on these "way to (sic) restrictive" restrictions? Or is this just another unsubstantiated, second-hand, anecdotal assertion.
Member since 2008.
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paulbagzFC
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scotty21 wrote:It took 1 world wide headline grabbing atrocity for us to act on gun control.
Now I am a bit to young to remember the reaction of the public here after Port Arthur but I would imagine that it would not be the same as if the same atrocity has occurred in the states. Howard was wearing a bullet proof vest when he made that speech. Balls of steel. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote: The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive Care to elaborate on these "way to (sic) restrictive" restrictions? Or is this just another unsubstantiated, second-hand, anecdotal assertion. Restrictive isn't the correct word to use, an absolute fuck about is more correct. The way the anti-gun crew in Australia paint things is like we're America or some shit. -PB
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote: The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive Care to elaborate on these "way to (sic) restrictive" restrictions? Or is this just another unsubstantiated, second-hand, anecdotal assertion. Restrictive isn't the correct word to use, an absolute fuck about is more correct. The way the anti-gun crew in Australia paint things is like we're America or some shit. -PB I know you know. I'm interested in Mr Anecdotal's input. As for the other thing one blokes "restrictive" is another blokes "sensible".
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melbourne_terrace
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scotty21 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:scotty21 wrote:Condemned666 wrote:[youtube]RC4JJWUtzkc[/youtube]
^ Now if I was that gun guy Piers Morgan interviewed and we were in the same room he wouldnt have stood a chance, because I have a gun #strongwins Jesus Fucking Christ. The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think. Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not. People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it. As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything. That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics). America is just a bit silly. -PB Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it. Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob. Unfortunately guns does equal safety in America because they are so widespread (millions upon millions of firearms) because they have been making and selling them for 150+ years with things like paperwork and because they're so widespread and easy to get into the hands of the criminal elements of society, you need to arm yourself accordingly. Fight fire with fire etc. -PB I just don't get how you can have 12,000 people a year die from gun crime not to mention horrible mass murders like Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Charlestown Church and still think the answer is anything but Gun Control. Edited by scotty21: 28/8/2015 10:23:49 AM If any other western Country got a casualty list like that, then the issue would almost certainly become securitised by the government.
Viennese Vuck
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AzzaMarch
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"The United States is, by a long shot, the global leader in mass shootings, claiming just 5 per cent of the global population but an outsized share – 31 per cent – of the world's mass shooters since 1966, a new study finds". "A 2007 survey found 270 million firearms in American civilian households – an ownership rate of 88.8 firearms per 100 people. Yemen followed, with 54.8 firearms per 100 people". http://www.theage.com.au/world/why-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-study-20150827-gj9oi8.html
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trident
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Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw.
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paulbagzFC
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AzzaMarch wrote:"The United States is, by a long shot, the global leader in mass shootings, claiming just 5 per cent of the global population but an outsized share – 31 per cent – of the world's mass shooters since 1966, a new study finds". "A 2007 survey found 270 million firearms in American civilian households – an ownership rate of 88.8 firearms per 100 people. Yemen followed, with 54.8 firearms per 100 people". http://www.theage.com.au/world/why-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-study-20150827-gj9oi8.html Yemen; werd. -PB
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macktheknife
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trident wrote:Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw. If Sandy Hook, with 20 six year olds getting slaughtered didn't do it, no chance this will.
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Condemned666
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paulbagzFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:"The United States is, by a long shot, the global leader in mass shootings, claiming just 5 per cent of the global population but an outsized share – 31 per cent – of the world's mass shooters since 1966, a new study finds". "A 2007 survey found 270 million firearms in American civilian households – an ownership rate of 88.8 firearms per 100 people. Yemen followed, with 54.8 firearms per 100 people". http://www.theage.com.au/world/why-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-study-20150827-gj9oi8.html Yemen; werd. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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macktheknife wrote:trident wrote:Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw. If Sandy Hook, with 20 six year olds getting slaughtered didn't do it, no chance this will. Too much money involved, too many people wielding influence that have invested interests. It's not about saving lives, its about saving stock prices. -PB
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Scoll
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macktheknife wrote:trident wrote:Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw. If Sandy Hook, with 20 six year olds getting slaughtered didn't do it, no chance this will. This. About the only thing that will get conservatives to give up their guns is if owning one came with some sort of curse that made all their offspring homosexual.
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trident
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This isnt entirely true. Background checks are gaining momentum and there are quite a number of new laws on the table. It may not be the change to the constitution you want but progress is happening. I expect Hillary to continue when she's elected.
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Condemned666
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paulbagzFC wrote:macktheknife wrote:trident wrote:Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw. If Sandy Hook, with 20 six year olds getting slaughtered didn't do it, no chance this will. Too much money involved, too many people wielding influence that have invested interests. It's not about saving lives, its about saving stock prices. -PB So in the end we're all human mcnuggets are we? Edited by condemned666: 28/8/2015 08:15:30 PM
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TrueAnglo
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roarys mane
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Dont know if anybody has brought this up, but go on YouTube and watch Jon Oliver's 3 part series on Gun Control from wen he was back on John Stewart's show as a reporter.
Pollies in the US dgaf about the people, they spend most of their time in office trying to get re-elected. Its a joke.
I love America (traveled through a little bit) but their gun issues are a systematic problem and are becoming emotionally crippling for many Americans. Its unbelievable that they can still have the attitudes they have in the face of all the data showing gun control works and the pleas of the remainder of the rest of the world.
That Mass Shooting Map stuff is so depressing to look at as well.
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TrueAnglo
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roary's mane wrote:Dont know if anybody has brought this up, but go on YouTube and watch Jon Oliver's 3 part series on Gun Control from wen he was back on John Stewart's show as a reporter.
Pollies in the US dgaf about the people, they spend most of their time in office trying to get re-elected. Its a joke.
I love America (traveled through a little bit) but their gun issues are a systematic problem and are becoming emotionally crippling for many Americans. Its unbelievable that they can still have the attitudes they have in the face of all the data showing gun control works and the pleas of the remainder of the rest of the world.
That Mass Shooting Map stuff is so depressing to look at as well. A stat sheet isn't important to someone defending themselves and their family
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433
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There's more guns in Australia now than there were at the time of the Port Arthur shooting, yet we have a lowered amount of gun violence. Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150What does this prove? That banning guns does nothing to the supply of firearms and criminals will get there hands on them any way. We've not had any mass-shootings (since people seem to ignore the Monash one), but we've still got the same amount of guns on our streets.
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433
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trident wrote:This isnt entirely true. Background checks are gaining momentum and there are quite a number of new laws on the table. It may not be the change to the constitution you want but progress is happening. I expect Hillary to continue when she's elected. I hope you don't seriously believe that she will be good for the country.
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lukerobinho
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433 wrote:There's more guns in Australia now than there were at the time of the Port Arthur shooting, yet we have a lowered amount of gun violence. Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150What does this prove? That banning guns does nothing to the supply of firearms and criminals will get there hands on them any way. We've not had any mass-shootings (since people seem to ignore the Monash one), but we've still got the same amount of guns on our streets. They also tend to ignore the massacre in cairns last year where 8 were killed but its not important because it involved a knife
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paulbagzFC
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433 wrote:There's more guns in Australia now than there were at the time of the Port Arthur shooting, yet we have a lowered amount of gun violence. Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150What does this prove? That banning guns does nothing to the supply of firearms and criminals will get there hands on them any way. We've not had any mass-shootings (since people seem to ignore the Monash one), but we've still got the same amount of guns on our streets. Exactly, comes down to a cultural issue imo. Something in the water, or there's just a higher number of capacity of psychopaths based off a higher population (and ease of getting a gun). And you're spot on about criminals and guns, tightening law abiding citizens in Australia will change nothing. -PB
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T-UNIT
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I wonder how the gunman managed to change shirts while all this was happening.
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Unshackled
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks. Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know. Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM
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T-UNIT
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T-UNIT wrote:I wonder how the gunman managed to change shirts while all this was happening.
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AzzaMarch
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Oh god, i wondered how long it would take for the false flag arguments to come...
Like has been stated before, if Sandy Hook didn't motivate Americans to change their gun laws, nothing else will.
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u4486662
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Unshackled wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks.
Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know.
Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM People don't get blown away by hand guns. Its not like the movies. This is what really happens when someone gets shot. The same thing happens if you shoot a kangaroo in the abdomen, they usually hop away before dying later unless you shoot them in the head, at which point they drop immediately. He's also not a professional marksman. When they teach cops to shoot perps they teach them to "remove the threat" which is usually hit in upper torso or head as this drops them quicker. They also have more control as they use two hands on the gun, and he used one hand. I've only seen his video a couple of times because its just awful but you can see he sprays bullets wide because he has no control over the gun. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit her in the arm or even missed a few shots. Anyway, its really awful to even talk about. I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping.
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433
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433 wrote:There's more guns in Australia now than there were at the time of the Port Arthur shooting, yet we have a lowered amount of gun violence. Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150What does this prove? That banning guns does nothing to the supply of firearms and criminals will get there hands on them any way. We've not had any mass-shootings (since people seem to ignore the Monash one), but we've still got the same amount of guns on our streets. No one going to argue with this? So we've shown that once again the rabid anti-gun crowd base their arguments on feelings and not statistics.
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paulbagzFC
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433 wrote:433 wrote:There's more guns in Australia now than there were at the time of the Port Arthur shooting, yet we have a lowered amount of gun violence. Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150What does this prove? That banning guns does nothing to the supply of firearms and criminals will get there hands on them any way. We've not had any mass-shootings (since people seem to ignore the Monash one), but we've still got the same amount of guns on our streets. No one going to argue with this? So we've shown that once again the rabid anti-gun crowd base their arguments on feelings and not statistics. Sadly its true. ABC ran an article a few days ago and is still tugging the Port Arthur heartstrings to further an anti-gun agenda which is just disgusting and soddens the memory of those poor lives lost. -PB
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macktheknife
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Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes.
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433
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macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM
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Glory Recruit
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T-UNIT wrote:T-UNIT wrote:I wonder how the gunman managed to change shirts while all this was happening.   I can see blue in this very grainy picture.
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paladisious
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Looks like a darker jacket over a blue shirt.
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Unshackled
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u4486662 wrote:Unshackled wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks.
Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know.
Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM People don't get blown away by hand guns. Its not like the movies. This is what really happens when someone gets shot. The same thing happens if you shoot a kangaroo in the abdomen, they usually hop away before dying later unless you shoot them in the head, at which point they drop immediately. He's also not a professional marksman. When they teach cops to shoot perps they teach them to "remove the threat" which is usually hit in upper torso or head as this drops them quicker. They also have more control as they use two hands on the gun, and he used one hand. I've only seen his video a couple of times because its just awful but you can see he sprays bullets wide because he has no control over the gun. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit her in the arm or even missed a few shots. Anyway, its really awful to even talk about. I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Interesting U448 thanks for the reply. On another viewing I would agree his control of the firearm is very poor. I have seen kangaroos being shot at range with rifles. Even torso or leg hits it becomes immediately clear the animal was hit and suffered trauma where as this small framed woman seemed to be unaffected. Tough lady, rip.
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paladisious
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Unshackled wrote:u4486662 wrote:Unshackled wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks.
Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know.
Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM People don't get blown away by hand guns. Its not like the movies. This is what really happens when someone gets shot. The same thing happens if you shoot a kangaroo in the abdomen, they usually hop away before dying later unless you shoot them in the head, at which point they drop immediately. He's also not a professional marksman. When they teach cops to shoot perps they teach them to "remove the threat" which is usually hit in upper torso or head as this drops them quicker. They also have more control as they use two hands on the gun, and he used one hand. I've only seen his video a couple of times because its just awful but you can see he sprays bullets wide because he has no control over the gun. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit her in the arm or even missed a few shots. Anyway, its really awful to even talk about. I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Interesting U448 thanks for the reply. On another viewing I would agree his control of the firearm is very poor. I have seen kangaroos being shot at range with rifles. Even torso or leg hits it becomes immediately clear the animal was hit and suffered trauma where as this small framed woman seemed to be unaffected. Tough lady, rip. Probably hadn't even realised she'd been hit in the second or so before the vision cuts out due to adrenaline, and I imagine her clothes hid the actual entry points of the bullets.
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trident
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paladisious wrote:Unshackled wrote:u4486662 wrote:Unshackled wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks.
Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know.
Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM People don't get blown away by hand guns. Its not like the movies. This is what really happens when someone gets shot. The same thing happens if you shoot a kangaroo in the abdomen, they usually hop away before dying later unless you shoot them in the head, at which point they drop immediately. He's also not a professional marksman. When they teach cops to shoot perps they teach them to "remove the threat" which is usually hit in upper torso or head as this drops them quicker. They also have more control as they use two hands on the gun, and he used one hand. I've only seen his video a couple of times because its just awful but you can see he sprays bullets wide because he has no control over the gun. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit her in the arm or even missed a few shots. Anyway, its really awful to even talk about. I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Interesting U448 thanks for the reply. On another viewing I would agree his control of the firearm is very poor. I have seen kangaroos being shot at range with rifles. Even torso or leg hits it becomes immediately clear the animal was hit and suffered trauma where as this small framed woman seemed to be unaffected. Tough lady, rip. Probably hadn't even realised she'd been hit in the second or so before the vision cuts out due to adrenaline, and I imagine her clothes hid the actual entry points of the bullets. 100%. Some people see conspiracies in their cornflakes. There's always a dry explanation but armchair google tinfoil experts will find a way to confirm their fantasies.
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u4486662
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Unshackled wrote:u4486662 wrote:Unshackled wrote:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
The video looks strange to me that the woman took 3 point blank shots, turned and took more in the back running away without falling down or so much as recoiling. If someone had shown me this video without having prior knowledge of the media coverage, I would have guessed it as an awful prank using blanks.
Of course I am no expert and have never actually seen a human hit with gunfire. Is it just the small caliber of the bullets perhaps? Genuinely interested from someone more in the know.
Edited by unshackled: 29/8/2015 11:23:05 AM People don't get blown away by hand guns. Its not like the movies. This is what really happens when someone gets shot. The same thing happens if you shoot a kangaroo in the abdomen, they usually hop away before dying later unless you shoot them in the head, at which point they drop immediately. He's also not a professional marksman. When they teach cops to shoot perps they teach them to "remove the threat" which is usually hit in upper torso or head as this drops them quicker. They also have more control as they use two hands on the gun, and he used one hand. I've only seen his video a couple of times because its just awful but you can see he sprays bullets wide because he has no control over the gun. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit her in the arm or even missed a few shots. Anyway, its really awful to even talk about. I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Interesting U448 thanks for the reply. On another viewing I would agree his control of the firearm is very poor. I have seen kangaroos being shot at range with rifles. Even torso or leg hits it becomes immediately clear the animal was hit and suffered trauma where as this small framed woman seemed to be unaffected. Tough lady, rip. When I was younger, I once shot a roo point blank with a .22 rifle (thats not a powerful gun, but can still kill you) and hit it high in the torso as it recoiled its head back and it hopped off into the distance and probably died later. It was pretty cruel looking back but I was only a kid and I grew up in country NSW and thats what you did in those days. Anyway, even point blank didn't drop it. This roo was smaller than an adult woman. It was only an Eastern Grey.
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Glory Recruit
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Yeah there's no blunt force from a bullet to push you back, it just goes right through you. You can charge at someone while being shot, which is what happened when the eldest Boston bomber died.
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paulbagzFC
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Depends on the round really. Most common ammo will be soft lead or FMJ which usually just goes in and out. -PB
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quickflick
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u4486662 wrote:[quote=Unshackled]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Not that it's particularly nice to think about or to speak of. But that's why, I'm told, special forces (possibly the SAS) teach the Mozambique Drill; two in the chest, one in the head where possible. One in either side of the sternum. After the first shot, there's every chance they'll still be capable of retaliating and doing damage to you. The second shot should stop them in their tracks. The shot to the head is the coup de grâce. NB- don't follow these instructions anybody
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paladisious
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quickflick wrote:u4486662 wrote:[quote=Unshackled]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=974_1440602794
I've seen videos of cops taking out people in the street lunging at them with a knife or whatever and they usually take 2 or 3 quick bullets high in the torso point blank before dropping. Not that it's particularly nice to think about or to speak of. But that's why, I'm told, special forces (possibly the SAS) teach the Mozambique Drill; two in the chest, one in the head where possible. One in either side of the sternum. After the first shot, there's every chance they'll still be capable of retaliating and doing damage to you. The second shot should stop them in their tracks. The shot to the head is the coup de grâce. NB- don't follow these instructions anybody I think you just described the Grand Final.
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quickflick
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433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Fucking this issue up, for the sake of appeasing those who want to ease restrictions on laws pertaining to firearms, could have disastrous consequences. It's not worth the risk. As there's reduced gun violence at the minute, let's not take any chances. As such, I have no issue with making it harder for people to get hold of guns. If it makes the gun-loving folk get their knickers in a knot, oh well. They can entertain themselves by other means, such as contributing to forums on 442. Edited by quickflick: 30/8/2015 02:53:12 AM
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melbourne_terrace
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quickflick wrote:433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Fucking this issue up, for the sake of appeasing those who want to ease restrictions on laws pertaining to firearms, could have disastrous consequences. It's not worth the risk. As there's reduced gun violence at the minute, let's not take any chances. As such, I have no issue with making it harder for people to get hold of guns. If it makes the gun-loving folk get their knickers in a knot, oh well. They can entertain themselves by other means, such as contributing to forums on 442. Edited by quickflick: 30/8/2015 02:53:12 AM Yep
Viennese Vuck
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paulbagzFC
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quickflick wrote:The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Except you're talking about the accessibility of guns through legal means which is not where things need to be tightened up, it's already fairly hard as it is. If someone wants to go on a spree, they will use illegally obtained guns, aka Man Monis. Must be different in other cities but in Townsville at least people can obtain illegal guns at most dingy pubs or down the port, fairly common knowledge in this area. In this country, more money needs to be spent on customs and stopping the flow of illegal firearms into the country, not restricting/tightening the legally abiding firearm owners. -PB
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TheSelectFew
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paulbagzFC wrote:quickflick wrote:The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Except you're talking about the accessibility of guns through legal means which is not where things need to be tightened up, it's already fairly hard as it is. If someone wants to go on a spree, they will use illegally obtained guns, aka Man Monis. Must be different in other cities but in Townsville at least people can obtain illegal guns at most dingy pubs or down the port, fairly common knowledge in this area. In this country, more money needs to be spent on customs and stopping the flow of illegal firearms into the country, not restricting/tightening the legally abiding firearm owners. -PB Couldn't agree with you more. Especially when said guns are semi autos etc. Plus the process in which to get a gun is so long and tiring if someone wanted to kill a mass of people they would be cbf'd by the end of the process.
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:quickflick wrote:The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Except you're talking about the accessibility of guns through legal means which is not where things need to be tightened up, it's already fairly hard as it is. If someone wants to go on a spree, they will use illegally obtained guns, aka Man Monis. Must be different in other cities but in Townsville at least people can obtain illegal guns at most dingy pubs or down the port, fairly common knowledge in this area. In this country, more money needs to be spent on customs and stopping the flow of illegal firearms into the country, not restricting/tightening the legally abiding firearm owners. -PB Restricting 7000 pre-ordered shotguns with an ability to shoot 8 rounds in 8 seconds that were to be sold to gun owners holding the least restrictive and easiest available class of gun license is a good thing. (Despite your whinging.) The more guns floating around the more likely an unhinged moron will get his hands on one. By all means restrict the flow of illegal weapons in but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything about dangerous legally imported weapons that are trying to skirt around Australia's gun laws. (Which is exactly what they were trying to do.) It should be hard (if not next to impossible) to own something that has been specifically designed to kill.
Member since 2008.
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99 Problems
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Genuinely interested to see what reasons there are for a civilian to need a gun?
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absent
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lukerobinho wrote:Munrubenmuz wrote:And when Tone says no to a weapon that can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds peanuts complain. Not all muslims are terrorists but all gun owners are ? never followed that logic Not all bomb-makers are terrorists either... Sooo dynamite for all? You know, just in case the government comes to bum your cat... 'logic'.
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u4486662
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I just want to say that the total number of homicides in Australia has steadily declined since the 90s despite our increase in population. There are probably many reasons for this but I wouldn't be surprised if gun control is one of them.
Also on a side note, due to gun restrictions, there are fewer suicides from guns. More people are now FAILING to commit suicide by not having as easy access to more lethal means. Despite more attempts at suicide. Maybe they can get help after the first attempt.
Anyway, sorry if this triggers people, but I think its important to mention. lifeline.org.au - 13 11 14. mensline.org.au 1300 78 99 78.
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433
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quickflick wrote:433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Yeah, it was really hard for Man Monis wasn't it :roll: Face it, whether guns are legal or not - bad people will find a way to get them. All you're doing is preventing law abiding citizens from going out and getting them themselves. Quote:Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. America has also shown a decrease in gun violence, despite also having an increased supply. It's just that high-profile cases and the wider proliferation of news create the image that there is some sort of increasing trend, when in reality it's the oppostie. Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/Places like Switzerland (4th highest gun ownership per capita in the world) also have one of the lowest gun homicides in the world (0.5 per 100,000 people). Source: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/How's that for sample space?
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roarys mane
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433 wrote:quickflick wrote:433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Yeah, it was really hard for Man Monis wasn't it :roll: Face it, whether guns are legal or not - bad people will find a way to get them. All you're doing is preventing law abiding citizens from going out and getting them themselves. Quote:Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. America has also shown a decrease in gun violence, despite also having an increased supply. It's just that high-profile cases and the wider proliferation of news create the image that there is some sort of increasing trend, when in reality it's the oppostie. Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/Places like Switzerland (4th highest gun ownership per capita in the world) also have one of the lowest gun homicides in the world (0.5 per 100,000 people). Source: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/How's that for sample space? We get it. Your opinion is the only correct opinion. This isnt unusual for you.
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trident
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Brave man trying to make a difference. He's hopeful that because it was someone in the media the media may give more weight to addressing gun control more seriously.
[youtube]PgoYZBQ_Ku4[/youtube]
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433
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roary's mane wrote:433 wrote:quickflick wrote:433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Yeah, it was really hard for Man Monis wasn't it :roll: Face it, whether guns are legal or not - bad people will find a way to get them. All you're doing is preventing law abiding citizens from going out and getting them themselves. Quote:Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. America has also shown a decrease in gun violence, despite also having an increased supply. It's just that high-profile cases and the wider proliferation of news create the image that there is some sort of increasing trend, when in reality it's the oppostie. Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/Places like Switzerland (4th highest gun ownership per capita in the world) also have one of the lowest gun homicides in the world (0.5 per 100,000 people). Source: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/How's that for sample space? We get it. Your opinion is the only correct opinion. This isnt unusual for you. When did I ever say that? All I did was provide a counter-argument (with cited statistics and sources mind you). All I did was engage in discussion instead of resorting to fallacies and personal attacks like you've just done. Grow up.
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433
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Why would anyone need a gun? Edited by 433: 30/8/2015 05:52:26 PM
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quickflick
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paulbagzFC wrote:quickflick wrote:The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Except you're talking about the accessibility of guns through legal means which is not where things need to be tightened up, it's already fairly hard as it is. If someone wants to go on a spree, they will use illegally obtained guns, aka Man Monis. Must be different in other cities but in Townsville at least people can obtain illegal guns at most dingy pubs or down the port, fairly common knowledge in this area. In this country, more money needs to be spent on customs and stopping the flow of illegal firearms into the country, not restricting/tightening the legally abiding firearm owners. -PB You're right in suggesting that certain elements of the criminal underworld will always get their hands on weapons. To that end, I agree with you that more should be done to stop the importation of weapons illegally. But if we maintain the status quo with respect to regulating licensing and acquisition of firearms (I'm not sure if we need to be stricter), then that's hardly a huge cost. We can spend more money, as you suggest, on policing it. paulbagzFC wrote:If someone wants to go on a spree, they will use illegally obtained guns, aka Man Monis. To be perfectly frank. I don't agree. You've got to look at the profile of people who go on shooting sprees. Some are very intelligent and thus would be perfectly capable of gaining access to firearms illegally. However, a number of famous cases have been individuals who are severely intellectually challenged. It's highly likely that such individuals lack the wherewithal to obtain firearms illegally. It's simply too hard for them. We can't bank on this happening, but it's all part of risk-management. The kind of people who go on shooting sprees have often been simpletons who bought/acquired guns by legal means. If they cannot do this, then that seriously reduces the chance of them being able to go on a shooting spree.
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quickflick
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433 wrote:quickflick wrote:433 wrote:macktheknife wrote:Quote:No one going to argue with this? Unless you've got a time machine, no-one will know how many guns, and how much gun violence would have occurred if there weren't any changes. :lol: So lets base our decisions on hypothesis's, educated guesses and "what might have beens" instead of statistics The fact is that there has been a steady increase of guns into this country after the initial dropoff after the massacre, and this has correlated with a decrease in gun violence. It's pretty conclusive if you ask me. Edited by 433: 29/8/2015 02:37:56 PM It's not conclusive. That's too simplistic, I think. There could be a whole host of other reasons which have an impact on reduced gun violence. There are other nuances involved in the number of guns too, too. It's all very well to say there are more guns. But you need to deconstruct it further and work out where those guns are. The fact is that if guns are less accessible and somebody wants to go on a shooting spree, it's going to be harder for him/her to do so. Yeah, it was really hard for Man Monis wasn't it :roll: Face it, whether guns are legal or not - bad people will find a way to get them. All you're doing is preventing law abiding citizens from going out and getting them themselves. Quote:Just because there are more guns, it doesn't necessarily mean that guns are more accessible or even as accessible as they were before the government cracked down. It's also too small a sample space. You need to look at other countries too, not just Australia. America has also shown a decrease in gun violence, despite also having an increased supply. It's just that high-profile cases and the wider proliferation of news create the image that there is some sort of increasing trend, when in reality it's the oppostie. Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/Places like Switzerland (4th highest gun ownership per capita in the world) also have one of the lowest gun homicides in the world (0.5 per 100,000 people). Source: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/How's that for sample space? Thanks for the stats. The sample space is still too small at three countries. Plus, there are other influences which play their part. For the statistics to be truly meaningful, we need to unpack it far more. Who owns those guns, what kind of jobs are prevalent in Switzerland, etc? Then there are cultural influences as well. Some countries are culturally better-suited to dealing with a high incidence of firearms. As for the US, take those statistics with a grain of salt. Even if violence has decreased, in spite of an increase in guns, the amount of violence is so prolific that the statistics can't be taken qualitatively to argue in favour of relaxing gun laws. The US is just fucked in so many ways. Most people have no need for guns, especially semi-automatic/automatic weapons. They may want such weapons. But most people have no need for such weapons. Basic economics. The difference between wants and needs. So they can just suck it up. It may seem unfair, but if it saves lives then so be it. It was different in 1791, when the Second Amendment was written. Back then, in the absence of a proper police form and the prevalence of a greater degree of lawlessness, the individual deserved the right to arm himself (or herself). Permitting the right to bear arms was the best means of protecting the individual's rights. Back then, the individual needed to be able to protect himself (or herself). But today we have a proper, empowered police force, law-abiding societies and we decry vigilante justice. There's no need for people to have the right to such weapons anymore. The issue is that if we fuck this up, it could have monumental consequences which will destroy lives. We certainly can't look at statistics, which haven't been deconstructed, and use that as an argument in favour of relaxing restrictions. It's not worth the risk. u4486662 is right. Gun-related incidents have decreased in Australia since stricter regulation. There may be more guns around, but the regulation is strict. Clearly the regulation is working. As such, we need to maintain the status quo with respect to regulation of legal firearms (at the very least). And, by all means, let's target illegal firearms too.
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quickflick
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u4486662 wrote:I just want to say that the total number of homicides in Australia has steadily declined since the 90s despite our increase in population. There are probably many reasons for this but I wouldn't be surprised if gun control is one of them.
Also on a side note, due to gun restrictions, there are fewer suicides from guns. More people are now FAILING to commit suicide by not having as easy access to more lethal means. Despite more attempts at suicide. Maybe they can get help after the first attempt.
Anyway, sorry if this triggers people, but I think its important to mention. lifeline.org.au - 13 11 14. mensline.org.au 1300 78 99 78. Excellent post
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AzzaMarch
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It is a complex issue, the Wikipedia article on Australian gun laws does a good job explaining things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_AustraliaAlso, whilst there are more guns, the population is also bigger. Gun ownership rates seem to have decreased (at least as of 2013). http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/01/16/cause-for-alarm-australia-has-more-guns-but-theyre-less-dangerous/?wpmp_switcher=mobile"Alpers said the estimated number of firearms at the time of the Port Arthur massacre was 3.2 million. Australian Bureau of Statistics data shows the number of guns per 100 people in 1996 would have been 17.3, based on the 3.2 million figure. Today that number is estimated at 13.9 guns per 100 people, making the number of guns per capita significantly less than it was in 1996. (Australia’s population has grown by more than 4.4 million since 1996.)" The other point raised in the same article above, is the type of guns here now: "Alpers says you also need to factor in the types of guns legally available to Australians today. “They’re different types of guns,” he said. “They’re not the semi-automatics which were specifically banned after Port Arthur.” This article is interesting in terms of the "do more guns mean more gun deaths?" argument: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/editorial/three-million-guns-is-more-than-enough-20130114-2cppg.html"The Swiss have national military service and an extensive army reserve program, which means there are guns in most homes. Switzerland is held up by the gun lobby in support of the adage that guns don't kill, people do". "It turns out that Switzerland is not the paragon it appears. The rate of homicides involving guns in Switzerland is 0.52, four times higher than the Australian rate and more than double the rates in France and Germany. The only nation that makes Switzerland look good is the United States, which is so far above all other advanced economies, with a rate of 3.59 gun homicides per 100,000 people, that it is in a category of its own, with a grisly sequence of gun massacres to show for it". I don't know anything about guns from first hand experience, but it seems logical to me that more guns equals at least an increased risk of firearm death. you also have the issue of pre-emptively arming yourself in anticipatory self-defence if your suspicion is that your society has a lot of guns. I think there are things that can be done (better monitoring of the importation of guns) that are not targeting legal owners. But I don't buy the argument that restrictive gun laws do not have a positive impact in reducing gun violence.
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Muz
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AzzaMarch wrote: But I don't buy the argument that restrictive gun laws do not have a positive impact in reducing gun violence. Only the willfully ignorant or the disingenuous think that restricting guns doesn't have an effect on reducing gun deaths. And on the gun per capita statistic that everyone loves to quote, shitloads of gun owners have more than one gun (my former neighbour had eight) so the stats are skewed to sound worse than they are. I'd imagine the US would be the same. Edited by munrubenmuz: 31/8/2015 12:17:57 PM
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AzzaMarch
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Just to re-emphasis a point:
Yes, all crime has decreased across the USA (and the rich world) over the last 20 or so years after reaching an apex in the 1990s.
However, the USA when compared to other rich countries has an extremely high murder rate, and an extremely high gun death rate. For gun deaths I think the figure is 3.14 per 100,000 people, compared to about 0.03 in Europe, and I think 0.13 for Australia.
So it isn't just the trend that is relevant (although it is relevant), but also the actual rate itself.
This cuts both ways - it is hard to confirm that the harsher Australian laws have themselves led to reduced gun homicide when there is a general trend of reducing crime overlaying that.
But you also can't argue that gun availability in the USA has led to reduced gun violence either, for the same reasons.
The simple fact is that the USA is a statistical outlier - both in rates of gun ownership, and in gun homicide rates.
I am in favour of strict gun laws in order to control the development of a strong NRA-esque lobby group developing in Australia.
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:Restricting 7000 pre-ordered shotguns with an ability to shoot 8 rounds in 8 seconds that were to be sold to gun owners holding the least restrictive and easiest available class of gun license is a good thing. (Despite your whinging.) Except there was no reason for it as part of the NFA, Tony did it via his anti-terrorism laws which was just a knee jerk reaction. Also doesn't take into account that there have been shotguns exactly the same as the Adler that have been sold in Australia for over 100 years and nothing has been mentioned about them. The Adler is no different to people buying a car from one brand over another, the reason why it was popular was because of its quality and price point, not because its a lever action and its capacity (as mentioned there have been plenty of shotguns with the exact same specs sold for over 100 years). The reason why the Adler copped the flack it did is because the silly Turkish bastards used heavy metal music for their promo vid and it got some greenies raging. Restricting the import of this to legal gun holders won't stop this shotgun from getting into the hands of criminals, something that uninformed people such as yourself don't seem to understand. Guns used in gun violence in Australia are seldom guns stolen from legitimate owners, they are illegally imported. Not only that, these types of guns wouldn't be used in atypical gun violence. People can't run around with a 20" shotgun, they saw them off and the get either SxS or pump actions in stead. Further to that they use handguns and other forms of semi-automatics. You don't see bikies getting into an OK Corral with a bolt action with a 5 round mag. Just doesn't happen. Munrubenmuz wrote:The more guns floating around the more likely an unhinged moron will get his hands on one. Wrong once again. Go have a look where Monis got his from. Certainly wasn't a gun shop or from a legitimate owner. Munrubenmuz wrote:By all means restrict the flow of illegal weapons in but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything about dangerous legally imported weapons that are trying to skirt around Australia's gun laws. (Which is exactly what they were trying to do.) No they weren't, they suited the Categories set down by the NFA and other state licensing bodies (just like all the other level actions and level action shotguns sold in the last 100+ years). The only Police department that was thinking of reclassifying them as a C or D was ACT, no other state Police body had an issue with its categorization. Munrubenmuz wrote:It should be hard (if not next to impossible) to own something that has been specifically designed to kill. So best to take away bow and arrows? Spear gun fishing? 90% of knives? Garden spears? Heaven forbid someone would have a hobby like sport shooting or to make a living as a professional hunter that helps with things like wildlife conservation. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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99 Problems wrote:Genuinely interested to see what reasons there are for a civilian to need a gun? No such thing as a "need" for a gun. A want yes, a need no. I want a gun because I am a sport shooter and I go hunting. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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quickflick wrote:It's highly likely that such individuals lack the wherewithal to obtain firearms illegally. It's simply too hard for them. We can't bank on this happening, but it's all part of risk-management. Unfortunately that's where people are delusional, it is very easy to get your hands on an illegal firearm. People also thought it was hard to get their hands on heavy drugs like Heroin and Ice when they first hit the streets, look how easy it is to get now. quickflick wrote:The kind of people who go on shooting sprees have often been simpletons who bought/acquired guns by legal means. If they cannot do this, then that seriously reduces the chance of them being able to go on a shooting spree. As for this part here and especially in the bold, I'm defending Australia gun laws and so forth here, not American. People also seem to overestimate just how "easy" it is to get a gun in Australia. It's a colossal pain in the arse let alone the license itself. The idea that someone can get their hands on a handgun/ccw or some other type of semi-auto (legally) in Australia and go on a Port Arthur 2.0 is pretty long winded (not only just for the time and costs involved). -PB
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Muz
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@ PB. Stop bullshitting. The Adler has an 8 round capacity. As such it should have been a Cat D at a minimum. The rules are crystal clear but in case others want to check they can go here. https://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/licenceApplication/weapons/categories/categories.htm But you knew that anyway. I'm glad there's "greenies raging" if that means there's 7000 less, as a pre-ordered minimum, high capacity, quick reloading shotguns, floating about in the hands of gun "enthusiasts" who hold the least restrictive and easiest to get gun license. Lucky we have the greens because the police are obviously incompetent if they can't follow their own guidelines. There may well have been (or are) shotguns like that around in Australia for the last hundred years but that doesn't mean it's OK to have them now. Shit, I had a semi-automatic rifles myself before the buyback but that doesn't mean I can own one now. Munrubenmuz wrote:The more guns floating around the more likely an unhinged moron will get his hands on one. PaulbagzFC wrote: Wrong once again. Go have a look where Monis got his from. Certainly wasn't a gun shop or from a legitimate owner. My original point stands. The more guns in circulation the easier it is to get one. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/hundreds-of-guns-stolen-across-nsw-as-thieves-target-private-homes-and-firearms-charges-rise/story-fni0cx12-1227048229707http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/police-investigate-shotguns-and-rifles-stolen-from-berrimah-business/story-fnk1w5xw-1227472453749?sv=2dbd07b7b95829e24ee343cadf7828a1http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/four-firearms-stolen-from-yass-garage-20150706-gi5yiz.htmlWhere do you think these legally obtained, licensed, stored securely guns might end up? Responsible gun owners are put out because of these gun laws that's true but as I said previously I have to drink out of a plastic schooner glass because of unhinged fuckheads wandering around society. Plastic schooner glasses don't eliminate glassings altogether because cockheads will use a stubby or a wine glass or whatever but as a risk management strategy it's a sound approach that leads to a better outcome. PaulbagzFC wrote: So best to take away bow and arrows? Spear gun fishing? 90% of knives? Garden spears? Far more difficult, though not impossible, to go on a massacre with a bow and arrow, speargun or a garden spear. Knives are a possibility. PaulbagzFC wrote:Heaven forbid someone would have a hobby like sport shooting or to make a living as a professional hunter that helps with things like wildlife conservation. No problem here. Hobbyists will just have to make do with the existing available cache of weapons. Professional shooters are another category altogether and if they can prove they need the Adler then that's something that should be looked at. Nth Qld Bogans with Rum Pig stickers, 4 CB and UHF antennas, Mack track mudguards and 300 spotlights all over their utes that go pigging and are category A licensed need to be kept well away from the Adler and guns like it. Ha ha. Typed "ute" into google images to find one close to the above description and this was about the 8th photo down. Couldn't have scripted it better. (Kenworth mudguards rather than Mack truck.) Edited by munrubenmuz: 31/8/2015 02:41:16 PM
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Muz
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And stop telling everybody who hasn't a clue how "unbelievably hard" it is to get a gun license. More bullshit. Fill in a few forms, get someone to say you're allowed to shoot on their property, do a 6 hour ($100) course and you sir are a licensed shooter. As for secure storage. Well a heavy wooden box with a padlock will do very nicely thanks very much.
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paulbagzFC
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Manrub out of his depth and resulting to personal insults :lol: Toasted. -PB
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:And stop telling everybody who hasn't a clue how "unbelievably hard" it is to get a gun license. More bullshit.
Fill in a few forms, get someone to say you're allowed to shoot on their property, do a 6 hour ($100) course and you sir are a licensed shooter.
As for secure storage. Well a heavy wooden box with a padlock will do very nicely thanks very much. So you have a gun license then? :lol: You've applied for one and done said course? :lol: -PB
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:Manrub out of his depth and resulting to personal insults :lol:
Toasted.
-PB PaulbagzFC out of his depth and "resulting" to personal insults. Crumpeted! Keep patting yourself on the back champion. I haven't called you any names or "resulted" to "personal insults". I'll leave that to you and your ilk. I've simply said you're talking bullshit and I've proved it. If you'd like to refute any of my 2 previous posts then go ahead. But if you continue to distort (or lie some would say) then expect to be called out. Edited by munrubenmuz: 31/8/2015 05:29:26 PM
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lukerobinho
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Gun registration actually contributes to likelihood of premises being targeted by criminal groups who are able to obtain such information by insiders in the police force
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paulbagzFC
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Munrubenmuz wrote:@ PB.
Stop bullshitting. I'm not. You are the one who won't answer the question about having a weapons license or doing any of the said courses. For someone who goes on about people using anecdotal evidence in debates you sure are coming across as quite the hyprocrite. Cat D as per the legistlation that you linked; Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon—
a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for military purposes or a firearm that substantially duplicates a rifle of that type in design, function or appearance; b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with either an integral or detachable magazine; c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds and a pump action shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds; d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to a weapon mentioned in the subsection even if the weapon is permanently inoperable.The Adler is none of those things, nor is round capacity mentioned for lever actions, only pump actions. It is a lever action centrefire shotgun, and as such it was put in the same catergory as lever action rifles (Catergory B). The reason for the 12 month suspension of the rifle was actually stated by Catherine Smith (Assistant Secretary to Hon Michael Keenan MP) in an email to me just yesterday actually; The Government is conscious that the regulation of firearms is of great interest to many members of the Australian community. For this reason, in addition to incorporating advice from all federal and state law enforcement and justice agencies, the review of the NFA will also involve consultation with the firearms community (industry, recreational groups and licensed shooters) and community safety organisations in order to produce sensible, practical changes where required. As part of that consultation process, on 12 August 2015, the Government announced the establishment of an Industry Reference Group to provide advice to Government and the Firearms and Weapons Policy Working Group (FWPWG) – which comprises representatives of all Australian Governments – on any updates to the technical elements of the NFA.
Minister Keenan will chair the Industry Reference Group and will meet with members in the lead up to first ministers considering any proposed update to the NFA at the first COAG meeting of 2016.The Adler block was more about the upcoming look at the NFA as a result of the outcomes of the Sydney Siege Enquiry. Munrubenmuz wrote:I'm glad there's "greenies raging" if that means there's 7000 less, as a pre-ordered minimum, high capacity, quick reloading shotguns, floating about in the hands of gun "enthusiasts" who hold the least restrictive and easiest to get gun license. Once again with the anecdotal evidence. Also, a very large percentage of Adler imports were from hunters and skeet/trap competition shooters according to the correspondance sent out by the importer Robert Noia, so yes they were "enthusiasts" as you so sarcastitcally put. Munrubenmuz wrote:Lucky we have the greens because the police are obviously incompetent if they can't follow their own guidelines. The Police (in QLD at least) follow their guidelines just well, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement for more work to be under taken to find the non law abiding holders of firearms or to crack down further on gun related crime. I can't speak for other states. Munrubenmuz wrote:There may well have been (or are) shotguns like that around in Australia for the last hundred years but that doesn't mean it's OK to have them now. Shit, I had a semi-automatic rifles myself before the buyback but that doesn't mean I can own one now. But you can own them now, provided you have a license to do so. It's not like SKS, AK-47s, AR-15s, M14s and the like just don't exist in this country anymore, they still do and in large number no less. Go fo a walk to Cleaver Firearms (I assume you live in Brisbane) and have a look. Also it is commonly known the reason why semi-automatic rifles were a huge part of the ban/reclassification/buyback is because one was used at Port Arthur. Had he used a lever-action shotgun like the Adler you can bet your bottom dollar it would have been restricted just as tightly. Pump action shotguns were also reclassified at the time as they were seen as the single biggest threat against law enforcement officers (based off USA related data at the time, also before the changes in body armour/kevlar changes that are available today). New Zealand doesn't have as tight classification of firearms as Australia does (can own semi-autos more easily, can buy supressors for firearms, can use Airsoft [which funnily enough Australia is one of very few countries in the world where it is illegal]) and yet they have far less issues that we have now but similar firearm ownership per capita as Australia. Congratulations, you plugged "Stolen", "Firearms" and "News" into Google and took the first handful of easy to get results however that doesn't align with the data realised by the Institute of Criminology's National Firearm Theft Monitoring Program where the amount of firearms from year to year was on a decline while firearm ownership was increasing. While it is incredibly hard to source any data on just how many illegal firearms are in circulation, it can be seen that legitimate firearms account for very little of that market (based off reported thefts, although this doesn't cover thefts that weren't reported as the firearm was illegal in the first place, making the owner not a law abiding firearm owner - the whole side of this debate). The Australian Crime Commission (ACC) estimates there are more than 260,000 firearms in the illicit market — 250,000 long-arms and 10,000 handguns.
According to the ACC website, most of those guns have been diverted from the legal market through a variety of means.
"The grey market consists of all long-arms that were not registered, or surrendered as required during the gun buybacks, following the National Firearms Agreement (1996)," the website said.
"Illicit handguns have principally been sourced by criminals who took advantage of differences in state and territory definitions of firearms and other loopholes which have been closed for more than a decade.Munrubenmuz wrote:Where do you think these legally obtained, licensed, stored securely guns might end up?
Responsible gun owners are put out because of these gun laws that's true but as I said previously I have to drink out of a plastic schooner glass because of unhinged fuckheads wandering around society.
Plastic schooner glasses don't eliminate glassings altogether because cockheads will use a stubby or a wine glass or whatever but as a risk management strategy it's a sound approach that leads to a better outcome. The guns would end up in the hands of criminals, just like any other stolen goods. Your analogy of the schooner glass would also be correct, however what you are implying should happen (and directly due to your Adler comments) is that it isn't about the glass it all, it should be a complete ban on alcohol altogether. Munrubenmuz wrote:PaulbagzFC wrote: So best to take away bow and arrows? Spear gun fishing? 90% of knives? Garden spears? Far more difficult, though not impossible, to go on a massacre with a bow and arrow, speargun or a garden spear. Knives are a possibility. Then should we not be restricting them as well? Why can I go into my local sporting good store and buy a compound bow with optics that can hit a 50c piece @ 100 metres without the need of any license or background checks? Munrubenmuz wrote:PaulbagzFC wrote:Heaven forbid someone would have a hobby like sport shooting or to make a living as a professional hunter that helps with things like wildlife conservation. No problem here. Hobbyists will just have to make do with the existing available cache of weapons. Professional shooters are another category altogether and if they can prove they need the Adler then that's something that should be looked at. So you want to restrict the choice of purchase of consumers? To limit what people can choose of one brand over another? Sorry you can't have this car that has more features and a better price point, you HAVE to buy these other crappier cars with less features and is more expensive. Munrubenmuz wrote:Nth Qld Bogans with Rum Pig stickers, 4 CB and UHF antennas, Mack track mudguards and 300 spotlights all over their utes that go pigging and are category A licensed need to be kept well away from the Adler and guns like it. Ha ha. Typed "ute" into google images to find one close to the above description and this was about the 8th photo down. Couldn't have scripted it better. (Kenworth mudguards rather than Mack truck.)  And this is where you break your side of things down and start with the attacks and generilizations (singalling out North Queensland residents) which just throws your whole debate out the window. Would also like to see where/when one of these types of hunters had committed a crime with their firearms, if you could produce some form of statistical data that links stickers on a car, a radio, some anttenas and mud flaps equalling gun related crime I'd be happy to see it. Try not to be anecdotal now, wouldn't want you to be perceived as a fuckwit. -PB
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TheSelectFew
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Manrubz should be banned from this forum. Too often is he allowed to post about things he obviously knows nothing about.
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Condemned666
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if there is something to point out
This is a unique situation involving the individuals, where they all knew each other. The danger with the gun only involved those in the story?
GRANTED if there was no gun they would all still be here, but STILL...
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trident
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paulbagzFC
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trident wrote:http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 Thanks for getting this back on topic. Is pretty crazy when you look at the date gaps for some of those. They really need to reel that shit in. I'm still honestly surprised Obama didn't go harder on gun control, specially once he won his second term. -PB
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marconi101
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paulbagzFC wrote:I'm still honestly surprised Obama didn't go harder on gun control, specially once he won his second term. Because he'd be murdered
He was a man of specific quirks. He believed that all meals should be earned through physical effort. He also contended, zealously like a drunk with a political point, that the third dimension would not be possible if it werent for the existence of water.
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Muz
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It's obvious that you think, despite facts and evidence to the contrary, 7000 rapid fire weapons should be available to gun owners in possession of the least restrictive and easily available category of gun license. You know that license you get when you do the $100 course that takes 6 hours with the 3 breaks for smoko, lunch and then smoko in between and the multiple choice test you have to take that you can study for before by asking them for the booklet. That test do you mean? We differ on what we believe to be fair and reasonable. Fine. paulbagzFC wrote:
And this is where you break your side of things down and start with the attacks and generilizations (singalling out North Queensland residents) which just throws your whole debate out the window.
-PB
I spent years in the Territory and North Qld. I've been shooting many times with clowns/mates exactly like that. Whilst a slight exaggeration on the ute front it's not far from the truth as you would well know. Fuck mate drive out to Charters Towers and have a look around. Every 2nd car is like that. (No, it's not a crime to have a ute like that.) As for your assertion that the Adler is not a Cat D weapon you would know that the only reason it was going to be allowed to be imported was that although it held more than 5 rounds, making it a Cat D, it was a lever action which was not covered by the Cat D status. Fortunately someone was paying attention. You'd also know that the government is looking to close that loophole, possibly retrospectively, which should be fun for all the lads that would then be in possession of a weapon they don't have a license for. As for semi-auto's of course they're still available and you can own them but they're strictly controlled and if you're a Cat A license holder you can go nowhere near them. (Like I said, not having the appropriate license, I had to hand mine back.) paulbagzFC wrote:So you want to restrict the choice of purchase of consumers? Yes I do.
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Muz
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paulbagzFC wrote:While it is incredibly hard to source any data on just how many illegal firearms are in circulation, it can be seen that legitimate firearms account for very little of that market (based off reported thefts, although this doesn't cover thefts that weren't reported as the firearm was illegal in the first place, making the owner not a law abiding firearm owner - the whole side of this debate).
The Australian Crime Commission (ACC) estimates there are more than 260,000 firearms in the illicit market — 250,000 long-arms and 10,000 handguns.
According to the ACC website, most of those guns have been diverted from the legal market through a variety of means.
"The grey market consists of all long-arms that were not registered, or surrendered as required during the gun buybacks, following the National Firearms Agreement (1996)," the website said.
"Illicit handguns have principally been sourced by criminals who took advantage of differences in state and territory definitions of firearms and other loopholes which have been closed for more than a decade.
Wait, what? I though the problem was illegally imported weapons? paulbagzFC wrote: In this country, more money needs to be spent on customs and stopping the flow of illegal firearms into the country, not restricting/tightening the legally abiding firearm owners.
Anyway you'll only have to wait a year before your Bundy rum pigging mates can own one because Tone's jumped into bed with Leyonhjelm and done a slimy deal to get his immigration policies through. The same Tone that promised not to do deals with cross-benchers before he was elected. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-13/adler-shotgun-importation-ban-to-be-lifted-after-leyonhjelm-deal/6694586 Edited by munrubenmuz: 1/9/2015 10:55:05 PM
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Muz
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TheSelectFew wrote:Manrubz should be banned from this forum. Too often is he allowed to post about things he obviously knows nothing about. TheSelectFew should be banned from this forum. Too often he is allowed to post hateful, vitriolic, disdainful, sarcastic and just plain venomous posts. Always playing the man and rarely the ball. Although I'm doubtful, feel free to jump in if you think you can add anything of substance.
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trident
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At least you all agree someone should be banned. The question is who :)
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Benjamin
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paulbagzFC wrote:trident wrote:http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 Thanks for getting this back on topic. Is pretty crazy when you look at the date gaps for some of those. They really need to reel that shit in. I'm still honestly surprised Obama didn't go harder on gun control, specially once he won his second term. -PB I honestly believe he gave it his best shot - but he's outgunned (sorry) in the senate and wouldn't have had a chance of getting any legislation through. Once kiddies are being shot in their classes and the public STILL doesn't get behind a cause, you know a country is f*cked. With regard to licensed gun ownership - I'm with Jim Jeffries. It's a lovely thought that the responsible members of society should be allowed to keep their weapons - but society is messed up and we have to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator, which is pretty f*cking low.
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Muz
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trident wrote:http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 Thanks for linking. I found this page defining a 'mass shooting' very interesting. http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Main_Page
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trident
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Benjamin wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:trident wrote:http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 Thanks for getting this back on topic. Is pretty crazy when you look at the date gaps for some of those. They really need to reel that shit in. I'm still honestly surprised Obama didn't go harder on gun control, specially once he won his second term. -PB I honestly believe he gave it his best shot - but he's outgunned (sorry) in the senate and wouldn't have had a chance of getting any legislation through. Once kiddies are being shot in their classes and the public STILL doesn't get behind a cause, you know a country is f*cked. With regard to licensed gun ownership - I'm with Jim Jeffries. It's a lovely thought that the responsible members of society should be allowed to keep their weapons - but society is messed up and we have to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator, which is pretty f*cking low. Yeah he gave it his best shot but what can you do with all those gun toting redneck republicans blocking progress.
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AzzaMarch
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The sad thing is that the gun debate in the USA isn't actually as polarised as is presented. A vast majority of americans support things like background checks etc.
It is the NRA that prevents any of this happening through lobbying. The problem is that voter turnout is low in the primaries, so only those most passionate (eg "fundamentalist") in outlook bother voting.
So you don't get policies for the centre, you get them for the extremes that vote. Hence why I am glad we have compulsory voting.
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paulbagzFC
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Adler ban lifted thanks to a 5 shot capacity change (lol limiters). Common sense prevails. -PB
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Muz
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Common sense prevails. Seems the Adler may be a Cat D weapon after all. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/nsw-premier-mike-bairds-decision-to-remove-his-police-minister-proves-gamechanger-in-national-adler-debate/news-story/1d1735e8a7d1031d77db2176bdd78eec?nk=e238c1fed4637db2ec13390c0e0dd12c-1480854919AUSTRALIA’S import ban on the lever-action Adler A110 shotgun can be lifted next year with a national agreement on a new D licence, limiting it to a handful of professional shooters.
The deal will act as a de facto ban, with the gun only able to be imported and owned by limited to a tiny number of professional shooters who specialise in pest and feral animal control on a D licence.
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paulbagzFC
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Only for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB
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Muz
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+xOnly for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB That was never the argument.
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paulbagzFC
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+x+xOnly for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB That was never the argument. What was then? -PB
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Muz
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+x+x+xOnly for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB That was never the argument. What was then? -PB That a 8 shot shotgun should be available to Cat A shooters.
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TheSelectFew
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+x+x+x+xOnly for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB That was never the argument. What was then? -PB That a 8 shot shotgun should be available to Cat A shooters. Moving the goal posts, are we?
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+xOnly for a 7 shot version lol 5 shot will remain in an easy catergory. -PB That was never the argument. What was then? -PB That a 8 shot shotgun should be available to Cat A shooters. Moving the goal posts, are we? Learn to read. From the previous page I wrote. "Restricting 7000 pre-ordered shotguns with an ability to shoot 8 rounds in 8 seconds that were to be sold to gun owners holding the least restrictive and easiest available class of gun license is a good thing."
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paulbagzFC
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And yet if this manages to pass, there will still be firearms capable of doing exactly that still in Category A. Thus all this mountains out of molehills would have achieved nothing in the greater scheme. -PB
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Muz
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+x[quote]And yet if this manages to pass, there will still be firearms capable of doing exactly that still in Category A.
"That is likely to trigger calls for a taxpayer-funded national buyback of thousands of retrofitted Adler shotguns already in the country that will be rendered illegal if they have a magazine capacity of more than five."
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paulbagzFC
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Yeah that's only talking about Adlers lol. Nothing to do with other firearms with capacity greater than 5. Which I say again, the logical is retarded. All this to take of two whole rounds out of the chamber lol. -PB
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